Was SPECTRE a disappointment?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Technically foster brother. If he actually was his half brother Bond would have died after touching Madeline.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Yup. I wish this misconception of an even closer relationship hadn’t spread so much. They even had Q drop a line about it after Blofeld’s death.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    The misconception I dislike seeing spread is the idea that Blofeld started SPECTRE specifically to target Bond for revenge.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Disproven by the line: “…A nice pattern developed. You interfered in my world, I destroyed yours…”
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited June 2022 Posts: 554
    You can't blame people for thinking that when the movie hones in on Blofeld's daddy issues and personal hatred of Bond so much.

    And half brother, foster brother, it's still idiotic to me.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    You can't blame people for thinking that when the movie hones in on Blofeld's daddy issues and personal hatred of Bond so much.

    And half brother, foster brother, it's still idiotic to me.

    I agree. But it's not that big a deal for me. The film is more than that, much more.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I think if SP had plenty of action and intelligence in the finale, other flaws in the film would have been forgiven. The problem I have with the finale with each viewing of SP is, before it even starts, I can already see the whole thing, because a lot doesn't happen in the finale. It was "All too briefly".
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,139
    Mallory wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Spectre...lacked in heart.

    I like SP, despite its faults, but yes, I've often suspected that Mendes's heart wasn't really in it.

    I think it was in the sony leaks that Mendes tried to quit, but the contract was pretty watertight. I cant source that though, going on memory from the time.

    I think that was when the deadline was approaching and Mendes didn’t want to commit to a script he wasn’t happy with. I think he did the best he could with what he had to work with, but it’s clear the script needed more work than time would allow.

    And looking at some of the previous drafts, I think we really lucked out. There’s one where on the bridge Bond grabs Blofeld by the throat and holds him up in the air until he dies. It’s truly abysmal.


    Every time I read those two pages I have to remind myself that professional scriptwriters wrote them. It's truly awful...

    Also, there's something a bit weird about M standing and watching Bond essentially murder a man and smiling after. As much as the 'license to not kill' ending to SP was BS, it at least felt somewhat right as an emotional beat...
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,790
    No one apparently thought of "DIE, BLOFELD! DIE!!!"

    Criminal.

  • Posts: 4,139
    Presumably they thought it was too dramatic and on the nose... They didn't want Bond doing anything that might be cringeworthy...

    On a side note, I do find it amusing (at least in my own little mind) that Craig's Bond has these weird 'spells' when he's around Blofeld that aren't seen otherwise with his character... Like, he randomly tries to run and tackle Blofeld when he shows Madeline the video of White killing himself (why he couldn't just tell her not to look I don't know... it's not like Bond was hiding how her father died or anything). That and of course 'that moment' from NTTD which is... well, a bit strange too.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited June 2022 Posts: 554
    007HallY wrote: »
    Presumably they thought it was too dramatic and on the nose... They didn't want Bond doing anything that might be cringeworthy...

    On a side note, I do find it amusing (at least in my own little mind) that Craig's Bond has these weird 'spells' when he's around Blofeld that aren't seen otherwise with his character... Like, he randomly tries to run and tackle Blofeld when he shows Madeline the video of White killing himself (why he couldn't just tell her not to look I don't know... it's not like Bond was hiding how her father died or anything). That and of course 'that moment' from NTTD which is... well, a bit strange too.
    Ah well, you know how brothers are.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I can roll with the conceit that Blofeld is the one villain that can genuinely get under Bond’s skin in a way that few can.

    The draft sample above is by Purvis & Wade, is that right?
  • Was Spectre a disappointment? Yes unfortunately it was.
    A missed opportunity for the ultimate Bond vs Blofeld battle. Bonds nemesis was so underwhelming. It would have been less of a disappointment if Christophe had just portrayed a random villain. I haven’t watched any other film with him in it (don’t like the genre) but I had expectations as he got so much praise for his previous roles. It just didn’t work. Blofeld should have been the final villain for Craig’s cycle. I don’t know why they pushed for a fifth film with Craig, to me the ending to SP was perfect to end Craig’s cycle. So they ended up having to find another villain, Safin, that was much better but still, this was all very badly planned in my opinion. Blofeld’s card was just wasted. What a shame.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Agreed, Blofeld was wasted. Would have preferred he took over as the villain in NTTD.
    Spectre was disappointing, but as always I have to admit, I still love it.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    While I'm not angry with the way Blofeld was handled in SP (and NTTD), I do believe that they could have done a much better job. Seeing how well the Craig Bonds had been constructed so far, and given that the return of Spectre and Blofeld was this monumental thing in the Bond series, I wanted nothing but excellence. SP was not excellent in terms of bringing back Blofeld--and this comes from someone who will defend SP as a very good Bond film.

