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Reevaluating Madeleine Swann (SPOILERS)

jobojobo
edited October 2021 in No Time To Die Posts: 7,507
After Spectre I was slightly underwhelmed by Lea Seydoux' performance and the character overall. With No Time To Die I wonder whether she is a candidate for best Bond girl ever? Let's discuss:
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Comments

  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,109
    Vast improvement in NTTD compared to SP, I was pleasantly surprised the change of director no doubt made a big difference in Seydoux character.

    Both Bond and Madeline were more animated, charming and full of life in the new film compared to SP.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,031
    Watching NTTD I thought she came out as blander than in SP. Not among the flashy types of Bond girls. Which is not a bad thing in real life, so I'd rate her as more the kind of next-door girlfriend "material" (I apologize for this term). Trouble is that with her background one would have to fear that her psyche is probably really screwed up.

    If one looks at it from a Bond Girl Eye Candy approach, she probably finishes three out of three (Ana de Armas clearly takes the cake, and not just in looks). But then we're all past this in current times, aren't we?

    And I appreciate that you added the second "n" while I was writing this.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Watching NTTD I thought she came out as blander than in SP. Not among the flashy types of Bond girls. Which is not a bad thing in real life, so I'd rate her as more the kind of next-door girlfriend "material" (I apologize for this term). Trouble is that with her background one would have to fear that her psyche is probably really screwed up.

    If one looks at it from a Bond Girl Eye Candy approach, she probably finishes three out of three (Ana de Armas clearly takes the cake, and not just in looks). But then we're all past this in current times, aren't we?

    And I appreciate that you added the second "n" while I was writing this.

    I respectfully disagree. I think her performance was absolutely superb, hitting all the right notes the script required: Charm, emotional depth, resilience and chemistry with Bond. I can't fault it at all!

    And she definitely delivers on the eye candy front too. (Although I agree Ana De Armas in that dress was... well... hard to resist!) :P

    Regarding the 's', it was down to autocorrect, not me...
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,031
    jobo wrote: »

    Regarding the 's', it was down to autocorrect, not me...

    Tell your autocorrect it was an "n"! :-)
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »

    Regarding the 's', it was down to autocorrect, not me...

    Tell your autocorrect it was an "n"! :-)

    Haha! It's been too many glasses of wine for me this evening, no doubt... ;))
  • belleswannbelleswann britain
    Posts: 35
    Madeleine was the only reason I cared about anything with this film, I thought she was great in this and the bond she had with her daughter was wonderful you really believe they were mother and child. I wanted her and Bond to have more scenes together but her scenes towards the end made me believe she truly loved him and were some of the most emotional I've seen in a Bond film. Even though this film was not for me in many ways I'm glad she makes it in the end and if it had to end the way it did I'm glad it ended with her. Lea gave a brilliant performance and was by far my favorite of the film.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,031
    jobo wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »

    Regarding the 's', it was down to autocorrect, not me...

    Tell your autocorrect it was an "n"! :-)

    Haha! It's been too many glasses of wine for me this evening, no doubt... ;))

    I can totally relate to that, since I'm having a similar party with my wife. Cheers!
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    edited October 2021 Posts: 154
    Better than Spectre? Yes. Good overall? I'm still undecided. The PTS tried hard to give a personality to a character that was lacking one in her first film, but it was still a scene that was already told in Spectre. I think my biggest issue was that I had no investment in her going in, and they are already a happy couple from the off. I'm not sure if it was meant to be a misunderstanding, but when the hotel concierge mentions "your wife" I took it as golden, and I hadn't had enough of her to take that jump as a viewer.

    The scenes with Bond also didn't do all that much to cement a "best Bond Girl ever" vote either. I liked the scene with Safin, I liked the build up to the meeting with Blofeld, but less so in her scenes with Bond after the pre-titles. The Breakfast Apples scene seemed a bit too out of character for all involved, and for the last act their interactions were not all that impactful (bare in mind I am not a fan of the ending!).

    The Sarah Connor outro also descended through the barrel or cheesy, right into the gutter for me.

    Bad Bond girl? No. Exceptional in any way? No.

    That being said, I've only seen the film once and the ending left the biggest mark on me as I walked out, so perhaps a second viewing on Blu-Ray will change my opinion as I have no doubt forgotten quite a bit of the 2hrs43 by now.
  • BelinusBelinus Scotland
    Posts: 48
    I thought Madeleine was a great character. With her background she was perfectly placed to understand Bond and his life. Similarly, Bond didn’t need to hide anything from her and would also be able to appreciate what she has gone through. I still don’t know what the big secret was (surely not the masked man?) and don’t get why neither seemed to fight for the relationship after Italy but overall she is the one Bond girl I could have seen him living happily ever after with.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,031
    Belinus wrote: »
    ...but overall she is the one Bond girl I could have seen him living happily ever after with.
    Which is, cynically speaking, the reason why one of them had to die in the end. Otherwise it wouldn't have been a true Bond Film and people would complain. OK, I'm digressing.

