NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • TheQueensPeaceTheQueensPeace That's Classified
    Posts: 74
    the more i hear of the boyle treatment? the more i think that would have been just as radical and ironically enough, more upbeat AND loyal to Fleming? Just a hunch. Could be wrong. But.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Yes, the Bond/Moneypenny relationship had huge potential following SF and the writers just let it whither away. Ironically, I think NH has become a better actress over the years.
  • TheQueensPeaceTheQueensPeace That's Classified
    Posts: 74
    They could and arguably should have merged Nomi and Moneypenny's roles. IE: Eve returned to fieldwork and resumed action, took Bond's code number in tribute, to protect it once he was gone? THAT would have made sense, logically and thematically imho
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Anyone else get the feeling this film could have been 3 hours+? There is so much I think that is cut and glossed over. For a film as long as it is, I think it felt in a rush to get to the climax
  • Posts: 4,615
    Makes perfect sense - five years is perfectly acceptable re developement gap. Nomi says she had 2 years experience so Eve would have had more experience than Nomi. Imagine what a great reveal it would have been if Bond found an imposter at his home in Jamaica with a hand to hand fight within the shadows and then it was revelated as Eve. Also, you have rapor/good will built in rather than trying to build a new character that we will never see again. Little by little, we seem to be re-writing this mess (IMHO)
  • TheQueensPeaceTheQueensPeace That's Classified
    Posts: 74
    btw is anyone actually depressed /in a slump since seeing the film? See, I would usually give myself a gigantic kick in the arse because it's fiction. But on this occasion? There IS a cultural trend at work here: unearned, rushed, mawkish hero deaths in haste, onscreen, thereby one by one toppling the kind of escapist symbols that punctuated life's mundanities via vicarious fix of escapism. Yes, Fleming occasionally toyed with killing Bond. Yes, there are darker, deeper books and films in the series. Yet even those had a fairly immediate promise of somewhere to go and life moved differently, back then. Just a feeling: it is ok to feel legit deflated by this, even if the film is good, which of course, it is. There is a verisimilitude problem, though. Had they killed 007 in QOS I would have 'got' it. But NTTD is a movie with nanotech and a bionic eye..it just does not 'gel' or something?? rant dun. sorry ;) x
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 11
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Anyone else get the feeling this film could have been 3 hours+? There is so much I think that is cut and glossed over. For a film as long as it is, I think it felt in a rush to get to the climax

    That's normally the sign of a bad screenplay/movie. I think fans got a lot of propaganda and bad mouthing about what Boyle was doing and it looks like he was right sticking to his guns about Bond shouldn't die and the problems with the script.

    I would have loved to have seen what Boyles film would have been. There where definitely a lot of raised eyebrows when they got rid of an multi Oscar winning director who is widely acclaimed and replaced him with a director who mainly has done tv series and a only a few major budget films

  • JohnBarryJohnBarry Dublin
    Posts: 34
    I hate how/why Bond died. I really do but it is done now. Somehow retrospectively undoing that in Bond 26 though whatever plot contrivances would be a massive jump the shark moment for those fans who don't have a problem with his death, and more importantly, the general public.

    Bond 26 will be a hard reboot. In fact, even if Craig's Bond did survive NTTD, there would be far too much baggage for another actor to make the role his own without a hard reboot. I can't imagine another actor having to deal with Craig's Bond's past.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 11
    There IS a cultural trend at work here: unearned, rushed, mawkish hero deaths in haste, onscreen, thereby one by one toppling the kind of escapist symbols that punctuated life's mundanities via vicarious fix of escapism

    It's the modern social media 'buzz' trend is what all movies are after. People will go to see him die. I remember the people who weren't massive marvel fans rushing to the cinema because they heard Iron Man dies at the end. In fact the past two Bond films have felt almost like they have tried to mimic Avengers, bring more of 'team' into action sequences M (even fighting in Spectre), Moneypenny etc, the deaths of major characters, the arcing story etc.

