Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Posts: 7,507
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Though I know it won't happen, I've long wanted something like DN or FRWL again with a bit less action and more of the detective work, character moments, buildup, etc. The Fleming novels are generally pretty sparing in the amount of action sequences, but it makes them all the more memorable and intense when they arrive, and I feel like the same can happen in movie form. But many people come to watch Bond movies for the spectacle aspect; there's no way they will be toning down the action much from Craig's era if at all.


    I agree with this. I always appreciate when Bond feels more like an investigator doing proper spy work rather than just stumbling into leads the villain willingly presents for him or gets into a string of action sequences by chance.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 17 Posts: 16,624
    jobo wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Though I know it won't happen, I've long wanted something like DN or FRWL again with a bit less action and more of the detective work, character moments, buildup, etc. The Fleming novels are generally pretty sparing in the amount of action sequences, but it makes them all the more memorable and intense when they arrive, and I feel like the same can happen in movie form. But many people come to watch Bond movies for the spectacle aspect; there's no way they will be toning down the action much from Craig's era if at all.


    I agree with this. I always appreciate when Bond feels more like an investigator doing proper spy work rather than just stumbling into leads the villain willingly presents for him or gets into a string of action sequences by chance.

    Funnily enough I'd say that QoS is probably the strongest on that front of the recent movies. He really is piecing everything together as he goes, although because he keeps having to kill people M thinks he's gone rogue(!).

    I must admit, I don't have a massive preference. Being thrown into an adventure can be as much fun as following a load of leads (in fact it sounds more fun like that!), it depends how it's handled.

    I quite like how in one of them (DAD?) M practically admits that she uses 007 to shake things up a bit rather than perhaps as a subtle sleuth. Fleming's 'blunt instrument'.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I can imagine Bond 26 running with the very broad story elements that we quintessentially think of as ‘the Bond formula’, more than the first three Craig films did. By this I mean I think we’ll be likely to get a Bond/M briefing scene in the MI6 office, Bond will in fact have gadgets, the Bond girl will in fact live to the end of the film etc.

    That said I think within that very broad framework they’ll do something different with it - subvert some sort of expectation, put a twist on something etc. Honestly, every Bond film does something different anyway using that foundation, even if the Craig films departed from some of it (ie. Every Bond film will have a villain, a set up to Bond’s mission, an ally of some sort even if it’s simply M, Bond girl etc, and at least one part of the usual fodder is there - the Bond theme, the ‘Bond, James Bond’, the gun barrel etc.)

    With a novel you don't need a "twist" . The book will give you enough stuff.

    Hey, @DEKE_RIVERS ... Uhm, I've adapted a novel, and the same producer of that project has hired me to adapt another novel (from the same author)... I'm genuinely asking you to join me in a conversation (in our DMs), about how utterly misguided your post was. I don't think you'll accept the invitation, but I am asking...

    From your comments about scripts aren't written to be read, to this latest about books providing "enough stuff", it sounds like you think whipping up a $200 million tentpole film is easy-peasy. I can assure you, putting together a half a million dollar contained film, is brutal, let alone a massive multi million dollar blockbuster.

    My DM's open and I'd be happy to chat further...

    where is the controversy? You are adapting novels and you're not the only one.

    It's very common. Why EON can't do that?

    But that's not what you were saying @DEKE_RIVERS , 😂. And that is not NOT what I was saying.

    But you know that.

    Look at what you did say: "with a novel you don't need a "twist". The book will give you enough stuff". This statement is a very incorrect statement, just like when you said screenplays aren't written to be read.

    But instead of cluttering up this thread with this silliness, I invited you to reach out for a private discussion.

    Which it was obvious from the jump that you wouldn't.

    Saying that, my DM is still open.


    yes, that's what I say. Adapting novels is useful. don't you think so?

    You didn’t say that, @DEKE_RIVERS . You said the books will give enough.

    But you know what you said, so let’s leave it at that.

  • edited January 17 Posts: 4,310
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Though I know it won't happen, I've long wanted something like DN or FRWL again with a bit less action and more of the detective work, character moments, buildup, etc. The Fleming novels are generally pretty sparing in the amount of action sequences, but it makes them all the more memorable and intense when they arrive, and I feel like the same can happen in movie form. But many people come to watch Bond movies for the spectacle aspect; there's no way they will be toning down the action much from Craig's era if at all.


    I agree with this. I always appreciate when Bond feels more like an investigator doing proper spy work rather than just stumbling into leads the villain willingly presents for him or gets into a string of action sequences by chance.

