NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Anyone still trashing the film who has yet to even see it should be immediately, instantly disregarded and ignored. The fact that even some members here seem to be in this category (while, oddly enough, being the loudest voices in the room) is quite telling.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Minion wrote: »
    And @Seve have you seen NTTD yet?
    He is suspiciously avoiding answering that question, isn't he?

    To be fair, I was discussing this film on this thread for like a week before it finally hit the states. I didn’t mind reading spoilers, as I was interesting in discussing the merits of what NTTD was aiming for, rather than whether they succeeded or not. I left that kind of discussion to when I finally saw it.

    What I mostly responded to was this conceit that the current filmmakers shouldn’t make certain creative choices just because a bunch of filmmakers from the 60s never did that. The whole “Cubby would never” mantra. I absolutely object to line of thinking. EON should absolutely be free to do whatever they want with the properties they own, to hell with what fans think is acceptable or not. Because the truth is there’s no way of pleasing EVERY fan out there. There will always be those who deem themselves purists whether it’s those who believe Connery is the only Bond that matters or that LTK was the last “true” Bond film because it was the last produced by Cubby.
  • Posts: 2,917
    Feyador wrote: »
    It doesn't get much more fatalistic than that. And it is this outlook that lies underneath his hedonism.

    Perhaps, but Bond is ultimately using death as a justification for hedonism. Bond wants to keep living to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of life.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    Posts: 735
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    Feyador wrote: »
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Blofeld to Bond, in the ruins of the MI6 building in SP: 'You have a choice - die trying to save her or save yourself and live with the pain.'

    Oh, good catch. Love how that now connects to Blofeld giving the ending away halfway through NTTD. “Once her secret finds its way it, it will be the death of you.”
    The secret being Mathilde? Yes, I think that works ....
    Interesting article, justifying the ending of NTTD and that its closer to Fleming than I first thought. Hmmm...I may have to reconsider NTTD now. Looks like I'll have to give it another go.

    https://crimereads.com/fatalism-james-bond-series/?fbclid=IwAR2yoV7g175zYSS-rUeBY3N2qWgGIZAuLLsJtyHMBimqk4ZJX7WmGARiIpo
    Thank you, an excellent read ... 👏

    Yes, Mathilde. Blofeld knows about all of Madeleine's secrets which is why he says "she holds the secrets you need, all of them." Bond needed information on Safin but he also needed to know the truth about Madeleine not betraying him, the truth about Mathilde and the promise of a family. But the "death of you" line is specifically referencing Mathilde which is why I think it does foreshadow a choice Bond makes to stay and die. Protecting his family is literally the death of him rather than him bleeding out while trying to escape. I think the SPECTRE quote referenced by Venutius also adds richness to this as well as Bond promising White in SPECTRE that he would protect Madeleine and "keep her alive." He still manages to fulfill this promise and even protect White's granddaughter one film later.

    I know you hold a slightly different take on the ending, but I think we mostly end up at the same place. It's fun to discuss though. Great art tends to bring out different things in different people. Bloody big ship and all that, right?

    Yes, of course! And persuasive up to a point ... I especially like the latter reference from SP. Doesn't Bond say, "I can protect her"?

    But what I don't see is that unambiguous moment (or moments) where Bond clearly makes that "choice" in NTTD to sacrifice himself. I mean, a promise to protect someone that he has not yet met and the choice to sacrifice himself five years later in doing so are not the same thing.

    We certainly aren't privy to any interior monologue at the end of NTTD, only what Bond says to both Q & Madeleine, including to the latter: "I'm not going to make it." Does the expression on his face as he says this indicate "choice." Hmmm, maybe; but highly ambiguous stuff, in itself.

    And therein lies the artistry of the ending, in which we can each take a position on what we think is going on. At least I think we agree that Bond dies "heroically," which many here & elsewhere seem to question.

    My point (sorry to belabor it) is that if he has made such a decision to sacrifice himself it must have been an ambiguously, at best, wordless one - we don't know, see or hear it for certain - and that, ultimately, it doesn't matter because events (the need to re-open the blast doors; the increasingly debilitating gunshot wounds and those oncoming missiles) have rendered it of no practical relevance.

    Not only is there insufficient time to escape, I think - and this is where it does get particularly subjective for me - that Bond has the dawning awareness [from the opening strains of Zimmer's 'Final Ascent'] that he is going to die (and, yes, maybe also that it's for the best). So it is not that Bond chooses to die [he doesn't], he only accepts its soon-to-be inevitability, and finds consolation in both the survival of his family and the immediate legacy that is his daughter.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I doubt Craig Bond would be able to truly enjoy life given the circumstances of where he was at.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited November 2021 Posts: 420
    Minion wrote: »
    And @Seve have you seen NTTD yet?
    He is suspiciously avoiding answering that question, isn't he?

