The What if EON casts an older actor for the next Bond? (late forties, early 50's)

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  • edited November 2 Posts: 4,230
    True. I’m sure they’ve had lawyers go through all of this and come up with precautions. I know in the days of CR’s rights being up in the air you have things like Miramax’s attempts to buy it prevented due to EON having a deal with the Fleming estate (which is where we get Tarantino’s ‘unmade’ CR which paradoxically was never planned so could never have been made anyway).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,334
    mtm wrote: »
    My hazy understanding of copyright and trademark means I think that although CR may go into public domain, Eon/MGM’s indefinite trademark on James Bond 007 means that if anyone makes a version of CR which could be confused for being the work of the trademark holders (ie Eon) then they could be open to being sued. That’s pretty much the situation around early Mickey Mouse now he’s gone public domain: if you do anything vaguely Disneyish with him then they’ll come down on you as the trademark holders.
    And as Eon’s Bond films have varied in style so widely over the course of the series, that only really leaves room for wildly different interpretations like all-female musicals or zombie versions. I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think we’ll ever get non-Eon Bond films which are in the style of the films we’ve become used to, at least not until Danjaq/MGM give up their trademark on 007, and why would they.

    That's right.

    Plus, Disney makes *so* much money on the theme parks and merchandise that they come down hard on anyone who dares challenge them. Because Disney goes first in the timeline, Eon has the benefit of sitting back, watching Disney, and copying their legal tactics. If there's one thing MGW understands, it's the law.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2 Posts: 16,502
    Yeah that's true, he's a lawyer isn't he. As HallY says, they'll have had teams of lawyers looking into this for years; if there's one thing they have it's lots and lots of money.
  • Posts: 15,159
    007HallY wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I do think it's possible NTTD is the last Eon Bond film. If Barbara and MIchael were to sell to Amazon, I suppose there's a greater chance the franchise would go to streaming like that Beverly Hills Cop movie. I rarely watch straight to streaming content myself. For a new Bond I might, though. But to me streaming is the modern version of direct to video.

    I really don't feel like Barbara and Michael would sell Bond, though. They're very protective of Bond. Why let somebody else come in and screw it up?

    Barbara and Michael could just retire. I think enough time would pass that Bond becomes a beloved memory to the general public with a 59 year catalogue of films to enjoy.

    When the novels become public domain, someone could come along and do their version of CASINO ROYALE, whether it be released cinematically or made for streaming. Sure it wouldn't have the Bond theme, titles, gunbarrel, etc, but I doubt that would bother the general public as long as it's solid and entertaining.

    Thing is they are in the public domain in Canada and Japan. I think if it were going to happen it would have been attempted by now (the most we’ve gotten is an all female Casino Royale musical, which doesn’t clash with the films and is a nice Bond oddity. That and I guess a bunch of fan fiction being sold through Canada).

    Some Canadian director wanted to adapt FYEO, based on public domain laws. Not sure where that project went, if anywhere.
  • Posts: 2,008
    None of the film elements identified with an official EON Bond will go into the public domain. The logos, gun barrel, music, are copyrighted and/or trademarked. They'll become part of the package sold to whomever takes over.

    It's possible once the novels enter the public domain, a Bond purist might want to make a Bond film true to a novel and not worry about the familiar elements we associate with an EON production. Those elements are pretty well baked in. It would be like a Stars War film without the Star Wars theme.

    Without the traditional elements we identify with an EON Bond film, we'll end up with something along the lines NSNA. Not a bad film really, it just didn't feel like a Bond film even with SC.

    We'll reach a point where there are so many Bond novels of wildly varying quality, Bond will cease to be unique.

    So maybe this long pause is more than about Bond 26.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2 Posts: 16,502
    CrabKey wrote: »
    It's possible once the novels enter the public domain, a Bond purist might want to make a Bond film true to a novel and not worry about the familiar elements we associate with an EON production.

    As per the above, it’s unlikely for the reasons we set out. Danjaq/MGM would likely have a legal case even after the copyright runs out due to their trademark on the character.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,334
    It would have to take a creator with deep pockets to take on Eon and Amazon in court.

    With NSNA, McClory et al had those deep pockets but they also had an enforceable legal agreement from 1965. And critically, they had Connery.

    Could, theoretically, someone try to do a faithful film adaptation of CR? Sure.

    But every element of that film will be scrutinized by copyright lawyers, and anything that looks like it comes from an Eon film--or even a Fleming novel that has not yet passed into the public domain--will be scrubbed.