    However, I do rather like how they handled Spectre as an organization, with "people everywhere", shadowy influences in every negative newspaper headline, that wonderfully sinister meeting, and its (topical) focus on information and disinformation. I think Spectre was revived in an interesting way, while Blofeld himself was sacrificed for the brother angle which doesn't infuriate me but leaves me somewhat cold, wondering if it was really absolutely necessary to make him and Bond 'related' in a way.

    And yes, NTTD suddenly washed Spectre away in one simple sweep, which retroactively leaves me less threatened by the organisation. Not what I would have done, to be frank. Think about it: for decades, Spectre and Blofeld were locked down in rights wars. Finally, the rights reverted back to EON. Finally, after decades, Spectre and Blofeld could return. Conveniently, Spectre could be presented as the sinister shadow organisation behind Quantum (and also behind Silva, unfortunately.) And what happened? We got one film with Spectre puppeteering the world, only to see the dark and powerful organisation be smoked out like a nest of wasps in the next. That's it?

    To be honest, I wouldn't mind a return to form for Spectre and Blofeld in the next 'trilogy', or whatever they're hinting at, but not like this. Is it too much to ask for Blofeld to be just a creative, dangerous and ambitious man, who will eventually cross paths with Bond simply because they are on opposite sides of big global threats? I still firmly believe in putting Spectre to good use. We can start over, after all. If people can handle a new Joker every five minutes, they'll be able to handle a new Blofeld every now and then. ;-)
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Personally, I didn't care for SP when I saw it but upon the last time of viewing my opinion changed somewhat. While I can't say it's my favourite film, or even my favourite DC film, it has grown on me.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    stag wrote: »
    Personally, I didn't care for SP when I saw it but upon the last time of viewing my opinion changed somewhat. While I can't say it's my favourite film, or even my favourite DC film, it has grown on me.

    I'm the same on this, I watched Spectre recently, the first time I'd seen it since the week before NTTD, and it was like watching with fresh eyes.
    I loved the PTS, the Rome meeting and the train fight was amazing.
    It's still not one of my favourites but I enjoyed it more than I expected to
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    The reason I've always been able to enjoy SP is because I am one of the few who thought it a step up from SF. Simply put, I found the film more entertaining as a Bond film. I like Craig better in SP. The score is an improvement over SF's. I enjoy the story far more. And I, for one, dig the romance between Madeleine and Bond.

    I have probably explained this before, but the way I see it, Bond and Madeleine are two lone souls--both orphaned, both alone. Whenever we see them together, the world is deserted. The clinic feels empty, L'Américain feels isolated from the rest of the world, their train wagon is completely abandoned by the time Hinx drops in, they are next seen in a desert, then in a very reclusive hideout, then in a mostly empty London, and lastly in an empty MI6 building. It's as if the story keeps isolating these two from the rest of the world. As an introvert who enjoys alone-time in places with no or at most a few other human beings, who can spend days or even weeks left to himself, who prefers to go places alone (*), I can easily relate to their emotional state and their bonding under these conditions. Unlike some, I actually think there's great chemistry between Bond and Madeleine because I recognise parts of myself in their story. But this "loner affair" isn't for everyone. I get that. I believe that's also why some seem to think there's no chemistry between these two at all. This romance spoke to me, but I understand why it doesn't speak to all.

    The many empty scenes in the film -- big places, few people --set a mood that I really appreciate. Intentional or not, there's poetry in that. L'Américain is the cherry on the pie in that sense. Here we have two people who are drowsy, sweaty and drunk, locked up in a room, who stumble upon the entrance to a cold room which reveals itself like a breeze of fresh air. Newman's use of soft sounds and gentle piano strokes amplifies the hint of mystery and soft sexual tension. Watching that scene, I always wish I were Bond right there and then. Because of that scene, I mostly watch SP late at night, when the world has gone to bed and all is quiet, when my surroundings are completely dark, and when I'm just as isolated as Bond and Madeleine.

    Evidently, I love the busier and more "crowded" Bond films, like FRWL, GF and TB. But I'm also happy to have SP. It's a good Bond in my humble opinion.

    (*) I am now happily married. My wife and I are both introverts. "I" has turned into "we", but the rest has remained the same. We had a good time spending the first lockdown together, 24-7. We didn't need other people near us. I bet Bond and Madeleine would have been the same during the first waves of the pandemic. ;-)
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited August 2022 Posts: 1,711
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    I have probably explained this before, but the way I see it, Bond and Madeleine are two lone souls--both orphaned, both alone.

    They're a perfect match. I love how she shuts down Bond's interview as soon as he says "L'Americain," just as he shut down an interview as soon as "Skyfall" was mentioned in the previous film. It's a nice thing they did there.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    I have probably explained this before, but the way I see it, Bond and Madeleine are two lone souls--both orphaned, both alone.

