Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,379
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I have great respect for writers. And I flatly reject - @007HallY - your view that any writer worth their salt knows that you can't create something from absolutely nothing.

    That's exactly what talented writers do. They create a marvelous story from a blank page. That's what Fleming did. Every novel he wrote began as a blank page on a typewriter. If a writer these days can't create something from nothing, Fleming must have been a genius.

    A talented writer has all they need: a character named James Bond and a familiar cast of supporting roles. And imagination.

    I respectfully disagree. By and large, the Moore and Brosnan eras did just that, and they were weaker for it. Incorporating Fleming, even just as a launching pad a la TLD, results in a far richer film.
  • edited September 12 Posts: 572
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I have great respect for writers. And I flatly reject - @007HallY - your view that any writer worth their salt knows that you can't create something from absolutely nothing.

    That's exactly what talented writers do. They create a marvelous story from a blank page. That's what Fleming did. Every novel he wrote began as a blank page on a typewriter. If a writer these days can't create something from nothing, Fleming must have been a genius.

    A talented writer has all they need: a character named James Bond and a familiar cast of supporting roles. And imagination.

    Nothing comes from nothing. Fleming did not just pluck Bond out of thin air, it was a sum of his War experience, his personal anxieties about fatherhood/marriage, and a great deal of tropes from the pre-existing pulp/action literature.

    The lines of "adaptation" and "original" in fiction, especially genre fiction, are blurrier than one suspects! Imagination is something that needs fuel to grow. It is like a tree.

    Bond screenwriters pulling from Fleming is no different than Fleming pulling from prior authors for certain tropes or character archetypes.
  • edited September 12 Posts: 2,294
    To be fair, I always thought Moore started out playing a more "Flemingesque" Bond in Live and Let Die. He's much more serious and stern as opposed to some of his later films. Even broadly speaking his era started to incorporate more elements of Fleming beginning with For Your Eyes Only and continuing through with Octopussy. Sure the serious tone of the books wasn't entirely replicated, but I don't think Moore's era was weaker because of its lack of fidelity to Fleming. One of my favorite bits from the entire series is the scene in For Your Eyes Only where he's dragged with Melina through the ocean being cut by the coral reef and attracting the attention of sharks.

    I'd actually say the same about half of Brosnan's tenure as well seeing as how Goldeneye is one of the more beloved films of the series (and a favorite amongst general audiences as well) and Tomorrow Never Dies has undergone a bit of a re-evaluation amongst certain groups these days, and as mentioned above; Goldeneye and Die Another Day at least take influence from Fleming's Moonraker, while The World is Not Enough is clearly trying to replicate On Her Majesty's Secret Service (and perhaps not succeeding at such.) Brosnan's Bond himself has some great moments steeped in Fleming throughout his tenure. The scene that always springs to mind is the bit in Tomorrow Never Dies where he's alone, next to a bottle of Champagne and equipping the silencer on his PPK.

    I think it's largely forgotten that each Fleming novel is different from one another tonally speaking. Casino Royale and From Russia With Love come across as more grittier adaptations of their works because the source material source themselves are much more gritier compared to say Moonraker or Dr. No (the books) which are much more fantastical thus lending themselves for the liberties taken in their adaptations. I can understand why EON felt Fleming's Moonraker was a bit out of date for 1979, especially after the success of Star Wars. Regardless of the polarizing nature of EON's Moonraker, it did help ensure the series' survival going into the 80's and the same can be said of Brosnan's tenure.

    EON can't always please the Fleming purists.
    BMB007 wrote: »

    Nothing comes from nothing. Fleming did not just pluck Bond out of thin air, it was a sum of his War experience, his personal anxieties about fatherhood/marriage, and a great deal of tropes from the pre-existing pulp/action literature.

    The lines of "adaptation" and "original" in fiction, especially genre fiction, are blurrier than one suspects! Imagination is something that needs fuel to grow. It is like a tree.

    Bond screenwriters pulling from Fleming is no different than Fleming pulling from prior authors for certain tropes or character archetypes.

