The Craig era - sullied for some?

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  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    edited February 21 Posts: 860
    Tell you what, the Craig era has just been unsullied with the potential of what the future might contain...

    My thinking, too. The last EON Bond actor. Everything changes now, and it's questionable that it'd be for the better.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 120
    slide_99 wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Given that many viewers/fans were not prepared for it is what makes it ahead of its time.
    It was the opposite problem, actually. Every time another franchise had a hit, the Craig films copied it.
    Bourne>QOS
    Batman>SF
    M:I>SP
    Endgame>NTTD
    The Craig era was very much stuck in the tropes of its time, not ahead of them. That's why some fans pulled away from it as it went on. It's why Casino Royale is still the overwhelming favorite, because it's the only one that's confident in just being a James Bond movie.

    Everything SP did was in other Bond movies already. Nothing about it was M:I novelty, if anything it's M:I that copied Bond.
    No Time To Die was written before Endgame came out, and absolutely nothing about NTTD copied Endgame, unless I missed the time travel in No Time to Die or the garden of death in Endgame.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,220
    TripAces wrote: »
    Craig's Bond gave us a fuller view of the man. Few previous Bond films offered such views, and even so they were slight glimpses.... he definitely went deeper into the character than the others.
    Yes. I'd say that's pretty much inarguable, tbh.

  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited February 21 Posts: 749
    We've known who Bond is for almost 70 years. He's not some riddle that needs to be solved and there aren't any mysteries to explore with him. It's not that he's one-dimensional, it's that he's a complete character that doesn't have (or need) some type of arc.

    I don't think Craig's Bond was any deeper than any previous Bond. Bond has always been a fully-fleshed, 3-dimensional character with contradictions, flaws, and pathos. Some movies highlighted these traits more than others, but even in the sillier movies like DAD we see what motivates him, what angers him, why he's so dedicated to his job, etc.

    The idea that Bond's psyche needs to be explored strikes me as silly, a waste of time, and a substitution for an actual story. Giving Bond and Blofeld a shared childhood is not giving the story depth, it's a low-effort gimmick that gives the illusion of depth but actually has no bearing on the plot whatsoever and no consequences for either character.
  • Posts: 6,754
    slide_99 wrote: »
    We've known who Bond is for almost 70 years. He's not some riddle that needs to be solved and there aren't any mysteries to explore with him. It's not that he's one-dimensional, it's that he's a complete character that doesn't have (or need) some type of arc.

    I don't think Craig's Bond was any deeper than any previous Bond. Bond has always been a fully-fleshed, 3-dimensional character with contradictions, flaws, and pathos. Some movies highlighted these traits more than others, but even in the sillier movies like DAD we see what motivates him, what angers him, why he's so dedicated to his job, etc.

    The idea that Bond's psyche needs to be explored strikes me as silly, a waste of time, and a substitution for an actual story. Giving Bond and Blofeld a shared childhood is not giving the story depth, it's a low-effort gimmick that gives the illusion of depth but actually has no bearing on the plot whatsoever and no consequences for either character.

    That pretty much aligns, I think, with the majority of opinions about the matter. I do agree as well. Poor gimmicks, poor writing, poor character treatment. It’s the story in which Bond finds himself immersed that is key, not Bond’s own story. That was telling of some fatigue, I think. Let’s see if someone out there can fly pass that and come up with some original stories.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,612
    TripAces wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Given today's news about EON giving up creative control, No Time To Die will be more poignant

    Jeez. I just read this. Babs truly couldn't go on without Daniel, could she? It's heartbreaking and pathetic at the same time.

    He's just one of many, many actors. A good actor, but hardly irreplaceable.

    Not to her, though. In interviews and public statements, she was enamored with Daniel...almost to the point of, yes, not being able to move on without him.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,675
    I don't think Barbara saw Daniel as just an actor, it was more of a creative partner. It must be a tough blow especially losing MGW at the same time.
    I think she could have continued without one but perhaps without both was too much of an ask
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 749
    Univex wrote: »
    It’s the story in which Bond finds himself immersed that is key, not Bond’s own story.

    Exactly this. Bond is the character we follow as he experiences the story. The story is not Bond himself. This is what annoyed me most about the last three movies.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,154
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    It’s the story in which Bond finds himself immersed that is key, not Bond’s own story.