    Lol, as I've already mentioned several times before in other posts on this site, I'm in a Covid Lockdown in Auckland New Zealand.

    So reading peoples posts on this website are as close as I can get to experiencing the movie for the moment

    And my reply posts are my "first reactions"

    So thanks to everyone for sharing their views!

    Now, let the cyber bullying begin...
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,547
    First reactions to what? The Wikipedia page?
    EDIT: Ah, nevermind, I see, first reaction to our comments.

    The most critical opinions of NTTD are all coming from people who haven't seen NTTD...

    And a lot of them are coming from new members... just signed up to lambast a film they haven't seen in an online group of Bond fans? Or were you part of the surge that just wanted the leaked soundtrack link? Is it just for attention?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Seve wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    And @Seve have you seen NTTD yet?
    He is suspiciously avoiding answering that question, isn't he?

    Lol, as I've already mentioned several times before in other posts on this site, I'm in a Covid Lockdown in Auckland New Zealand.

    So reading peoples posts on this website are as close as I can get to experiencing the movie for the moment

    And these posts are my "first reactions"

    So thanks to everyone for sharing their views!

    Now, let the cyber bullying begin...

    Hope you enjoy the movie when you see it!
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited November 2021 Posts: 420

    The most critical opinions of NTTD are all coming from people who haven't seen NTTD...

    And a lot of them are coming from new members... just signed up to lambast a film they haven't seen in an online group of Bond fans? Is it just for attention?

    Now you are just "poisoning the well", which is, sadly, an increasingly popular tactic in these "Trumpian" days...

    I certainly got the impression "jetsetwilly" had seen the movie, and he is far from being a new member.

    As for me, I've been a member since 2011 and I haven't said I dislike the movie, how can I, when I haven't seen it. When I do finally get to see it I may love it, but like most Bond movies, I'm sure there will still be aspects I will dislike and killing Bond will be one of them.
    What I mostly responded to was this conceit that the current filmmakers shouldn’t make certain creative choices just because a bunch of filmmakers from the 60s never did that. The whole “Cubby would never” mantra. I absolutely object to line of thinking. EON should absolutely be free to do whatever they want with the properties they own, to hell with what fans think is acceptable or not. Because the truth is there’s no way of pleasing EVERY fan out there. There will always be those who deem themselves purists whether it’s those who believe Connery is the only Bond that matters or that LTK was the last “true” Bond film because it was the last produced by Cubby.

    True dat, and well said, but you know what fans are like...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    But what if you end up liking his depiction of being killed?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Seve wrote: »

    The most critical opinions of NTTD are all coming from people who haven't seen NTTD...

    And a lot of them are coming from new members... just signed up to lambast a film they haven't seen in an online group of Bond fans? Is it just for attention?

    Now you are just "poisoning the well", which is, sadly, an increasingly popular tactic in these "Trumpian" days...

    I certainly got the impression "jetsetwilly" had seen the movie, and he is far from being a new member.

    As for me, I've been a member since 2011 and I haven't said I dislike the movie, how can I, when I haven't seen it. When I do finally get to see it I may love it, but like most Bond movies, I'm sure there will still be aspects I will dislike and killing Bond will be one of them.

    Fair enough. If I've misinterpreted your posts, I apologize. Trust me, I'm the furthest thing from a Trump supporter, if that's what you meant.

    I suppose we're just extremely different; hard for me to imagine why a person who hasn't seen the film would spend so much time in this thread in particular, but I like to know as little as possible about a film before going in.

    I'm sorry you haven't been able to see the film yet, that really sucks.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Revelator wrote: »
    Feyador wrote: »
    It doesn't get much more fatalistic than that. And it is this outlook that lies underneath his hedonism.

    Perhaps, but Bond is ultimately using death as a justification for hedonism. Bond wants to keep living to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of life.

    Especially because spies have a very short life expectancy…
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Bond certainly knows it won’t be the cigarettes that ultimately kill him.
  • The most critical opinions of NTTD are all coming from people who haven't seen NTTD...

    Yeah. I was wondering why we were treated to an endless stream of “they just did it for shock value/they just did it to copy Marvel/etc”. Didn’t get it at all. I knew the ending would be divisive, because they killed James Bond, so of course some fans would be annoyed. But I was still surprised to see so many going on about how cheap and shocking it was, because, well, it wasn’t. Whether it was a good or bad ending is subjective obviously, and I knew there’d be debate over whether they should’ve gone there. But it made perfect sense in the context of the film, and the Craig era as a whole, so I really didn’t get why people were accusing them of just ripping off other franchises and going for shock value.