  • leas_moleleas_mole love is the promise of suffering
    Posts: 574
    Madeleine was very underwritten in Spectre. Lea did what she could with the script at the time. Yet she still had some good reviews from film critics such as Mark Kermode and Peter Bradshaw

    She has been given a much better script in NTTD and is in a lot more scenes and that has allowed her to show off her acting chops.

    On her ranking as a Bond Girl? I do think that does depend on whether that person believes in the romance or not. Also the ending is very polarising to say the least - just look at the opposing views in this forum alone!

    For me, Madeleine is the best Bond girl, or should I say woman. But I am biased as my username and avatar shows!
  • quantumspectrequantumspectre argentina
    Posts: 61
    she is on my avatar, so to me she is a good bond girl, looks and plays a grounded girl, not a femme fatale like vesper lynd. in many ways i like her more than vesper.
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,610
    I also think that the use of Madeleine 's character was a lot better in NTTD than in SP. In the recent Bond girls ranking game I ranked her as 24th out of 26 for SP. For NTTD, I'd rank her around 14th.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,466
    Absolutely loved her in NTTD. Still not as much as Vesper and Tracy, but I was far more convinced of her being Bond’s next true love this time around. I have her from SP around the middle of my Bond girl rankings and her from NTTD at #5 right now. Seydoux is really likable to me.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    I got that Madeleine was meant to be a mysterious character in SP, someone you weren't going to 'get' in one reveal, but I thought there was a misstep and she came over as distant and hands-off instead. I didn't believe the love between her and Bond, as I did between Vesper and Bond. I don't know if that was the rushed third act re-writes in SP, the direction or a lack of the natural chemistry between Lea and Craig that had been there in abundance between Eva Green and Craig. Vesper and Bond - I buy that completely as the love of his life. Madeleine...not so much. Mind you, Eva Green is the most glorious creature that ever lived, so I could be biased here...
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    I buy Bond and Vesper, but I also buy Bond and Madeleine. I see them in SP as two lonely people. Both are orphans, and neither has a 'significant other' at the moment. When we see them together, they almost exist in isolation, cut off from the rest of the world. A desolate clinic high up in snow-covered mountains, a seemingly underpopulated hotel in Morocco, a practically empty train car, a desert, deserted London streets, ... It's as if the film is telling us that these two loners were meant to find each other in a social void. I appreciate the romantic quality of that, perhaps because as an introvert, I find beauty in a virtually anonymous togetherness, in two people growing close and feeling the need to be with each other without the words actually being spoken. There's something tragic but sweet at the same time about the quietness of their romance. Bond and Vesper got electric after the torture scene, but Bond and Madeleine are slowly gravitating towards each other. The latter is my kind of romance. So I'm probably biased too. ;-)
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Some really good points there, actually. They're both ghosts in the world (spectres, if you will), their emotional isolation paralleling the physical isolation of the settings. And just as Bond and Madeleine don't express their growing feelings explicitly, neither does the script make those elements overt - but yes, they're definitely there, I see just what you mean. Thanks for that - it's not often you're given a whole new perspective on a film you've seen dozens of times!
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I buy Bond and Vesper, but I also buy Bond and Madeleine. I see them in SP as two lonely people. Both are orphans, and neither has a 'significant other' at the moment. When we see them together, they almost exist in isolation, cut off from the rest of the world. A desolate clinic high up in snow-covered mountains, a seemingly underpopulated hotel in Morocco, a practically empty train car, a desert, deserted London streets, ... It's as if the film is telling us that these two loners were meant to find each other in a social void. I appreciate the romantic quality of that, perhaps because as an introvert, I find beauty in a virtually anonymous togetherness, in two people growing close and feeling the need to be with each other without the words actually being spoken. There's something tragic but sweet at the same time about the quietness of their romance. Bond and Vesper got electric after the torture scene, but Bond and Madeleine are slowly gravitating towards each other. The latter is my kind of romance. So I'm probably biased too. ;-)


    Well put, and I agree. It's as if their romance is inevitable because they are the only people who can truly understand each other. They are both 'damaged goods' to paraphraze a Bond villain. I suppose that's what makes the film particularly heartbreaking, not only the ending but also in the PTS, beautifuly acted by both. I find Lea's acting to be extraordinary in that scene on the train.