  • Posts: 346
    Smeets wrote: »
    If they have to replace Daniel Craig anyway, then I don't know why they didn't just do so after Spectre. After all, he just walked off into the sunset with his girlfriend.
    We could have been spared all this uncertainty and risk if they had recast for Bond 25. I wanted Craig to do 25 but not if it meant ending it like this.

    Craig delayed his decision to return. It was up in the air, I guess. He was returning/he wasn't. B Broccoli got him to agree to come back but SPECTRE felt like his final Bond film. They were boxed into a corner because NTTD couldn't have the same ending as SP.
  • TheQueensPeaceTheQueensPeace That's Classified
    Posts: 74
    For me? Bond and Craig both end with THAT beautiful shot on a rooftop amidst a sea of union jacks in SKYFALL. It was the last time that Britain and Bond felt 'right' imho. Endless missions ahead we need not have seen. Or reboot then, whatever. SPECTRE wrote them into a corner and No Time To Die squashed us all in said corner. I do wish them well, btw. And NTTD IS a good movie for most part. And it was time to grow up /grow out of Bond anyway for me, perhaps as a 41 year old man! But even so. It is deflating.
  • Posts: 4,615
    I think it's a good sign to care about fictional characters. (within reason), thats the whole point about art , to create emotion from something "man made". So when writers inherit a character who has a huge emotional connection with the audience (I keep thinking about Spock and of course, Luke S), its a huge responsibility and, arguably, much harder than writing from a clean sheet. Over the years, we have seen writers either succeed or fail with the challenge. This latest team were "standing on the shoulders of giants" re the cultural heritage of Bond (is there a bigger movie character?) a very precious cargo (mixing my metaphors). I do think that you get a better result when hiring one person who just "gets it". This is not rocket science. If you have three people and the script is still not right, then hire a forth to pollish? why not a fifth? etc these are warning signs IMHO that things are going in the wrong direction. Even NTTD fans surely can see that this is a script by committee?
  • TheQueensPeaceTheQueensPeace That's Classified
    Posts: 74
    Agree RE Spock and Skywalker. Both had earned Arthurian deaths, too. And incidentally, NOTHING against Bond mirroring trends (hence I think Brosnan back in Bond 26 to retroactively pass torch to an 80s/90s period piece Cavill is an idea to match the trend for bringing back old actors without doing the 'code name' malarkey). But copying commercial structure is not the same as importing identical motif. Star Wars and Trek are team universes and though Spock and Luke loomed large, their existence was not the brand in itself. Bond, by contrast..well..suspect you get my logic..
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 11
    grow out of Bond anyway for me, perhaps as a 41 year old man! But even so. It is deflating.

    Most of my Bond film pals have ditched the film already and are mostly talking about the new Mission Impossible next year. I wonder how much those films dented the franchise most people find the MI stunts superior and the films basically gross the same now. Guaranteed pure escapism, rather than the 'which beloved character is dying next' the Craig era films started since Skyfall with M. Then again maybe they too might jump on the hype train and Ethan Hunt won't make it out of his next mission
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    There's a lovely symmetry to the way Craig's era began with craignotbond and appears to be ending with craignotdead. :))

    But yeah, Bond 26 will have nothing to do with Bond 21-25.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 11
    Interestingly in the Craig era no action sequences featured the Bond theme if i'm not mistaken (driving the DB5 in SF aside), they always happily used it in the trailers but when it came to the film they never did it, like it was almost toxic to them?

    No tribute at the end for Sean Connery is weird too.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited October 2021 Posts: 2,641
    "There must be no regrets. No false sentiment. He must play the role which she expected of him. The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent. The man who was only a silhouette"

    @Pierce2Daniel firstly great post, don't agree with a lot of it but I enjoyed it and I understand your point of view, very well written as always my friend. I didn't quote it all so we didn't clog up the thread.