    But those comments make sense now. Of course it’d seem cheap and shocking if you just read a plot summary online, and missed the whole film that builds up to that point. But why they bothered posting comment after comment debating the merits of that plot summary, for a film they haven’t even seen, is completely beyond me.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    At least Seve had an excuse due to lockdown.

    slide_99, not so much.
  • The most critical opinions of NTTD are all coming from people who haven't seen NTTD...

    Yeah. I was wondering why we were treated to an endless stream of “they just did it for shock value/they just did it to copy Marvel/etc”.

    This confused me too. A lot of thought was clearly put into this movie and Craig's performance was magnificent. Had a hard time reconciling some of the posts I read with what I saw onscreen.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,547
    And to be fair to @Seve, he's right that there are people that have seen the film that share those opinions, jetsetwilly as he says, and also sworddevil1 (sp?) has seen it. And, of course, Birdleson.

    And it's not really as if anyone needs an excuse, everyone can do what they want, but... why?
  • Posts: 526
    I definitely will. I’m. Not saying he will be traumatized, but I don’t think he will like it- that Bond dies. You guys have to realize that some people get really emotionally invested in characters and follow them passionately for a long time. They develop a bond with said character- I’m other words, attachment. I have no idea why it is so hard to grasp that.

    @sworddevil1, we all are very emotionally invested in Bond, and have followed him passionately for a long time. I'd hate for you to think you're *more* invested or a *bigger* fan of Bond in some regard just because you were so offended by the end of NTTD; like the bigger offense a person takes towards the ending is a badge of honour of being a bigger fan of Bond than others.

    Did I say *any* of what you just posted about being a bigger fan than anyone else? To try and be clear, I am more attached emotionally to the Craig Bond than the other Bonds. And that does affect how I feel about them killing him. Please don’t put words in my mouth @NickTwentyTwo.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,547
    I definitely will. I’m. Not saying he will be traumatized, but I don’t think he will like it- that Bond dies. You guys have to realize that some people get really emotionally invested in characters and follow them passionately for a long time. They develop a bond with said character- I’m other words, attachment. I have no idea why it is so hard to grasp that.

    @sworddevil1, we all are very emotionally invested in Bond, and have followed him passionately for a long time. I'd hate for you to think you're *more* invested or a *bigger* fan of Bond in some regard just because you were so offended by the end of NTTD; like the bigger offense a person takes towards the ending is a badge of honour of being a bigger fan of Bond than others.

    Did I say *any* of what you just posted about being a bigger fan than anyone else? To try and be clear, I am more attached emotionally to the Craig Bond than the other Bonds. And that does affect how I feel about them killing him. Please don’t put words in my mouth @NickTwentyTwo.

    I was merely seeking clarification, not accusing anyone of anything.

    If you read my post, I just said I'd hate to see that you thought you were a bigger Bond fan than someone else because of how you reacted to the film, not that you outright said you were. I was making an inference on what you were saying.

    No one is putting words in anyone's mouth. This has become such an antagonistic place.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 526
    I definitely will. I’m. Not saying he will be traumatized, but I don’t think he will like it- that Bond dies. You guys have to realize that some people get really emotionally invested in characters and follow them passionately for a long time. They develop a bond with said character- I’m other words, attachment. I have no idea why it is so hard to grasp that.

    @sworddevil1, we all are very emotionally invested in Bond, and have followed him passionately for a long time. I'd hate for you to think you're *more* invested or a *bigger* fan of Bond in some regard just because you were so offended by the end of NTTD; like the bigger offense a person takes towards the ending is a badge of honour of being a bigger fan of Bond than others.

    Did I say *any* of what you just posted about being a bigger fan than anyone else? To try and be clear, I am more attached emotionally to the Craig Bond than the other Bonds. And that does affect how I feel about them killing him. Please don’t put words in my mouth @NickTwentyTwo.

    I was merely seeking clarification, not accusing anyone of anything.

    If you read my post, I just said I'd hate to see that you thought you were a bigger Bond fan than someone else because of how you reacted to the film, not that you outright said you were. I was making an inference on what you were saying.

    No one is putting words in anyone's mouth. This has become such an antagonistic place.