    Adding to your narrative about the introvert nature of the relationship, I think it is quite significant that Lea Seydoux herself is introvert and plays the role that way. Interestingly I think that is one of the reasons why some people don't warm to her. In the modern world we are programmed to like extroverts just like Ana De Armas is. Shyness is often confused with "coldness" or even "arrogance". I know this well from personal experience... An introvert's charm can be harder to detect, but I think Madeleine has it in spades.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited December 2021 Posts: 4,516
    I don't believe it between Vesper and Bond. After QOS i believed Bond have trouble with her death, but he was used by her. So there was no love by them, she loved guy we see at the end of QOS who cheat on her with that canadian girl. But i also said Eva Green is not my type and i prefer Maggie Gyllenhaal as both girls out of my league but Maggie has humor and mabey more my taste of interlect. That last thing is what i like in Ana on second side too.

    Madeline and Bond. For a whyle a lot people believe she going to be a trater, there use that in NTTD. That works verywell with one thing there did right with Blofeld. Also stil a bit with Ash who for some time believe be father of Mathilde. Becaude he was her bodyguard. But there fail with her Safin, but this also have something to do of expecting her a trater.

    Only scene i liked Madeline in Spectre be at 'l American and also there NTTD be succesfull refer twice to (French talking, talking about hidden place of Mr White)

    I wish to see more romance scenes in Italy from them. Believe it a bit more.

    With my first steps with OHMSS i first hate Tracy and don't believe it too till i discover she dare him/play with him. Like she was denie it first.

    Funny that take more time to see then between Harry and Ginny (Harry Potter).
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited December 2021 Posts: 3,152
    Dude, Eva Green is the most glorious creature that ever lived. This's not a subjective opinion, man, it's an entirely objective fact - the only reason that life came to exist on this planet is so that one day, Eva Green would be born! Hang on, did I say that out loud?! ;)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,120
    Since I already loved Léa in SP, her giving another great performance in NTTD makes Madeleine a candidate for my absolute favourite Bond girl.
  • ZarozzorZarozzor
    Posts: 207
    I’ve grown to like her more recently. There’s still around 7 or 8 Bond girls I like better, but she’s still top notch.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited December 2021 Posts: 2,641
    Having watched NTTD again I wish she hadn't returned.

    I like Lea, she's a great actress and NTTD gave her more chance to shine but it felt like a false start. When we see Bond and Madeline in love at the beginning its all too brief, then Vesper is mentioned and it shows how this romance pales in comparison.

    It's nobody's fault in this film, the mistake can be traced back to Spectre. Placing Bond and Madeline's love scene after the fight with Hinx was a mistake, every audience I saw it with laughed when they burst into the cabin together, nobody in any audience thought these two characters were in love

    Every time NTTD cuts back to Madeline, the story starts to drag, as if to say we need to conclude this story rather than have something new.

    If only Bond had politely rejected Nomi and Paloma, then it would have shown he still wasn't over Madeline and cemented his love for her even when she was off screen
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,466
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Having watched NTTD again I wish she hadn't returned.

    I like Lea, she's a great actress and NTTD gave her more chance to shine but it felt like a false start. When we see Bond and Madeline in love at the beginning its all too brief, then Vesper is mentioned and it shows how this romance pales in comparison.

    It's nobody's fault in this film, the mistake can be traced back to Spectre. Placing Bond and Madeline's love scene after the fight with Hinx was a mistake, every audience I saw it with laughed when they burst into the cabin together, nobody in any audience thought these two characters were in love

    Every time NTTD cuts back to Madeline, the story starts to drag, as if to say we need to conclude this story rather than have something new.

    If only Bond had politely rejected Nomi and Paloma, then it would have shown he still wasn't over Madeline and cemented his love for her even when she was off screen

    I’m glad you brought that last paragraph up. Rewatching it again right now, Bond seems to not have a particular sexual interest in either of them really. He doesn’t make any moves, and even seems slightly uncomfortable when Paloma starts undressing him. I feel like there are nice subtle hints there that show he never fell out of love with Madeleine.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited December 2021 Posts: 2,641
    Yeah mate I caught that last time I watched it as well, it's very matter of fact from Bond. Although I think having him pass up the opportunity, especially with Paloma given their chemistry, would cement his speech to Madeline later in Norway. We the audience would have seen he's still not over her and it would have had more an emotional punch
    Just my thoughts
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited December 2021 Posts: 3,152
    Although he's definitely up for it with Nomi til she puts the block on. Similarly, his eyes light up after Paloma pulls him into the room and starts to unbutton his shirt - Bond doesn't stop her, it's Paloma that backs off and tells him he's got the wrong idea; she even pulls a bemused face at the very thought. As soon as Paloma's made it clear that she's not interested, he's literally hands-off with her and becomes courteous and respectful of her. In the light of Fukunaga's comment that Connery's Bond was a rapist, I suspect that this part of the scene was done to demonstrate that CraigBond actually does take no for answer. Righting historical wrongs and all that.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited December 2021 Posts: 12,480
    Madeleine in NTTD is amazing, superb, and she became one of my favorite Bond girls/women ever. Believable, charming, subdued, a realistic love and genuine warmth between her and Bond. Lea is outstanding in this movie - giving a subtle, beautiful, and very appropriate performance. I was so pleased to see her as the film unfolded. I did not care much for Spectre, or their relationship in Spectre. It felt cookie cutter empty but fun, like in a Moore film (and I love Roger as Bond).