    Exactly. So much has been made up about how Fleming took influence from various people he met during WWII as well as his own fantasies; but it's also important to note that Fleming also took influence from authors such as Raymond Chandler, John Buchan, or even Mickey Spillane. In fact, characters like Bulldog Drummond, Richard Hannay, Philip Marlowe, and Mike Hammer all predate Bond and have arguably influenced Fleming's initial conception of the character.
  • Posts: 1,448
    CrabKey wrote: »
    So, a faithful adaptation can't be done. Bond novels are too out of date for today's audiences. Those stories can't even be updated because they are so old fashioned. But taking bits and pieces from MR and using them over and over is always new and creative. Great scriptwriting. Why settle for a contemporary version of MR when you can settle for a scene or two from MR and call it good.

    The original film and every Bond film that has cribbed something from MR is a lesser work than the original novel itself.

    With so many rubbish adaptations, I don't think the original novels have been exhausted.

    I don't mind if Bond films are written from scratch, but I don't need to see another film that borrows something from one of the novels. All that does is remind me that the film I am watching doesn't trust itself to be completely original.

    Bond, the music, and the supporting players are reminder enough that I am watching a Bond film.

    They said Casino Royale was "unfilmable"...and now it's probably the best movie Barbara has ever made.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,800
    CrabKey wrote: »
    So, a faithful adaptation can't be done. Bond novels are too out of date for today's audiences. Those stories can't even be updated because they are so old fashioned. But taking bits and pieces from MR and using them over and over is always new and creative. Great scriptwriting. Why settle for a contemporary version of MR when you can settle for a scene or two from MR and call it good.

    The original film and every Bond film that has cribbed something from MR is a lesser work than the original novel itself.

    With so many rubbish adaptations, I don't think the original novels have been exhausted.

    I don't mind if Bond films are written from scratch, but I don't need to see another film that borrows something from one of the novels. All that does is remind me that the film I am watching doesn't trust itself to be completely original.

    Bond, the music, and the supporting players are reminder enough that I am watching a Bond film.

    They said Casino Royale was "unfilmable"...and now it's probably the best movie Barbara has ever made.

    The best is subjective, some of the fans in here ranked the film at middle and not number 1, some prefer Skyfall to it, or Goldeneye (latter, is in my case).
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 701
    CrabKey wrote: »
    So, a faithful adaptation can't be done. Bond novels are too out of date for today's audiences. Those stories can't even be updated because they are so old fashioned. But taking bits and pieces from MR and using them over and over is always new and creative. Great scriptwriting. Why settle for a contemporary version of MR when you can settle for a scene or two from MR and call it good.

    The original film and every Bond film that has cribbed something from MR is a lesser work than the original novel itself.

    With so many rubbish adaptations, I don't think the original novels have been exhausted.

    I don't mind if Bond films are written from scratch, but I don't need to see another film that borrows something from one of the novels. All that does is remind me that the film I am watching doesn't trust itself to be completely original.

    Bond, the music, and the supporting players are reminder enough that I am watching a Bond film.

    They said Casino Royale was "unfilmable"...and now it's probably the best movie Barbara has ever made.

    They weren't able to film CR prior to the 2000s because they didn't have the rights. I know Tarantino claimed they said it was unfilmable after he tried and failed to get the rights himself, but I suspect he was just trying to save face by claiming it was his idea.
  • Posts: 1,448
    CrabKey wrote: »
    So, a faithful adaptation can't be done. Bond novels are too out of date for today's audiences. Those stories can't even be updated because they are so old fashioned. But taking bits and pieces from MR and using them over and over is always new and creative. Great scriptwriting. Why settle for a contemporary version of MR when you can settle for a scene or two from MR and call it good.

    The original film and every Bond film that has cribbed something from MR is a lesser work than the original novel itself.

    With so many rubbish adaptations, I don't think the original novels have been exhausted.

    I don't mind if Bond films are written from scratch, but I don't need to see another film that borrows something from one of the novels. All that does is remind me that the film I am watching doesn't trust itself to be completely original.