    Funnily enough I'd say that QoS is probably the strongest on that front of the recent movies. He really is piecing everything together as he goes, although because he keeps having to kill people M thinks he's gone rogue(!).

    I must admit, I don't have a massive preference. Being thrown into an adventure can be as much fun as following a load of leads (in fact it sounds more fun like that!), it depends how it's handled.

    I quite like how in one of them (DAD?) M practically admits that she uses 007 to shake things up a bit rather than perhaps as a subtle sleuth. Fleming's 'blunt instrument'.

    I do love that Bond isn’t always one step ahead of everything as a character. He’ll do things which, on the surface, seem risky, but it’s usually for the purposes of plowing ahead with the mission or putting him and his opponents on a level playing field (ie. In CR he knows Le Chiffre is aware of him so simply blows his cover once he gets to the hotel, in SF instead of sneaking into Silva’s island he gets himself captured immediately, in TB he throws around the word ‘Spectre’ in front of Largo which obviously makes him known immediately to the enemy but ultimately confirms his suspicions). I guess the best way of putting it is where characters like Jack Reacher, Ethan Hunt or even, taking a traditional detective, Sherlock Holmes are chess players, planning ahead, anticipating their opponents’ moves, Bond is a gambler who operates better taking dangerous calculated risks and bluffing.

    As long as that trait is applied to Bond doing detective work in a film, then it’s fine. Personally I’m a fan of Bond having to snoop around and uncover stuff.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 14,003
    Benny wrote: »
    I like the stripped back idea, when they have no where to go, EON of old would sometimes go back to FRWL as the basis of the story.
    I’d like a spy thriller. Cloak and dagger stuff, with well written characters.
    It doesn’t have to be globetrotting or even overly action packed. Use Fleming as much as possible.
    Updating his novels for a modern time could be an idea.

    I like this. Surely we must be long overdue for another FRWL/TLD, a contemporary spy thriller.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,603
    Would it be too much hard-core fan service to take unused elements from the Fleming novels and formulated a spy thriller around that? Spangled Mob, S.H.A.P.E, and perhaps a better version of the Garden of Death that seemed underutilized in NTTD. I can't think of others at the moment, but I'm sure I'm missing something that wasn't used that can be updated and modified.
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 581
    Would it be too much hard-core fan service to take unused elements from the Fleming novels and formulated a spy thriller around that? Spangled Mob, S.H.A.P.E, and perhaps a better version of the Garden of Death that seemed underutilized in NTTD. I can't think of others at the moment, but I'm sure I'm missing something that wasn't used that can be updated and modified.

    I dont think using more Fleming is fan service. The producers famously use Fleming as the guide whenever they are stuck. It is also been well documented that Puvis and Wade are big fans of Fleming and make every effort to include elements from the books in each of thier scripts. I would say that if we are looking for clues as to what is next for Bond it is looking at the Fleming novels and which parts have not been used.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I don't think we'll ever see a really truthfull adaptation of the the garden of death segment. There are some racial undertones and implications to it, playing on the stereotype that the Japanese are suicidal, just the kind of thing EON likely will stay away from. I also have my doubts whether it's actually such a great idea for an action thriller, especially a modern day action thriller. I'm not sold on it to be honest.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 17 Posts: 16,624
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Though I know it won't happen, I've long wanted something like DN or FRWL again with a bit less action and more of the detective work, character moments, buildup, etc. The Fleming novels are generally pretty sparing in the amount of action sequences, but it makes them all the more memorable and intense when they arrive, and I feel like the same can happen in movie form. But many people come to watch Bond movies for the spectacle aspect; there's no way they will be toning down the action much from Craig's era if at all.


    I agree with this. I always appreciate when Bond feels more like an investigator doing proper spy work rather than just stumbling into leads the villain willingly presents for him or gets into a string of action sequences by chance.

    Funnily enough I'd say that QoS is probably the strongest on that front of the recent movies. He really is piecing everything together as he goes, although because he keeps having to kill people M thinks he's gone rogue(!).

    I must admit, I don't have a massive preference. Being thrown into an adventure can be as much fun as following a load of leads (in fact it sounds more fun like that!), it depends how it's handled.

    I quite like how in one of them (DAD?) M practically admits that she uses 007 to shake things up a bit rather than perhaps as a subtle sleuth. Fleming's 'blunt instrument'.