    You thought the NTTD delays were long? Just wait.
  • edited November 2 Posts: 1,396
    They could make "The son of James Bond" or something like that.

    Anyway, the Bond theme can't save them forever. These elements are a creative prison for EON.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,502

    Anyway, the Bond theme can't save them forever. These elements are a creative prison for EON.

    What on earth does that even mean.
  • Posts: 1,396
    mtm wrote: »

    Anyway, the Bond theme can't save them forever. These elements are a creative prison for EON.

    What on earth does that even mean.

    You can't be fresh if you depends on the brand.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2 Posts: 16,502
    dungeons-and-dragons-dungeon-master.gif

    Sure
  • Posts: 1,396
    Feeding the Aston Martin brand is already a creative prison.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,657
    Feeding the Aston Martin brand is already a creative prison.

    Not really. It's just something that comes back every now and then for Bond.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,449
    The tropes of a Bond movie are many. The producers have played with them through the years to varying success. In some ways tropes are wonderful because they are familiar beats that the audience look forward to. The Gunbarrel start, the provocative opening title sequence, the Bond theme, etc. But they can also give the whole thing a paint by numbers feel.

    To the question at hand. Based on the treatment of IP by other companies I do wonder if Bond would be Bond. EON does know what the audience wants and does their darnedest to deliver. They made adventures that demanded the big screen. If they go, does the new company want to narrow the scale? Do they want to create a "universe" of which Bond is a character within? I think it raises enough questions for me to say I hope NTTD is NOT the last EON produced Bond film.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,619
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Feeding the Aston Martin brand is already a creative prison.

    Not really. It's just something that comes back every now and then for Bond.
    It comes back every now and then in every consecutive film since GoldenEye. The fact is some of us are tired of seeing the Astons, as lovely as they are. The films went a whole era without said brand and got by just fine. It would be like having Felix Leiter in every film or visiting a casino in every film. Some are happy to lap that up, some see the monotony.

    You can bet the next era will see Bond taking a *ahem* back seat while an anthropomorphic spy car goes on his own adventures, finding himself in cross country races and chasing sporty female Astons. Returning in Deebie: Rather Stocked Fully Loaded; Deebie Goes to Monte Carlo (again); Deebie goes bananas etc. (this last one is the revenge sequel after Deebie's love interest gets drowned by the evil Jag with the eyepatch)

    And yes, I will happily continue to buy the toy Astons released with each new film!
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,449
    Thought I would pop in and suggest another "what if" that ponders the future of the series.

    What if EON choses to re-boot the series again with an origin story of Bond?

    If we begin from scratch again would the movie going public respond to this? What are the pros and cons of starting over? What age would you like to see a new Bond be? Do you think this is a viable way to take the next film with a new actor?

    Have fun and think about the next fella and what the first film might look like if it was a "re-boot".
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,334
    I would hate it, just like when they kept rebooting Spiderman. Given that Barbara Broccoli has a good relationship with Amy Pascal, I'd bet this could happen.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,619
    Don't care for it. Give me Year 2 Bond.
  • Posts: 15,159
    QBranch wrote: »
    Don't care for it. Give me Year 2 Bond.

    I think that's what they're going to go for. Which will be a reboot, but not exactly Bond begins.
  • edited November 28 Posts: 4,230
    We’ve never had a ‘Bond begins’.

    CR was Bond’s first mission as 007 (I guess anyway) but it’s certainly not an origin story akin to the 2010s Spiderman reboot or Batman Begins. Bond’s already an established agent/professional/killer, in his prime, and is pretty much a version of the Bond we know. An origin story would probably show Bond prior to becoming 007.

    You can do it I guess. We know for instance Project 007 will seemingly be about Bond attaining his 00 status. That’d certainly be different to CR if done in a film, but I can’t see it happening.

    If you mean we go back to the point CR did (basically Bond’s first mission as 007, or even a very early one) then it wouldn’t be as striking as many are likely to think here. Forever and A Day did it. A Bond film could have a similar premise with a recently promoted Bond being sent on a mission. I’d argue that’s not radically different to even a ‘year 2’ concept.

    Honestly, short of them doing something really weird like focusing on Bond’s navy days or showing him as a kid it’s really not a big deal.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 28 Posts: 16,502
    Yeah exactly, I think it's possible to do it and still be quite different from CR.