    Bond, the music, and the supporting players are reminder enough that I am watching a Bond film.

    They said Casino Royale was "unfilmable"...and now it's probably the best movie Barbara has ever made.

    They weren't able to film CR prior to the 2000s because they didn't have the rights. I know Tarantino claimed they said it was unfilmable after he tried and failed to get the rights himself, but I suspect he was just trying to save face by claiming it was his idea.

    No, they said that. I read it too at that time. Tarantino didn't lie.
  • edited September 12 Posts: 4,299
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I have great respect for writers. And I flatly reject - @007HallY - your view that any writer worth their salt knows that you can't create something from absolutely nothing.

    That's exactly what talented writers do. They create a marvelous story from a blank page. That's what Fleming did. Every novel he wrote began as a blank page on a typewriter. If a writer these days can't create something from nothing, Fleming must have been a genius.

    A talented writer has all they need: a character named James Bond and a familiar cast of supporting roles. And imagination.

    On a basic level that's just not how it works. @BMB007 said it exceptionally well:
    BMB007 wrote: »

    Nothing comes from nothing. Fleming did not just pluck Bond out of thin air, it was a sum of his War experience, his personal anxieties about fatherhood/marriage, and a great deal of tropes from the pre-existing pulp/action literature.

    The lines of "adaptation" and "original" in fiction, especially genre fiction, are blurrier than one suspects! Imagination is something that needs fuel to grow. It is like a tree.

    Bond screenwriters pulling from Fleming is no different than Fleming pulling from prior authors for certain tropes or character archetypes.


    Sure, every writer begins with a blank page, but what they fill that page with has to draw on something. It's the old adage 'write what you know', whether that means drawing on personal experiences, passions, wider interests, or even what genres/kind of stories a writer knows well. All of that is what Fleming used to write Bond.

    CrabKey wrote: »
    So, a faithful adaptation can't be done. Bond novels are too out of date for today's audiences. Those stories can't even be updated because they are so old fashioned. But taking bits and pieces from MR and using them over and over is always new and creative. Great scriptwriting. Why settle for a contemporary version of MR when you can settle for a scene or two from MR and call it good.

    The original film and every Bond film that has cribbed something from MR is a lesser work than the original novel itself.

    With so many rubbish adaptations, I don't think the original novels have been exhausted.

    I don't mind if Bond films are written from scratch, but I don't need to see another film that borrows something from one of the novels. All that does is remind me that the film I am watching doesn't trust itself to be completely original.

    Bond, the music, and the supporting players are reminder enough that I am watching a Bond film.

    They said Casino Royale was "unfilmable"...and now it's probably the best movie Barbara has ever made.

    They weren't able to film CR prior to the 2000s because they didn't have the rights. I know Tarantino claimed they said it was unfilmable after he tried and failed to get the rights himself, but I suspect he was just trying to save face by claiming it was his idea.

    No, they said that. I read it too at that time. Tarantino didn't lie.

    Tarantino's claims about his 'CR adaptation' are messy to be fair. I suspect what happened at the time was the rights were up in the air and Miramax (not necessarily Tarantino himself, at least initially) had their sights on it. Tarantino was used to reach out to the Fleming estate, who then confirmed that while they had the rights to the book, a deal with EON meant they wouldn't sell it to a third party.

    There's an interview with Tarantino in 1997 discussing his attempt to do this film. He claimed that the book ends with Bond killing Vesper, which is obviously not correct. He also seemed to believe the book takes place in the 1960s. I doubt he had read the book in a very long time prior to that (if at all, but that's me being really cynical). As EON's CR was announced he piped up again about it, claiming his version would have involved Brosnan in the role, that it'd be about an older Bond after Tracy's death, and it'd be set in the 60s. It makes no sense as presumably he tried to get these rights in the mid-90s when Brosnan was the official Bond and relatively young. I don't know if Miramax/Tarantino made a second attempt to get the rights in the 2000s, which might explain these claims (although why they'd bother again at that point is a bit of a head scratcher). Obviously EON weren't going to hire him to direct, and the way Tarantino talks about it implies he was working independently on the project (which again would make no sense if there was never a chance he'd get the rights). I suspect he was just riffing about what he'd hypothetically do at that point.