    I do love that Bond isn’t always one step ahead of everything as a character. He’ll do things which, on the surface, seem risky, but it’s usually for the purposes of plowing ahead with the mission or putting him and his opponents on a level playing field (ie. In CR he knows Le Chiffre is aware of him so simply blows his cover once he gets to the hotel, in SF instead of sneaking into Silva’s island he gets himself captured immediately, in TB he throws around the word ‘Spectre’ in front of Largo which obviously makes him known immediately to the enemy but ultimately confirms his suspicions). I guess the best way of putting it is where characters like Jack Reacher, Ethan Hunt or even, taking a traditional detective, Sherlock Holmes are chess players, planning ahead, anticipating their opponents’ moves, Bond is a gambler who operates better taking dangerous calculated risks and bluffing.

    Yes I like that as a fundamental difference between Ethan Hunt and James Bond: Hunt is a planner and always tries to go into a situation with a preset plan of how he's going to outfox the villain; Bond will throw himself headfirst into a situation and trusts his instincts and lateral thinking ability to get himself out of it with skill.
    I don't think either is superior: I enjoy watching both.
    007HallY wrote: »
    As long as that trait is applied to Bond doing detective work in a film, then it’s fine. Personally I’m a fan of Bond having to snoop around and uncover stuff.

    I like a bit of a snoop and a spy, as long as there's a capture and escape not far away too! :D
    Would it be too much hard-core fan service to take unused elements from the Fleming novels and formulated a spy thriller around that? Spangled Mob, S.H.A.P.E, and perhaps a better version of the Garden of Death that seemed underutilized in NTTD. I can't think of others at the moment, but I'm sure I'm missing something that wasn't used that can be updated and modified.

    I'm still a bit unsure what cinematic potential a garden has that folks think went untapped..(!)
  • Stripped down Bond film? Fewer locations? Sound like the perfect opportunity to do a faithful adaptation of MR (either set in the 1950s or in the present).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,624
    Stripped down Bond film? Fewer locations? Sound like the perfect opportunity to do a faithful adaptation of MR (either set in the 1950s or in the present).

    Again, it sounds like Skyfall. He pops to Shanghai, then stays in the UK for the rest of it with little in the way of action. I thought SF was great so I'm not saying it would be terrible, but it's something they have looked at in the last few films.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,011
    Stripped down Bond film? Fewer locations? Sound like the perfect opportunity to do a faithful adaptation of MR (either set in the 1950s or in the present).

    Yes, but also yes. I've been wanting this for a long time.
  • edited January 17 Posts: 7,507
    I know I am going against the Fleming faithful sentiments on these boards, but I honestly don't think Moonraker is a good idea for adaptation either. Back when the novel was written, the concept of a nuclear destruction threat towards a major city was relatively fresh. It isn't anymore. It's been done to death, both outside the world of Bond, but also in the classic Bond films and on a much greater scale. For the general audience it will come off as a tired cliché and scream of a lack of creativity. - "Oh really, you're doing that again are you? You've really got no other ideas?"

    After decades of Cold War the world is tired of this storyline.
  • Posts: 12,525
    jobo wrote: »
    I know I am going against the Fleming faithful sentiments on these boards, but I honestly don't think Moonraker is a good idea for adaptation either. Back when the novel was written, the concept of a nuclear destruction threat towards a major city was relatively fresh. It isn't anymore. It's been done to death, both outside the world of Bond, but also in the classic Bond films and on a much greater scale. For the general audience it will come off as a tired cliché and scream of a lack of creativity. - "Oh really, you're doing that again are you? You've really got no other ideas?"

    After decades of Cold War the world is tired of this storyline.

    There are familiar elements, yes, but the “enemy within” and Nazism features I feel like would resonate well in this particular moment in time. If it would be a faithful adaptation, it’d have to be set when the novel was to capture all the villain’s history, but I still feel like there are enough parallels to today that would compel modern audiences.
  • Posts: 2,029
    For me it's not about less action. But action that doesn't depend on the same spectacle we've seen over and over. A film without the giant explosions and things like an impossibly well-timed underground crash that seemed straight out of a Universal Studios theme park ride would be nice. I don't need to see Bond having a fight on top of a train because again because I've seen it before and it has become an easy film cliche in many other films.

    Lots of property destroyed during the Craig era. Collapsing house, desert retreat, Skyfall, MI6 building, Blofeld's desert HQ, Russian bunker. A film in which Bond doesn't need to blow up anything might would be a refreshing change. How many times has the Aston Martin has been blown up?