    I love that Fleming quote, quite honestly that bit has stuck with me more than anything else from the novels. Those few sentences encapsulate everything James Bond is, and as always should be but it also describes why No Time To Die, is betrayal of the character of James Bond

    He should always remain "a silhouette" although now with NTTD, he's been acknowledged by his MI6, likely with an obituary, and now has a "wife" and child who know his story and will continue to tell it but crucially know of his heroism. James Bond is an unsung hero and giving a big ending feels wrong

    The film should have ended with him knowing his family were safe, have him staring death in the face (You Only Live Twice novel) and then have him attempt to escape.

    Leave it up to us the audience, that way James Bond lives and potentially dies as, The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent, the man who was only a silhouette
  • Posts: 10
    I'm going to see it again in a few hours. It'll be my second viewing so far.
    Upon my first time seeing it, I was completely blown away. It was so much to take in and I got way too emotional. Don't think I've ever cried in the cinema before.

    As of right now, I love the film. I've heard people say that it gets even better after the second viewing so I have high hopes. This time around I know what to expect and I know where I'm headed. After today I'll probably see it two or three more times.

    Does anyone know how long the cinema run will be?
  • Posts: 10
    GunnerWho wrote: »
    Anyone think Paloma will get a spin off

    I would love that. I've never been interested in any form of spin-off, but this I'd be on board with.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited October 2021 Posts: 2,641
    Double post apologies
  • Jordo007 wrote: »


    The film should have ended with him knowing his family were safe, have him staring death in the face (You Only Live Twice novel) and then have him attempt to escape.

    Leave it up to us the audience, that way James Bond lives and potentially dies as, The tough man of the world. The Secret Agent, the man who was only a silhouette

    This sounds such a better ending than what we got imo.
    I wonder if the Boyle ending would have been like this
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 389
    Given we all know what happens now, I thought one of the most telling things for the future came on the red carpet when Craig was asked who should succeed him and he answered "He didn't care as it wasn't his problem", well sorry Dan but it is of your making as I think it seems clear who pushed for the death scene. No good or well known actor worth his salt is going to take the next movie except for money or if the script is banging.

    @JB770721 I think your right M:I has taken over a lot of Bond's Mantel, the problem I have with the current incumbents of EON is that they've become followers rather than innovators. It started with CR trying to be like Jason Bourne, now we have the continuity themes like the MCU.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Re the ending, if you take all hope from the character, you also take it from the audience. Is the correct interpretation of the ending that Bond is a broken man and has given up fighting? given up hope? My interpretation could be wrong and I'm missing something. I was trying to think of iconic movie deaths where you can see the character still trying up to their last gasp (is this not the defintion of tense drama?) - Khan ("For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee") and, ironically, Malone ("what are you prepared to do?")
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I think it says a lot about the fan bases and this isn't a compliment that you are looking at ways to undo what happened.

    Sorry to those accepting this, this isn't levelled at you.

    The ending was always going to be divisive and if you don't think EON didn't know that you aren't very smart.

    Craig's timeline was likely to be ended even before SPECTRE made it much more explicitly.

    This isn't what happened in the last 20 films, it's bad enough hearing people trying to connect DC's era to 1962 - 2002.

    Can't we just accept that Daniel's Bond isn't coming back and even if they hadn't made it quite as they did, I don't think they'd be recasting the actor in his era, the era was not going to be continued and I think that was something that was decided a lot earlier than some would like to think.

    Regardless of the thinking that the main actor should have never had this much power, he did and in all fairness he didn't run the series into the ground from a financial point of view and also it has just been reported that NTTD has had the biggest UK opening weekend of any Bond film. So yes this is a terrible place to be in. I imagine all in involved are hanging their heads in shame at this situation.

    I just think all you acting precious over this decision have a high inflated idea of what significance you have in the big scheme of things. I didn't like SPECTRE at all and have even entered into an on and off project with @peter to do a new version of the Bond 24.