    I doubt he ever seriously thought about adapting CR (again, there's a chance he hadn't even read the book before the mid-90s!) I certainly don't think he had any influence in EON's decision to adapt CR. I suspect that he played it up a bit.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,186
    I'm not even sure Tarantino would know what to do with a Bond film. Tarantino's films are more intimate, not sure he can handle the vast style of the Bond films. Nobody wants a Reservoir Dogs style for a Bond film. He's good at what he does. Although, I don't like the way he indulges too much in violence, to a point you would think it's something he would secretly like to do in real life.
  • edited September 12 Posts: 1,448
    EON bought the rights to Casino Royale for the same reason they bought NSNA. And yes, they said it was unfilmable. They changed their minds, that's for sure.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,168
    Despite making a few films that are truly great, Tarantino isn’t quite as good as he thinks he is.
    I don’t think he would’ve made a version of CR that was any better than the film EON and Martin Campbell gave us.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 950
    Benny wrote: »
    Despite making a few films that are truly great, Tarantino isn’t quite as good as he thinks he is.
    I don’t think he would’ve made a version of CR that was any better than the film EON and Martin Campbell gave us.

    Yeah, his sensibilities aren't right for Bond. He is fantastic at building suspense (the basement-bar scene in Inglorious Basterds), but his fascination with ultraviolence is too much for Bond, imo.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,677
    QBranch wrote: »
    How about a scene at the white cliffs of Dover, and at the house there that was Fleming's old residence.
    echo wrote: »
    We got that in DAD. And surfing, to boot.
    Well I should be grateful then, huh. 😅
  • Posts: 4,299
    Benny wrote: »
    Despite making a few films that are truly great, Tarantino isn’t quite as good as he thinks he is.
    I don’t think he would’ve made a version of CR that was any better than the film EON and Martin Campbell gave us.

    Yeah, his sensibilities aren't right for Bond. He is fantastic at building suspense (the basement-bar scene in Inglorious Basterds), but his fascination with ultraviolence is too much for Bond, imo.

    Love Inglorious. But yeah, I don't think Tarantino would have been right for Bond, and I find his claims that he was the reason EON decided to make CR very questionable. He doesn't even seem all that into Bond from what he's written about the films.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 12 Posts: 3,157
    I don't like the way he indulges too much in violence, to a point you would think it's something he would secretly like to do in real life.
    Have to say, I thought that what Tex and Sadie got in Once Upon A Time in Hollywood is exactly what they should have got in real life.

  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,186
    Venutius wrote: »
    I don't like the way he indulges too much in violence, to a point you would think it's something he would secretly like to do in real life.
    Have to say, I thought that what Tex and Sadie got in Once Upon A Time in Hollywood is exactly what they should have got in real life.

    Well, true that. They committed one of the most heinous crimes in history. Very disgusting crime! But I just feel it was an excuse for Tarantino to feed his insatiable hunger for violence.
  • I’m not sure what a Tarantino version of Casino Royale would look like. I’d imagine it’d feature Brosnan saying the F-Word a lot and Tarantino finding some way of appeasing his foot fetish using one of the female leads. Maybe Bond could talk about the difference between Quiche made in England and Quiche made in Paris.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,186
    I’m not sure what a Tarantino version of Casino Royale would look like. I’d imagine it’d feature Brosnan saying the F-Word a lot and Tarantino finding some way of appeasing his foot fetish using one of the female leads. Maybe Bond could talk about the difference between Quiche made in England and Quiche made in Paris.

    Yes. Tarantino's version of Bond would be loquacious...something we wouldn't like. Yes, and like you say...there's also the foot fetish thing.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,157
    Well, true that. They committed one of the most heinous crimes in history. Very disgusting crime! But I just feel it was an excuse for Tarantino to feed his insatiable hunger for violence.
    Yeah, probably. I found it quite cathartic, though, tbh!