    Some may argue that such changes are getting away from 'Bond.' But rebooting and reinventing is exactly that. Remaking Bond for a new generation means less fidelity to the original Bond of the novels and film. NTTD certainly did that. At no point during my early years watching the SC films could I have entertained the notion of Mathilde.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,624
    jobo wrote: »
    I know I am going against the Fleming faithful sentiments on these boards, but I honestly don't think Moonraker is a good idea for adaptation either. Back when the novel was written, the concept of a nuclear destruction threat towards a major city was relatively fresh. It isn't anymore. It's been done to death, both outside the world of Bond, but also in the classic Bond films and on a much greater scale. For the general audience it will come off as a tired cliché and scream of a lack of creativity. - "Oh really, you're doing that again are you? You've really got no other ideas?"

    After decades of Cold War the world is tired of this storyline.

    Yes I think it's a pretty slight story, it wouldn't hold up as a film now, even if done as period. I tend to think that adaptations have to be exactly that: taking the spirit of the thing and adapting it to a new medium and audience. And folks might spot it's pretty similar to Die Another Day too.
  • Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I know I am going against the Fleming faithful sentiments on these boards, but I honestly don't think Moonraker is a good idea for adaptation either. Back when the novel was written, the concept of a nuclear destruction threat towards a major city was relatively fresh. It isn't anymore. It's been done to death, both outside the world of Bond, but also in the classic Bond films and on a much greater scale. For the general audience it will come off as a tired cliché and scream of a lack of creativity. - "Oh really, you're doing that again are you? You've really got no other ideas?"

    After decades of Cold War the world is tired of this storyline.

    Yes I think it's a pretty slight story, it wouldn't hold up as a film now, even if done as period. I tend to think that adaptations have to be exactly that: taking the spirit of the thing and adapting it to a new medium and audience. And folks might spot it's pretty similar to Die Another Day too.

    Yes, I did consider bringing up DAD. In many ways that was the attempt at adapting Moonraker, but having to flesh out a very simplistic story into a modern Bond film, they infamously went overboard with it (some would say nuts ;)) ). Of course i am not saying you couldn't make a better attempt at it than what they did then, but I still assume there should be better ideas out there.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,190
    Maybe they should bring back the blind villain idea they had before for Bond 25. Also, for a bit of change, the main villain should be female in Bond 26.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 17 Posts: 16,624
    Yeah definitely. I think it's kind of bizarre we haven't had a female villain for over 20 years. It might give it a fresher feel.
    I always think of that clever person's suggestion that Helen McCrory could have played C in Spectre and get a pang of what could have been.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,703
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah definitely. I think it's kind of bizarre we haven't had a female villain for over 20 years. It might give it a fresher feel.

    Yes it would be fresher. And no plot twist this time, please. A LOT of Bond stories have a surprise twist female villain. A straightforward one would be truly fresh.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,233
    Stripped down Bond film? Fewer locations? Sound like the perfect opportunity to do a faithful adaptation of MR (either set in the 1950s or in the present).

    Funnily that’s what DAD was supposed to be. And then Lee Tamahori came on board and was like “we need an invisible car in this”.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,011
    Stripped down Bond film? Fewer locations? Sound like the perfect opportunity to do a faithful adaptation of MR (either set in the 1950s or in the present).

    Funnily that’s what DAD was supposed to be. And then Lee Tamahori came on board and was like “we need an invisible car in this”.

    I always thought the invisible Aston Martin was an idea suggested by P&W.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited January 17 Posts: 16,624
    Stripped down Bond film? Fewer locations? Sound like the perfect opportunity to do a faithful adaptation of MR (either set in the 1950s or in the present).

    Funnily that’s what DAD was supposed to be. And then Lee Tamahori came on board and was like “we need an invisible car in this”.

    Yes, according to Some Kind of Hero, P&W suggested a stealth car for TWINE, but didn't want it to actually be invisible and were a bit annoyed to find out that it had become that. It sounds like they wanted it to be more down to Earth but Tamahori wanted it more comic book and took it in that direction. I'd like to read that script- I guess with stuff like the clinic and all of the Cuba stuff generally really, you can still see some of that.
  • Posts: 6,710
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Stripped down Bond film? Fewer locations? Sound like the perfect opportunity to do a faithful adaptation of MR (either set in the 1950s or in the present).

    Funnily that’s what DAD was supposed to be. And then Lee Tamahori came on board and was like “we need an invisible car in this”.

    I always thought the invisible Aston Martin was an idea suggested by P&W.