    I've thought for a while that you could even show the Double O section being formed for the first time; that'd be a new spin on it.
  • Posts: 15,159
    I think CR was as close as we can get to Bond Begins. Yes, it's not an origin story in the strict sense, but it had elements of it and was hyped as such. But I doubt they'll do a second CR.

    On a side note, in many ways SF and to a lesser extent SP are just as much if not more origin stories than CR. But that's for another topic.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,334
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah exactly, I think it's possible to do it and still be quite different from CR.

    I've thought for a while that you could even show the Double O section being formed for the first time; that'd be a new spin on it.

    Interesting.

    Considering that they spun an entire movie out of Madeleine's one line in SP, I'd say they could come up with a movie built around, say, Bond's assassination of the Japanese cipher clerk.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,657
    It would be unique to see Bond's ACTUAL family. Instead of using MI6 as a surrogate. It might be time to see a TRUE EON Bond origin story, in the modern day.
  • edited November 29 Posts: 4,230
    I know Tom Holland tried to pitch EON a Bond origin film which became Uncharted eventually. To be honest, I suspect it’s the sort of thing they’ve thought about in the past and decided against doing, with CR being the closest they’d go.

    The thing about Bond is he’s a pretty enigmatic character who rarely looks back himself. Even in GE, SF, and SP there’s a sense of restraint in how much they tell us (Bond certainly never talks about his past too openly and certainly not sentimentally), and with SP and GE specifically it’s much more about the villain’s past than Bond’s.

    Personally, I think Bond’s most interesting as a seasoned professional - preferably when he’s 007. I don’t think we need to know too much about his past and I think showing his family directly is a big no-no (Bond is a loner fundamentally, and Fleming makes clear he has no living relatives), and in practice an origin film would be surprisingly boring.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited November 29 Posts: 2,124
    007HallY wrote: »
    I know Tom Holland tried to pitch EON a Bond origin film which became Uncharted eventually. To be honest, I suspect it’s the sort of thing they’ve thought about in the past and decided against doing, with CR being the closest they’d go.

    The thing about Bond is he’s a pretty enigmatic character who rarely looks back himself. Even in GE, SF, and SP there’s a sense of restraint in how much they tell us (Bond certainly never talks about his past too openly and certainly not sentimentally), and with SP and GE specifically it’s much more about the villain’s past than Bond’s.

    Personally, I think Bond’s most interesting as a seasoned professional - preferably when he’s 007. I don’t think we need to know too much about his past and I think showing his family directly is a big no-no (Bond is a loner fundamentally, and Fleming makes clear he has no living relatives), and in practice an origin film would be surprisingly boring.

    Yeah. Well put. CR did it brilliantly, so don't need an origin story anymore...and like you said it can be boring. In fact, I think Nolan was the first director to make an origin story interesting with Batman Begins. Because before Nolan, most directors usually showed the character's step-by-step evolution in such a linear way that most scenes become boring and lack rewatch value. CR did it brilliantly without following Nolan's non-linear style.
    SF showed Bond's past well too, But SP perhaps went a bit too far, all in all, it wasn't that ultra-terrible. So for the next era, they can continue with the villain and his past. The femme fatale and her past. Felix's past, Q's past, etc. They can do anything, but just let Bond be Bond and let him remain mysterious, without us knowing anything more about him...maybe little sprinkles here and there, but nothing too profound or it being the main plot.
  • Posts: 1,396
    A movie like Spymaker is possible but it's a bit redundant after Casino Royale.
  • edited November 29 Posts: 4,230
    007HallY wrote: »
    I know Tom Holland tried to pitch EON a Bond origin film which became Uncharted eventually. To be honest, I suspect it’s the sort of thing they’ve thought about in the past and decided against doing, with CR being the closest they’d go.

    The thing about Bond is he’s a pretty enigmatic character who rarely looks back himself. Even in GE, SF, and SP there’s a sense of restraint in how much they tell us (Bond certainly never talks about his past too openly and certainly not sentimentally), and with SP and GE specifically it’s much more about the villain’s past than Bond’s.

    Personally, I think Bond’s most interesting as a seasoned professional - preferably when he’s 007. I don’t think we need to know too much about his past and I think showing his family directly is a big no-no (Bond is a loner fundamentally, and Fleming makes clear he has no living relatives), and in practice an origin film would be surprisingly boring.

