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I understand what you are saying. I think you are using the score from the rooftop-chase in QoS to illustrate your point.
There are two ways of applying music to a movie, as you probably know. The newest and most common way, is for the composer to construct a score around editors first cut.
But the other way - which I actually prefer - is for many major scenes in the editors cut to be constructed/edited around the composers score. Director Sergio Leone and his composer Ennio Morricone were masters at doing this, and I think we saw the same thing here (6.10-9.00):
I am guessing here, but based on a lot of the Bond-movies which had Barry as composer, it seems like more scenes were deliberately stretched/edited to match the score that Barry composed beforehand. I don't think Arnold in general has ever been given the same treatment, making his job a lot harder, but I could be wrong.
And don't forget that, unlike Arnold, Barry used themes from other movies, as well as Tchaikovsky, Vivaldi, Beach Boys and so forth to "give the scenes atmosphere".
I love the Caviar Factory, TND-Bike Chase, and the Night at the Opera. Those are good stuff!
Exactly! :)
TWINE: Not as good as TND, but it works in the film. As a memorable soundtrack... not so much.
DAD: I only remember the cuban part.. the rest is just like elevator music
CR: Boring..
QoS: Even worse.. I didn't even notice it when I watched the film.
So.. David Arnold can be a great composer, but he has had his chance. There are better qualified composers out there
(Hopefully is Thomas Newman one of them..)
Even worse:
him trying to prove it is his song by singing it! (See the dvd-extra's!)
Some people should be protected against themselves..
Never mind old chum, got that thing called "Olympics" to write a ditty for!? :-B
I don't know if this is the right forum to discuss such things from a professional point of view (classical musician) but here is my few cents:
The usage of minor key in a James Bond Films functions at its best if result sound glamorous. This is not given and is only to be achieved trough a right attitude, education and training in composing because that's difficult to achieve. John Barry was a master of that art and his Bond - songs and scores when in minor, sound glamorous , not sad.
Now, sad is the easiest approach to a minor key. It's a childlike approach: major: happy , minor: sad. And there it stops, for most pop-musicians incl. Sheryl Craw and Adelle.
The last glamurous Bond - Song in minor key was Goldeneye, probably by accident. Since 1996 I'm waiting for another glamorous sounding Bond - song. The first ingredient would be to finally use the Bond- Chord: a big minor nonachord which is a glamorous Bond - Chord instead of a simple minor quintachord and to build from there. Also, one does not have to imitate John Barry but to apply his courage to create very untypical, almost unorganic way of a melody - concept and making it sound completely natural, as well in scores (like "This sniper was a woman"). This is difficult, even for a trained composer, but maybe John Powell could manage... he is really gifted and skilled.
Also, a tune in score or a song doesn't always have to start with a tonika-chord in the ground key, like it always does with Arnold. This is so simple and almost stupid. John Barry always tried to start a tune differently. Out of Africa begins on a subdominante, for example. Even Arnold's most beloved YOLT'S "Capsule in Space" begins on a dominante. Funny how Arnold never thought about that technique, because it opens enormous possibilities.
OHMSS theme intro begins with 4 (!) punchy big minor nonachords in a row, 2 of them put in another constellations to camouflage them so there could be some melody on top of it, connecting all. "I wanted people to be sure, they are watching a Bond - movie" said Barry. It was neccessary due to a new actor playing the part. No way David Arnold would do such stuff.
The fortissimo trumpets with Barry sounded punchy (not too fast). With Arnold they often sound hysterical (too fast), so the impact is opposite of what Bond is. It sounds like a very scared woman panicking instead a stable man always in control.
Also, the music business is the only business where not competent person can be successful and earn a lots of money because "somebody will like it anyway". This makes one really sad. If you look closer, it actually needs skills equal to a good doctor, banker lawyer or an architect and much longer education then they have.
It's a plain luck that John Barry did Bond films anyway. It could have been much less attractive, deep, imaginative, refined or groundbreaking with someone else. I don't even like to think about that.