    It was. They read it on a popular science magazine, or something, as it is one of their methods to find an idea on which to base the entire villanous premise of the film… idiots (IMO, of course).

    But I think what @MakeshiftPython was trying to say was that Tamahori, that hack, amped up the film’s ludicrous portrayal of tech and made a flamboyant film in place of a more restrained and intelligent one. Damn, I dislike DUD so much.
  • edited January 17 Posts: 1,462
    .
    jobo wrote: »
    I know I am going against the Fleming faithful sentiments on these boards, but I honestly don't think Moonraker is a good idea for adaptation either. Back when the novel was written, the concept of a nuclear destruction threat towards a major city was relatively fresh. It isn't anymore. It's been done to death, both outside the world of Bond, but also in the classic Bond films and on a much greater scale. For the general audience it will come off as a tired cliché and scream of a lack of creativity. - "Oh really, you're doing that again are you? You've really got no other ideas?"

    After decades of Cold War the world is tired of this storyline.

    Does that really matter?

    killing James Bond wasn't original and they did it anyway.

  • edited January 17 Posts: 4,310
    jobo wrote: »
    I know I am going against the Fleming faithful sentiments on these boards, but I honestly don't think Moonraker is a good idea for adaptation either. Back when the novel was written, the concept of a nuclear destruction threat towards a major city was relatively fresh. It isn't anymore. It's been done to death, both outside the world of Bond, but also in the classic Bond films and on a much greater scale. For the general audience it will come off as a tired cliché and scream of a lack of creativity. - "Oh really, you're doing that again are you? You've really got no other ideas?"

    After decades of Cold War the world is tired of this storyline.

    MR is my favourite Bond novel, and one of my favourite books of all time. And I agree with what you're saying. While it has a lot of great stuff in it, much of which has broadly been adapted into several Bond films, I don't think a modern but faithful adaptation would add anything.

    I'm all for seeing something in a future Bond film like M giving him a seemingly mundane 'off the books' job, a chase where the henchman jumps on a truck and crushes Bond's car with something, Bond interacting with Moneypenny/Loelia about a fellow 00 who has been injured/died on an assignment, or any of the numerous untapped ideas that could conceivably be inspired by this novel. But ultimately I think it should be in an original story.
  • edited January 17 Posts: 264
    jobo wrote: »
    I know I am going against the Fleming faithful sentiments on these boards, but I honestly don't think Moonraker is a good idea for adaptation either. Back when the novel was written, the concept of a nuclear destruction threat towards a major city was relatively fresh. It isn't anymore. It's been done to death, both outside the world of Bond, but also in the classic Bond films and on a much greater scale. For the general audience it will come off as a tired cliché and scream of a lack of creativity. - "Oh really, you're doing that again are you? You've really got no other ideas?"

    After decades of Cold War the world is tired of this storyline.

    Agree, and the character of Hugo Drax has run out of potential options for hating Britain. The Nazis who fought in WWII are long gone, somebody who could have fought for the Soviets and switched would be 52 at youngest and faking your ID would be almost impossible in the 90s when the identity swap would happen.
    Graves stole the idea of British hero gone wrong, and we've had oodles of rich, legal businessmen with vague intentions.
    If Hugo Drax was adapted today, he'd probably be as effective as Sir Maxwell Tarn.
  • edited January 17 Posts: 1,462
    Moonraker could work as a period piece.

    A 50's James Bond movie is fresh but...Indiana Jones killed that.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 17 Posts: 6,396
    Moonraker could work as a period piece.

    A 50's James Bond movie is fresh but...Indiana Jones killed that.

    The movies are financially dependent on product placement, so a period piece is out.

    Nazis are easy enemies to draw but not so much the Chinese, etc. Terrorists are not fun, and a lot of the world conflict involves people of different races and ethnicities, and I don't see Eon wading into that. (TLD was an exception.). Say you reimagined Drax as an Indian national who was secretly Pakistani...I just don't think Eon will go there anymore.

    Bond has become too dependent on international box office to alienate potential audiences.

    But I wouldn't be surprised to see a Russian as an enemy in Bond 26. Putin is as deplorable and megalomaniacal as Nazis these days, and you-know-who is basically the literary Krest.
  • Posts: 1,462
    echo wrote: »
    Moonraker could work as a period piece.

    A 50's James Bond movie is fresh but...Indiana Jones killed that.

    The movies are financially dependent on product placement, so a period piece is out.

    I know. They need Aston Martin's money.
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