    Though this is just for fun, I've accepted it is part of this overall arc as much as I really don't like the film but have no illusions mine and Peter's ideas are going anywhere but having a bit of fun.

    Seriously writing to EON, we are entering into SW fan boy territory here. Yes I'm sure BB & MGW are reading it now and thinking yes we must take into account miffed Bond fan when we consider what we do next.

    I also think that those that really didn't like this era can now skip it like I get to LTK and go that was the end of that Bond for me and then go straight to CR.

    I have no qualms with it and that universe is loosely connected to the TD films. Whereas DC's films aren't in one iota anything to do with the previous era of films.

    It should make it quite easy to ignore it if you are that offended with how this era concluded.

  • Shardlake wrote: »
    I think it says a lot about the fan bases and this isn't a compliment that you are looking at ways to undo what happened.

    Sorry to those accepting this, this isn't levelled at you.

    The ending was always going to be divisive and if you don't think EON didn't know that you aren't very smart.

    Craig's timeline was likely to be ended even before SPECTRE made it much more explicitly.

    This isn't what happened in the last 20 films, it's bad enough hearing people trying to connect DC's era to 1962 - 2002.

    Can't we just accept that Daniel's Bond isn't coming back and even if they hadn't made it quite as they did, I don't think they'd be recasting the actor in his era, the era was not going to be continued and I think that was something that was decided a lot earlier than some would like to think.

    Regardless of the thinking that the main actor should have never had this much power, he did and in all fairness he didn't run the series into the ground from a financial point of view and also it has just been reported that NTTD has had the biggest UK opening weekend of any Bond film. So yes this is a terrible place to be in. I imagine all in involved are hanging their heads in shame at this situation.

    I just think all you acting precious over this decision have a high inflated idea of what significance you have in the big scheme of things. I didn't like SPECTRE at all and have even entered into an on and off project with @peter to do a new version of the Bond 24.

    Though this is just for fun, I've accepted it is part of this overall arc as much as I really don't like the film but have no illusions mine and Peter's ideas are going anywhere but having a bit of fun.

    Seriously writing to EON, we are entering into SW fan boy territory here. Yes I'm sure BB & MGW are reading it now and thinking yes we must take into account miffed Bond fan when we consider what we do next.

    I also think that those that really didn't like this era can now skip it like I get to LTK and go that was the end of that Bond for me and then go straight to CR.

    I have no qualms with it and that universe is loosely connected to the TD films. Whereas DC's films aren't in one iota anything to do with the previous era of films.

    It should make it quite easy to ignore it if you are that offended with how this era concluded.
    Agreed, I don't know why some fans are hell bent on forcing some sort of continuity onto a franchise that has little to no regard for continuity. Bond is like Batman in that sense, you can reset, recast, reboot all you want. They even have multiple going at the same time. Craig Bond is dead. James Bond will return. The king is dead, long live the king.
  • 007bondUK007bondUK England
    Posts: 25
    JB770721 wrote: »
    It seems however good Casino Royale was it opened this can of messy lazy writing worms for the series

    It all happened at the end when he shot Mr White on the steps. It could have been left there but they didn't its like they didn't have any credible ideas and decided to run with the story arc of a shady organisation they couldn't really flesh it out or get it connected without it being stilted.

    It's telling that the film in the middle, not connected to any of this 'arcing story', was Skyfall. The biggest grossing film of them all and a critical, fan and overall success. That says it all.

    This is spot on!
  • Posts: 831
    the more i hear of the boyle treatment? the more i think that would have been just as radical and ironically enough, more upbeat AND loyal to Fleming? Just a hunch. Could be wrong. But.

    Has more come out about what the treatment actually was?

    Here's what I don't get about the supposed "disagreement" --

    Killing Bond was clearly their big idea, goal, hook, whatever, from the get-go. Probably the condition that got Daniel Craig to come back. This whole film is built around that idea, and leading up to it. Every decision they made clearly ladders toward it.