    They're a perfect match. I love how she shuts down Bond's interview as soon as he says "L'Americain," just as he shut down an interview as soon as "Skyfall" was mentioned in the previous film. It's a nice thing they did there.

    Right? That's why I feel like they are made for each other.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited August 2022 Posts: 1,711
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    I have probably explained this before, but the way I see it, Bond and Madeleine are two lone souls--both orphaned, both alone.

    They're a perfect match. I love how she shuts down Bond's interview as soon as he says "L'Americain," just as he shut down an interview as soon as "Skyfall" was mentioned in the previous film. It's a nice thing they did there.

    Right? That's why I feel like they are made for each other.

    Well, they literally are, from a screenwriting perspective! :))

    But yeah, while I can sympathize with those who don't think the development of the romance was good enough (I thought it was more than fine for a film of this genre), I can't understand not appreciating Madeleine as being exactly the right character for James Bond.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,789
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The reason I've always been able to enjoy SP is because I am one of the few who thought it a step up from SF. Simply put, I found the film more entertaining as a Bond film. I like Craig better in SP. The score is an improvement over SF's. I enjoy the story far more. And I, for one, dig the romance between Madeleine and Bond.

    I have probably explained this before, but the way I see it, Bond and Madeleine are two lone souls--both orphaned, both alone. Whenever we see them together, the world is deserted. The clinic feels empty, L'Américain feels isolated from the rest of the world, their train wagon is completely abandoned by the time Hinx drops in, they are next seen in a desert, then in a very reclusive hideout, then in a mostly empty London, and lastly in an empty MI6 building. It's as if the story keeps isolating these two from the rest of the world. As an introvert who enjoys alone-time in places with no or at most a few other human beings, who can spend days or even weeks left to himself, who prefers to go places alone (*), I can easily relate to their emotional state and their bonding under these conditions. Unlike some, I actually think there's great chemistry between Bond and Madeleine because I recognise parts of myself in their story. But this "loner affair" isn't for everyone. I get that. I believe that's also why some seem to think there's no chemistry between these two at all. This romance spoke to me, but I understand why it doesn't speak to all.

    The many empty scenes in the film -- big places, few people --set a mood that I really appreciate. Intentional or not, there's poetry in that. L'Américain is the cherry on the pie in that sense. Here we have two people who are drowsy, sweaty and drunk, locked up in a room, who stumble upon the entrance to a cold room which reveals itself like a breeze of fresh air. Newman's use of soft sounds and gentle piano strokes amplifies the hint of mystery and soft sexual tension. Watching that scene, I always wish I were Bond right there and then. Because of that scene, I mostly watch SP late at night, when the world has gone to bed and all is quiet, when my surroundings are completely dark, and when I'm just as isolated as Bond and Madeleine.

    Evidently, I love the busier and more "crowded" Bond films, like FRWL, GF and TB. But I'm also happy to have SP. It's a good Bond in my humble opinion.

    (*) I am now happily married. My wife and I are both introverts. "I" has turned into "we", but the rest has remained the same. We had a good time spending the first lockdown together, 24-7. We didn't need other people near us. I bet Bond and Madeleine would have been the same during the first waves of the pandemic. ;-)

    Yes, that's why I enjoyed SP than NTTD.
    I liked that there's a lingering between these two, I'm hoping for Madeleine to be some sort of Elektra King alike Character, and I think she nailed it in SP, but in NTTD, it's all thrown out of the window, with the filmmakers tried to forced her to become the new Tracy.
    But still, not buying the relationship, I mean compared to Tracy or Vesper, the relationship between them felt short, just no personality and not fleshed out, we're not given any reason why they need to fall in love with each other.

    And the chemistry, it's not on the characters' part but on the actors, Craig and Seydoux just didn't have the spark.
    Again, I understand what they're doing with this characters, but they've got it wrong in the actors.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    I have probably explained this before, but the way I see it, Bond and Madeleine are two lone souls--both orphaned, both alone.

    They're a perfect match. I love how she shuts down Bond's interview as soon as he says "L'Americain," just as he shut down an interview as soon as "Skyfall" was mentioned in the previous film. It's a nice thing they did there.

    Right? That's why I feel like they are made for each other.

    Well, they literally are, from a screenwriting perspective! :))

    But yeah, while I can sympathize with those who don't think the development of the romance was good enough (I thought it was more than fine for a film of this genre), I can't understand not appreciating Madeleine as being exactly the right character for James Bond.

    I don't think a flaboyant, spunky, extraverted lady would've been the right match for Craig's Bond. Maybe Roger's Bond could have handled such a girl better. ;-)
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,789
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    I have probably explained this before, but the way I see it, Bond and Madeleine are two lone souls--both orphaned, both alone.