    Bond is still Bond, and his attitude toward Paloma and Nomi to me fit what the loner, hurt, just surviving thank you, getting on with it person he withdrew into. There are layers in NTTD that are just so good. It moves so well, that it needs at least 2 or 3 viewings to absorb much of what it offers. I saw it 3 times in the cinema, and I enjoyed it - and Lea and Daniel together - more with each viewing.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited December 2021 Posts: 2,641
    Venutius wrote: »
    Although he's definitely up for it with Nomi til she puts the block on. Similarly, his eyes light up after Paloma pulls him into the room and starts to unbutton his shirt - Bond doesn't stop her, it's Paloma that backs off and tells him he's got the wrong idea; she even pulls a bemused face at the very thought. As soon as Paloma's made it clear that she's not interested, he's literally hands-off with her and becomes courteous and respectful of her. In the light of Fukunaga's comment that Connery's Bond was a rapist, I suspect that this part of the scene was done to demonstrate that CraigBond actually does take no for answer. Righting historical wrongs and all that.

    Agree with your post mate, you're right.

    It's a shame that the producers felt they had to right historical wrongs, instead of just telling the story within the world of the 5 film arc they've created.

    I don't think Craig's Bond has ever been creepy with women, it's a shame they had to give him a scene were he came across as out of touch and even undesirable, to hammer home how progressive this era is. Instead of being subtle as they have been in recent times

    A completely out of character moment
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    4EverBonded wrote: »
    Madeleine in NTTD is amazing, superb, and she became one of my favorite Bond girls/women ever. Believable, charming, subdued, a realistic love and genuine warmth between her and Bond. Lea is outstanding in this movie - giving a subtle, beautiful, and very appropriate performance. I was so pleased to see her as the film unfolded. I did not care much for Spectre, or their relationship in Spectre. It felt cookie cutter empty but fun, like in a Moore film (and I love Roger as Bond).

    Bond is still Bond, and his attitude toward Paloma and Nomi to me fit what the loner, hurt, just surviving thank you, getting on with it person he withdrew into. There are layers in NTTD that are just so good. It moves so well, that it needs at least 2 or 3 viewings to absorb much of what it offers. I saw it 3 times in the cinema, and I enjoyed it - and Lea and Daniel together - more with each viewing.

    @4EverBonded said it so more eloquently than I ever could. I'll just add I fell in love with Madeleine hard in this film; such an emotional and genuine performance, where was this in Spectre (likely lost in an undercooked Spectre script)?
  • BlondeBondBlondeBond
    Posts: 66
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Although he's definitely up for it with Nomi til she puts the block on. Similarly, his eyes light up after Paloma pulls him into the room and starts to unbutton his shirt - Bond doesn't stop her, it's Paloma that backs off and tells him he's got the wrong idea; she even pulls a bemused face at the very thought. As soon as Paloma's made it clear that she's not interested, he's literally hands-off with her and becomes courteous and respectful of her. In the light of Fukunaga's comment that Connery's Bond was a rapist, I suspect that this part of the scene was done to demonstrate that CraigBond actually does take no for answer. Righting historical wrongs and all that.

    Agree with your post mate, you're right.

    It's a shame that the producers felt they had to right historical wrongs, instead of just telling the story within the world of the 5 film arc they've created.

    I don't think Craig's Bond has ever been creepy with women, it's a shame they had to give him a scene were he came across as out of touch and even undesirable, to hammer home how progressive this era is. Instead of being subtle as they have been in recent times

    A completely out of character moment
    I might be in the minority here, but I don't think that moment does Paloma any favors either. She immediately starts unbuttoning his shirt without any warning. I found it a bit out of character for her as well as she's presented as a capable and consummate professional underneath her nerves and charm. However, I do love the moment when she unrolls the tux.

    I do agree that that scene was written as a way to right historical wrongs which is why it really just doesn't work for either character and feels a bit shoehorned in. However, I'm not entirely sure Bond comes off as creepy or completely misunderstanding of the situation. I think he almost comes off just amused. Also, while I think him rebuffing Paloma out of pining for Madeleine definitely works narratively, I don't think they wanted to give the coming reconciliation away. Interestingly enough, I read somewhere a while ago, that they rewrote the Nomi/Bond scene as they wanted Bond to appear still emotionally connected to Madeleine and the original version didn't work.

    I agree that the subtle hints are there. He's pretty jaded and lonely. Also he's bitter as is evident in his response to Felix about not trusting pretty faces. I think poor Bond was in angry denial.
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