    Yeah. Well put. CR did it brilliantly, so don't need an origin story anymore...and like you said it can be boring. In fact, I think Nolan was the first director to make an origin story interesting with Batman Begins. Because before Nolan, most directors usually showed the character's step-by-step evolution in such a linear way that most scenes become boring and lack rewatch value. CR did it brilliantly without following Nolan's non-linear style.
    SF showed Bond's past well too, But SP perhaps went a bit too far, all in all, it wasn't that ultra-terrible. So for the next era, they can continue with the villain and his past. The femme fatale and her past. Felix's past, Q's past, etc. They can do anything, but just let Bond be Bond and let him remain mysterious, without us knowing anything more about him...maybe little sprinkles here and there, but nothing too profound or it being the main plot.

    I think SP only fumbles insofar as the idea of Blofeld and Bond knowing each other as kids is a bit eye rolling. Otherwise there’s actually even less about Bond’s past than in SF and how it impacts him.

    I like Batman Begins, but the non linear origin story I don’t think benefitted Man of Steel (haven’t seen it in a while, but it’s a very strangely ordered film - IIRC we see Kent saving people earlier on in the film as an adult, but later in the narrative, which feels like it should be a later decision in the story that makes him become Superman). I’m glad CR didn’t go down the route of a Bond in his 20s who’d never worn a tuxedo before (that’s another issue with a Bond origin story like that - it’s not Bond as we know him, whereas you can more easily have a Batman/Superman one as their origins are baked into the concept of their characters. Again, Bond’s more mysterious).
  • Posts: 15,159
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I know Tom Holland tried to pitch EON a Bond origin film which became Uncharted eventually. To be honest, I suspect it’s the sort of thing they’ve thought about in the past and decided against doing, with CR being the closest they’d go.

    The thing about Bond is he’s a pretty enigmatic character who rarely looks back himself. Even in GE, SF, and SP there’s a sense of restraint in how much they tell us (Bond certainly never talks about his past too openly and certainly not sentimentally), and with SP and GE specifically it’s much more about the villain’s past than Bond’s.

    Personally, I think Bond’s most interesting as a seasoned professional - preferably when he’s 007. I don’t think we need to know too much about his past and I think showing his family directly is a big no-no (Bond is a loner fundamentally, and Fleming makes clear he has no living relatives), and in practice an origin film would be surprisingly boring.

    Yeah. Well put. CR did it brilliantly, so don't need an origin story anymore...and like you said it can be boring. In fact, I think Nolan was the first director to make an origin story interesting with Batman Begins. Because before Nolan, most directors usually showed the character's step-by-step evolution in such a linear way that most scenes become boring and lack rewatch value. CR did it brilliantly without following Nolan's non-linear style.
    SF showed Bond's past well too, But SP perhaps went a bit too far, all in all, it wasn't that ultra-terrible. So for the next era, they can continue with the villain and his past. The femme fatale and her past. Felix's past, Q's past, etc. They can do anything, but just let Bond be Bond and let him remain mysterious, without us knowing anything more about him...maybe little sprinkles here and there, but nothing too profound or it being the main plot.

    I think SP only fumbles insofar as the idea of Blofeld and Bond knowing each other as kids is a bit eye rolling. Otherwise there’s actually even less about Bond’s past than in SF and how it impacts him.

    I like Batman Begins, but the non linear origin story I don’t think benefitted Man of Steel (haven’t seen it in a while, but it’s a very strangely ordered film - IIRC we see Kent saving people earlier on in the film as an adult, but later in the narrative, which feels like it should be a later decision in the story that makes him become Superman). I’m glad CR didn’t go down the route of a Bond in his 20s who’d never worn a tuxedo before (that’s another issue with a Bond origin story like that - it’s not Bond as we know him, whereas you can more easily have a Batman/Superman one as their origins are baked into the concept of their characters. Again, Bond’s more mysterious).

    An origin story works better for a superhero, as it is inherent to the genre: an ordinary person receives extraordinary powers, in one form or another. For crime fiction, adventure stories or spy thrillers, origin stories risk looking like a dramatised CV, or a biopic. In fact, they are pretty much fictional versions of biopics. And biography gets in the way of story and plot.

    I am interested to see how Peter Parker got superpowers (albeit not as often as it has been depicted on the big screen), or how Bruce Wayne became Batman. But how James Bond turned into 007, I think it should remain mostly background. I love to see how he got his Aston Martin in CR, but I don't care for a story that would explain how he loves this particular brand of car, or when he drank his very first martini.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,502
    007HallY wrote: »
    I know Tom Holland tried to pitch EON a Bond origin film which became Uncharted eventually.

    I did not know that, that's fascinating.
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