    They're a perfect match. I love how she shuts down Bond's interview as soon as he says "L'Americain," just as he shut down an interview as soon as "Skyfall" was mentioned in the previous film. It's a nice thing they did there.

    Right? That's why I feel like they are made for each other.

    Well, they literally are, from a screenwriting perspective! :))

    But yeah, while I can sympathize with those who don't think the development of the romance was good enough (I thought it was more than fine for a film of this genre), I can't understand not appreciating Madeleine as being exactly the right character for James Bond.

    I don't think a flaboyant, spunky, extraverted lady would've been the right match for Craig's Bond. Maybe Roger's Bond could have handled such a girl better. ;-)

    Anya Amasova? She's also a loner, or what about Melina Havelock?
    Solitaire, she's also loner, Mr. Big held her like his slave.

    And Moore's Bond could be also easily annoyed by such attitude of women, think of his reaction towards Bibi Dahl, or heck he's even annoyed towards Anya, when she's trying to outweigh him.

    I think it's Dalton who could have handled those, both Kara and Pam (she's also flamboyant, and spunky) were both extroverted, same for Lazenby, the Angels of Death, or even Connery, think of Pussy Galore or Tatiana Romanova.

    But Moore? I'm not sure, he's a bit of Old Fashioned guy, a conservative one in my view.
  • Posts: 4,139
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    I have probably explained this before, but the way I see it, Bond and Madeleine are two lone souls--both orphaned, both alone.

    They're a perfect match. I love how she shuts down Bond's interview as soon as he says "L'Americain," just as he shut down an interview as soon as "Skyfall" was mentioned in the previous film. It's a nice thing they did there.

    Right? That's why I feel like they are made for each other.

    Well, they literally are, from a screenwriting perspective! :))

    But yeah, while I can sympathize with those who don't think the development of the romance was good enough (I thought it was more than fine for a film of this genre), I can't understand not appreciating Madeleine as being exactly the right character for James Bond.

    I don't think a flaboyant, spunky, extraverted lady would've been the right match for Craig's Bond. Maybe Roger's Bond could have handled such a girl better. ;-)

    Anya Amasova? She's also a loner, or what about Melina Havelock?
    Solitaire, she's also loner, Mr. Big held her like his slave.

    And Moore's Bond could be also easily annoyed by such attitude of women, think of his reaction towards Bibi Dahl, or heck he even had annoying reactions towards Anya, when she's trying to outweigh him.

    I think it's Dalton who could have handled those, both Kara and Pam (she's also flamboyant, spunky and extraverted) were both extroverted, same for Lazenby, the Angels of Death, or even Connery, think of Pussy Galore or Tatiana Romanova.

    I can see what you mean about Dalton. One of the weakest things about TLD for me is just how naive and... well, young Kara comes across as. The character on paper seems like she'd be more world weary, perhaps cynical, and I suspect would have worked better if played like this. They vastly improved things with Pam in LTK and the relationship feels more organic despite the fact that it's TLD that's leaning into the 'Bond falls in love with this girl' aspect.

    It's an interesting thought for future Bond films - what types of Bond girls/what personalities work better alongside certain Bonds?
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    After watching NTTD, even if SP isn't that great, it feels more like a Bond film. It's slicker than NTTD, because Mendes seems to understand Bond more than Fukunaga. Mendes also knows what Bond should wear.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    stag wrote: »
    Personally, I didn't care for SP when I saw it but upon the last time of viewing my opinion changed somewhat. While I can't say it's my favourite film, or even my favourite DC film, it has grown on me.

    I'm the same on this, I watched Spectre recently, the first time I'd seen it since the week before NTTD, and it was like watching with fresh eyes.
    I loved the PTS, the Rome meeting and the train fight was amazing.
    It's still not one of my favourites but I enjoyed it more than I expected to

    I've found this with quite a few other Bond films. I only watch them occasionally, when I've half-forgotten what happens. As such they can move or down my rankings accordingly.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    SP is a damp squib of a movie, and yes, a disappointment. The needlessly drawn-out Spectre meeting (topped by the stupid identification of Bond by Blofeld) told us what the rest of the film would be like...
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I love when Blofeld identifies Bond. Especially the first time I saw the movie, it's a nice "holy shit" moment. It's suspenseful for Bond to be at a Spectre meeting in the first place, and for the guy who's obviously Blofeld to look at him and say his name is a wonderful moment. Now, if you don't like where that all goes, maybe it's not a favorite, but I can't imagine what is stupid about the scene in isolation.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2022 Posts: 6,297
    It lasts about five minutes too long and ushers in Brofeld. What's to like about that? Blofeld seems petty, not a criminal mastermind.

    The suspense should have been in the execution of whoever that guy was, as it was in all the old SPECTRE scenes (FRWL, TB, YOLT). If you're going to buy the rights to SPECTRE back, at least get that part right.
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