    Exactly this. Bond is the character we follow as he experiences the story. The story is not Bond himself. This is what annoyed me most about the last three movies.

    In other words, you could easily replace him by a robot. I'd rather watch the adventures of a fully-rounded character whose motives I can understand with a minimum of kitchen psychology. Doesn't mean I subscribe to all the antics the writers put into the last movies, especially not that foster brother nonsense. But it must also be noticed that even that left Bond surprisingly untouched, doing his job in spite of those tribulations. I'm all for that.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 470
    Anyway, the door is now open for Amazon to give us a pre credit sequence in the next Bond movie that shows how James Bond did not actually die, but instead survived, by escaping using the same gadget used by SPECTRE agents earlier in the movie, which takes him back down to the submarine pen.

    Yay

    NB - In "No Time to Die," the SPECTRE agents use a high-tech gadget that looks like a portable anti-gravity device or a personal hover platform. They drop it down the shaft, and then they jump off and use it to float down slowly, defying gravity.
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    edited February 21 Posts: 4,370
    @Seve please don't post this in any more threads, we have taken notice ;)
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 470
    zebrafish wrote: »
    @Seve please don't post this in any more threads, we have taken notice ;)

    No worries, those are the only two threads I felt it was relevant to, but I couldn't make up my mind between them
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    Posts: 575
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I don't think Barbara saw Daniel as just an actor, it was more of a creative partner. It must be a tough blow especially losing MGW at the same time.
    I think she could have continued without one but perhaps without both was too much of an ask

    What happened to Gregg Wilson? I wish EON had continued on, not every Bond film and not every Bond Actor has to feel some sort of divinity. It's ok to just make a good Bond film with a good actor, and I don't think anybody could have topped Daniel Craig in her mind.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,093
    slide_99 wrote: »
    We've known who Bond is for almost 70 years. He's not some riddle that needs to be solved and there aren't any mysteries to explore with him. It's not that he's one-dimensional, it's that he's a complete character that doesn't have (or need) some type of arc.

    I don't think Craig's Bond was any deeper than any previous Bond. Bond has always been a fully-fleshed, 3-dimensional character with contradictions, flaws, and pathos. Some movies highlighted these traits more than others, but even in the sillier movies like DAD we see what motivates him, what angers him, why he's so dedicated to his job, etc.

    The idea that Bond's psyche needs to be explored strikes me as silly, a waste of time, and a substitution for an actual story. Giving Bond and Blofeld a shared childhood is not giving the story depth, it's a low-effort gimmick that gives the illusion of depth but actually has no bearing on the plot whatsoever and no consequences for either character.

    Bond is quite enigmatic really, there's lots of situations we don't see him in or know how he'd react to. Part of the whole 'cool' persona is that he's slightly unknowable in some senses. Exploring that is no bad thing as the movies are literally about him.
    Also I'm not sure we could say he's always been a three dimensional character: that guy in You Only Live Twice isn't a human, he's a walking quip machine who presses buttons on other machines and that's about it. His depth has varied throughout the movies, and that's not a bad thing, it keeps it interesting.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,113
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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,963
    mtm wrote: »
    Also I'm not sure we could say he's always been a three dimensional character: that guy in You Only Live Twice isn't a human, he's a walking quip machine who presses buttons on other machines and that's about it. His depth has varied throughout the movies, and that's not a bad thing, it keeps it interesting.
    I rather like his uninterested performance in YOLT. It was like Bond nearing the end of his career there in the double-O's. Been there, done that, seen too many women die.... getting a little too numb to the whole game... and the losses.... yeah, I'm reading into it what I choose to. I love the film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,466
    I rarely see Bond as a three-dimensional character because it's almost never about him. He fights the villain, yes, but he hardly shows any character development himself. He's still the same guy at the end of most movies that he was at the start. Even Han and Luke were changed men at the end of Star Wars; Bond rarely changes. The Craigs were the exception, I guess.

    In fact, I think it's cool that Bond isn't a traditional character who learns things and goes through phases of soul-searching. We love him more for what he does than for who he is? Something like that? I'm not sure that's the right way of phrasing things, but I'm tired. ;-)
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 470
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I rarely see Bond as a three-dimensional character because it's almost never about him. He fights the villain, yes, but he hardly shows any character development himself. He's still the same guy at the end of most movies that he was at the start. Even Han and Luke were changed men at the end of Star Wars; Bond rarely changes. The Craigs were the exception, I guess.