  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,677
    I’m not sure what a Tarantino version of Casino Royale would look like. I’d imagine it’d feature Brosnan saying the F-Word a lot and Tarantino finding some way of appeasing his foot fetish using one of the female leads. Maybe Bond could talk about the difference between Quiche made in England and Quiche made in Paris.
    Yeah there would definitely be a focus on what Vesper can do with her little toe.
  • Posts: 2,026
    SIS_HQ wrote: »

    The best is subjective, some of the fans in here ranked the film at middle and not number 1, some prefer Skyfall to it, or Goldeneye (latter, is in my case).

    True. We like what we like.

    I wonder how many base their opinions on the age of a film and production values. For example, does one prefer SF over Connery's films because those early films look dated?
  • Posts: 1,448
    Well, Casino Royale (the novel) suits Tarantino better than EON. And I love the EON's version.

    An indie movie, why not ? Benson wanted to do a stage play.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,800
    CrabKey wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »

    The best is subjective, some of the fans in here ranked the film at middle and not number 1, some prefer Skyfall to it, or Goldeneye (latter, is in my case).

    True. We like what we like.

    I wonder how many base their opinions on the age of a film and production values. For example, does one prefer SF over Connery's films because those early films look dated?

    Depends upon the people, some may do, I do see some people rank Skyfall over Goldfinger, and of course many people disliked the Dalton films for how dated they are, particularly, Licence To Kill which many still view as a generic 80s action film like Miami Vice.
  • CrabKey wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »

    The best is subjective, some of the fans in here ranked the film at middle and not number 1, some prefer Skyfall to it, or Goldeneye (latter, is in my case).

    True. We like what we like.

    I wonder how many base their opinions on the age of a film and production values. For example, does one prefer SF over Connery's films because those early films look dated?

    I’ve seen people unfairly criticize the Connery era for that exact reason which is fairly misguided. Some of those earlier Bond films are still 10x better than most of the generic action films that are coming out these days that younger audiences tend to prefer.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 950
    When I was a kid I thought the Connery Bonds were kind of old fashioned because of that 50's and conservative 60's style: the hats, the old fashion not-so-streamlined car etc compared to the Roger Moore Bond films that were coming out, with the more relaxed style of dress and the space-age sports car. Now I think the Connery's look 'classic', while the Moore's look kind of dated.
  • edited September 12 Posts: 4,299
    Films always become dated to some extent. Not much anyone can do about that. I’m sure there are people who won’t watch certain Bond films for that reason.

    Personally, I think something like FRWL looks and feels quite classic. It’s got that wonderful ‘technicolour’ feel you get with certain Hitchcock films if that makes sense. It’s of its time but timeless in some weird way. SF’s quite a modern looking film but has a similar timeless feel to it in terms of look/tone.
  • Posts: 2,026
    I absolutely see that. It's great when you can move beyond a film looking old and dated. NxNW and Vertigo I can watch over and over. Once you're no longer bothered by effects and things like that but can focus on the acting and the story, that's what classic films are all about.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 13 Posts: 3,800
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I absolutely see that. It's great when you can move beyond a film looking old and dated. NxNW and Vertigo I can watch over and over. Once you're no longer bothered by effects and things like that but can focus on the acting and the story, that's what classic films are all about.

    But I'm still bothered by the likes of FYEO, LALD, TMWTGG, DAF, and YOLT, I've got through the effects and visuals, and just focus on the acting and the story, but it does nothing for me.

  • edited September 13 Posts: 2,026
    Of the Moore films, LALD is my favorite. But none of his films fall into the classic category for me. Primarily, he never convinced me he was Bond and I agree about YOLT and DAF. For me the Connery era ended with TB. By the time Moore era rolled around, big and outrageous became bloated and outlandish. All of his films have their moments, but not enough for me to count them among my favorites, LALD excepted.

    Today's films which feature unparalleled technology designed to look and feel real can often have the opposite effect. It will be interesting to see which Craig films will achieve classic status.
  • Posts: 1,448
    All movies age. Like I said GE looks like an old Moore movie. It no longer seems contemporary.
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