    So if Boyle was against that key hook, why did he ever agree to do the film in the first place?

    Surely they didn't work together for months and months with a major disagreement in place about the very core of the film. That would just be silly. And certainly Boyle wouldn't sign on to something he hated, knowing he'd just be overruled in the end. He may have been the director, but Bond is a producer's franchise. The buck was always going to stop with Barbara and Daniel.

    I can't wait for someone to do a full breakdown of what the Boyle/Hodge script was.
  • Shardlake wrote: »
    I think it says a lot about the fan bases and this isn't a compliment that you are looking at ways to undo what happened.

    Sorry to those accepting this, this isn't levelled at you.

    The ending was always going to be divisive and if you don't think EON didn't know that you aren't very smart.

    Craig's timeline was likely to be ended even before SPECTRE made it much more explicitly.

    This isn't what happened in the last 20 films, it's bad enough hearing people trying to connect DC's era to 1962 - 2002.

    Can't we just accept that Daniel's Bond isn't coming back and even if they hadn't made it quite as they did, I don't think they'd be recasting the actor in his era, the era was not going to be continued and I think that was something that was decided a lot earlier than some would like to think.

    Regardless of the thinking that the main actor should have never had this much power, he did and in all fairness he didn't run the series into the ground from a financial point of view and also it has just been reported that NTTD has had the biggest UK opening weekend of any Bond film. So yes this is a terrible place to be in. I imagine all in involved are hanging their heads in shame at this situation.

    I just think all you acting precious over this decision have a high inflated idea of what significance you have in the big scheme of things. I didn't like SPECTRE at all and have even entered into an on and off project with @peter to do a new version of the Bond 24.

    Though this is just for fun, I've accepted it is part of this overall arc as much as I really don't like the film but have no illusions mine and Peter's ideas are going anywhere but having a bit of fun.

    Seriously writing to EON, we are entering into SW fan boy territory here. Yes I'm sure BB & MGW are reading it now and thinking yes we must take into account miffed Bond fan when we consider what we do next.

    I also think that those that really didn't like this era can now skip it like I get to LTK and go that was the end of that Bond for me and then go straight to CR.

    I have no qualms with it and that universe is loosely connected to the TD films. Whereas DC's films aren't in one iota anything to do with the previous era of films.

    It should make it quite easy to ignore it if you are that offended with how this era concluded.

    Agree with what your saying, not really bothered anymore, I just think it's a gamble that may well pay off in the short term but may harm the future of the series going forward.
  • Posts: 1,490
    patb wrote: »
    Re the ending, if you take all hope from the character, you also take it from the audience. Is the correct interpretation of the ending that Bond is a broken man and has given up fighting? given up hope? My interpretation could be wrong and I'm missing something. I was trying to think of iconic movie deaths where you can see the character still trying up to their last gasp (is this not the defintion of tense drama?) - Khan ("For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee") and, ironically, Malone ("what are you prepared to do?")

    The moment Bond is shot in the side, it's clear he's a dead man. Then he's poisoned, so even if he gets out, he can never touch Madeleine or his daughter ever again. So the scene is about Bond facing his death at the end, and I found that personally very emotional and powerful. Craig's performance here is superb. A man who wants to live, wants a future with a wife and a child, but he will never have that in the end. He's given his all for duty and country. So it's tragic and, in that way, very poignant.

  • Posts: 87
    Agreed, I don't know why some fans are hell bent on forcing some sort of continuity onto a franchise that has little to no regard for continuity. Bond is like Batman in that sense, you can reset, recast, reboot all you want. They even have multiple going at the same time. Craig Bond is dead. James Bond will return. The king is dead, long live the king.

    So from now on, when watching the last movie of an actor, instead of wondering how Bond will do, people will be wondering how the newly introduced characters and Bond will die?
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