    Interesting to consider, is Craig-Bond really any different by the end of NTTD than he was at the end of CR?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,466
    Seve wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I rarely see Bond as a three-dimensional character because it's almost never about him. He fights the villain, yes, but he hardly shows any character development himself. He's still the same guy at the end of most movies that he was at the start. Even Han and Luke were changed men at the end of Star Wars; Bond rarely changes. The Craigs were the exception, I guess.

    Interesting to consider, is Craig-Bond really any different by the end of NTTD than he was at the end of CR?

    Dead as opposed to very much alive? ;-)

    Jokes aside, even the Craig Bond, who "learned his lesson", doesn't change all that much, you're right. But compared to most of the others, I think he at least changes a bit.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,963
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I rarely see Bond as a three-dimensional character because it's almost never about him. He fights the villain, yes, but he hardly shows any character development himself. He's still the same guy at the end of most movies that he was at the start. Even Han and Luke were changed men at the end of Star Wars; Bond rarely changes. The Craigs were the exception, I guess.

    Interesting to consider, is Craig-Bond really any different by the end of NTTD than he was at the end of CR?

    Dead as opposed to very much alive? ;-)

    Jokes aside, even the Craig Bond, who "learned his lesson", doesn't change all that much, you're right. But compared to most of the others, I think he at least changes a bit.
    I'd say Bond changes a bit in LTK going rogue to avenge his friend's torture & his friend's Wife's killing. A direct sequel with Dalton would have been very interesting- how did he get his reinstatement after all that....
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited 3:34pm Posts: 749
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I rarely see Bond as a three-dimensional character because it's almost never about him. He fights the villain, yes, but he hardly shows any character development himself. He's still the same guy at the end of most movies that he was at the start. Even Han and Luke were changed men at the end of Star Wars; Bond rarely changes. The Craigs were the exception, I guess.

    In fact, I think it's cool that Bond isn't a traditional character who learns things and goes through phases of soul-searching. We love him more for what he does than for who he is? Something like that? I'm not sure that's the right way of phrasing things, but I'm tired. ;-)

    A character doesn't need to change to be three-dimensional. Bond has already become who he is when we meet him in CR. He goes through ups and downs over that novel and the novels that follow, he has flaws, drives, and an inner world, he has a particular way of life and a particular way of seeing the world around him. I think that makes him three-dimensional, and it's why he doesn't necessarily need to have a traditional arc.

    In contrast, characters like Jack Reacher, John Wick, and Rey from Star Wars are two-dimensional power fantasies of their creators. That's very different from what Bond is.
  • Posts: 4,628
    slide_99 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I rarely see Bond as a three-dimensional character because it's almost never about him. He fights the villain, yes, but he hardly shows any character development himself. He's still the same guy at the end of most movies that he was at the start. Even Han and Luke were changed men at the end of Star Wars; Bond rarely changes. The Craigs were the exception, I guess.

    In fact, I think it's cool that Bond isn't a traditional character who learns things and goes through phases of soul-searching. We love him more for what he does than for who he is? Something like that? I'm not sure that's the right way of phrasing things, but I'm tired. ;-)

    A character doesn't need to change to be three-dimensional. Bond has already become who he is when we meet him in CR. He goes through ups and downs over that novel and the novels that follow, he has flaws, drives, and an inner world, he has a particular way of life and a particular way of seeing the world around him. I think that makes him three-dimensional, and it's why he doesn't necessarily need to have a traditional arc.

    Bond can overcome obstacles, certainly (both on the job and how that affects him personally). That seems to be what you're trying to get at here anyway. I'd say that's all the Craig films. Bond's core values don't change in essence throughout his tenure. He's just knocked off course by certain things and his circumstances change by the last one, but he ultimately comes back. For me that's great. A character like Bond needs obstacles and challenges in these stories.

    I don't particularly mind scraps of Bond's history coming up either. Maybe not for every film, but it's nice to see a mention of Bond's past in GE and in SF. It informs a bit about the character in tandem with the story, but doesn't hang on to sentimentality nor does Bond himself dwell on it, which is the kind of character he is. I'd say the same about things like Bond having a previous relationship with Paris in TND. It's good storytelling.
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