    I definitely don’t think that way. I think it’s petty when someone says “I’m a bigger fan of this and that than you are etc.” I think @Creasy47 said on night 1 of the release that this film would be “wildly divisive.” And he was 100% correct. I think we all need to just agree to disagree about NTTD. And I said I was going to quit posting on this thread (sigh , face palm). Some of my family and I are planning to watch NTTD tomorrow on PVOD. So, I’m hoping that I will see it differently or like it better. We’ll see I guess. The American rating for NTTD is 2 1/2 stars (per the on screen description guide). For what that’s worth. And @seve: you have every right to feel that the ending will be a big negative for you. You certainly aren’t alone.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    What’s The American rating?
  • Posts: 526
    What’s The American rating?
    What’s The American rating?

    2 1/2 out of 4 stars. It is generally when you view any movie on tv, a rating will appear. 4 stars is the best, like an all-time classic, etc. I just saw it when I pulled up the description. However, and I laugh as I write this, but Spectre was given 4 stars.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited November 2021 Posts: 420
    But what if you end up liking his depiction of being killed?

    Then it will be one of those contradictions that we humans are famous for
    Fair enough. If I've misinterpreted your posts, I apologize. Trust me, I'm the furthest thing from a Trump supporter, if that's what you meant.

    I suppose we're just extremely different; hard for me to imagine why a person who hasn't seen the film would spend so much time in this thread in particular, but I like to know as little as possible about a film before going in.

    I'm sorry you haven't been able to see the film yet, that really sucks.

    Your third sentence explains your second sentence, I can't see the movie so I spend time here on the thread most likely to give me a fix, because I have no idea when I'll be able to go into a theatre to see it, if at all.

    NB I wasn't trying to suggest you were a Trump supporter, just that his mode of behaviour has set a bad example in recent years, which, sadly, many have slipped into, not just those who support him.

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    What’s The American rating?
    What’s The American rating?

    2 1/2 out of 4 stars. It is generally when you view any movie on tv, a rating will appear. 4 stars is the best, like an all-time classic, etc. I just saw it when I pulled up the description. However, and I laugh as I write this, but Spectre was given 4 stars.

    Ah yes I saw that in your post, I didn’t know it was a rating that came up when you watch the movie on tv. I’m surprised NTTD has one at all as I don’t think it’s on tv anywhere yet.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 526
    What’s The American rating?
    What’s The American rating?

    2 1/2 out of 4 stars. It is generally when you view any movie on tv, a rating will appear. 4 stars is the best, like an all-time classic, etc. I just saw it when I pulled up the description. However, and I laugh as I write this, but Spectre was given 4 stars.

    Ah yes I saw that in your post, I didn’t know it was a rating that came up when you watch the movie on tv. I’m surprised NTTD has one at all as I don’t think it’s on tv anywhere yet.

    It isn’t. It comes on my satellite network Dish tomorrow, starting at 5:30 am. The rating is already there. I skipped ahead on the guide and saw it. $19.99 for a 2 day rental. I’d upload a pic of it, but I’m not sure if it’s allowed etc.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 526
    What’s The American rating?
    What’s The American rating?

    2 1/2 out of 4 stars. It is generally when you view any movie on tv, a rating will appear. 4 stars is the best, like an all-time classic, etc. I just saw it when I pulled up the description. However, and I laugh as I write this, but Spectre was given 4 stars.

    Ah yes I saw that in your post, I didn’t know it was a rating that came up when you watch the movie on tv. I’m surprised NTTD has one at all as I don’t think it’s on tv anywhere yet.

    It isn’t. It comes on my satellite network Dish tomorrow, starting at 5:30 am. The rating is already there. I skipped ahead on the guide and saw it. $19.99 for a 2 day rental.

    Sorry for the double post. Accidental.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 420
    Apropos of nothing and not vitally important or anything, but something I've been wondering about

    Does NTTD feature the old MI6 headquarters building that was in ruins by the end of SP at all?

    I've been wondering if they were planning to rebuild it or move into new permanent premises in the Craig-Bond Universe?

    Quite strange for me to still see the real headquarters, which also served as the fictional headquarters, fictionally destroyed and yet remain the real headquarters.

    OIP.DfeNsvkrZy_U2Tv1vJ5lAQHaEK?pid=ImgDet&rs=1
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    It doesn’t feature at all
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Yeah starting with SF they remained in the Whitehall buildings much like the Cubby era. I imagine in the reboot the proper SIS building will feature again.

    Of course, they could go back to Fleming and have the 00s occupying a small building separate from MI6. Probably not.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Yeah, I can imagine a grand establishing shot of Vauxhall Cross in all its glory with some sort of triumphant music in B26.
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