A Bond score should not be sadness combined with mostly mediants (very easy to fill up time and used by all classically untrained composers). It should be an imaginative work of art. I hope Newman will do it better, he proved to be extremely sensitive composer.
With Adele's song we got a beautiful but again sad song.
This is my first and now extended post in this forum, greets to you all.
I don't think Arnold is anywhere close to Barry, but as time goes by I have softened towards him. His CR work was pretty good I thought. YKMN was one of the better post-Barry songs and his Surrender was also half decent.
I actually have a sneaking suspicion that after we hear Newman's score for SF, that we are going to hear a lot of people calling for Arnold's return. Just a suspicion.
I am a fan of Thomas Newman's work, he is an extremely talented composer however that doesn't mean he'll do a better job than Arnold. I hope he does! However we will only find out when we hear the finished soundtrack.
Taking composition lessons doesn't make a composer, it provides more tools but doesn't increase the amount of talent one was born with.
P.S.: I find your use of caps a little annoying ;) If you want to put emphasys you can for example use bold or underline.
Overall, I find your post very interesting. My musical education doesn´t reach to the degree that I could judge all of your comments correctly, but as far as it goes, I find your criticism quite constructive.
And, for a post of that length, it´s remarkably smooth to read ;-). I don´t find that too often. No it doesn´t. But then again, James Bond doesn´t have to be either one of them. Like a Cockney worker talking his talk, Arnold sounds really good when he doesn´t try to be something he´s not. The problem is not so much Arnold being not classically trained, but Arnold sometimes or more often stepping out of his comfort zone. Laziness might come into it too here and there, especially his video game scores suggest the latter notion.
It would be interesting to see what other composers would do with Bond. I´m not sure if we live in a time where there are composers equal to Barry, Goldsmith, or Williams. Your suggestion of Powell made me cringe a bit, because, as much as I agree he knows his music theory, I find the resulting music less interesting than Arnold´s.
But maybe it would be a good idea to change the composer with every film for a while? One could always keep a composer if he was really good.
IMO it´s obvious that Arnold has the talent, but lacks the tools to express it all properly. With the right education he could be the man of the future, I have no doubt. And from what I heard about his past, he never had the money or opportunity for a proper study. Carpe diem, David!
But personally I agree I would love Powell for a Bond score, it'd be interesting to see what he would do and it's high time he got a job for a more mature audience (rather than keep scoring animation or comedies). But anyway, my love for Powell will be saved for a different thread, otherwise we may get a bit distracted from the fact this is a discussion on Arnold's music, not who should replace him!
It's true that music is often the least and last consideration for producers, but you make it sound like David Arnold is guilty of banging a few saucepans together and calling it a day.
I get it - you don't like his scores. I do. And I don't care whether or not he has 'classical' training or whether his music meets the approval of pretentious music theorists who never put their notes where their mouth is. It's enough for me that he's produced exciting action themes, beautiful love themes, feisty Bond songs (where he was allowed to) and generally cool and appropriate scores.
"Not all pop music is devoid of quality or complexity and not all classical music is brilliant."
I didn't say that. I'm very aware of that fact, I grew up with high quality english pop/rock music as well and I like it for completely different reasons then classical music which is the highest organised form of music on the planet ever. I don't know what kind of musical education you have but a serious classical composition of any time in history had a lot to do with skill, architecture and knowledge. That is the only reason why great composers are not so many through human history. By the way, composers that everybody else learned from are mostly from a german-speaking parts of europe.
You can hear a lot of Anton Bruckner in John Barry if you compare the way how melodies and harmonies start and develope. Barry studied it and he new. But that things need a lot of time in youth because they are very complex.
"Taking composition lessons doesn't make a composer, it provides more tools but doesn't increase the amount of talent one was born with."
I would rather not like to react on this, it exceeds this topic. Being musician of any kind means a 90% of hard work (always learning and improving) with 10% of talent. That's what most professional musicians say, me included. Yes, David Arnold works hard as well, sometimes some results come out of it (QOS score was an improvement) but he rides Golf Volkswagen in Formula 1 race and he knows it himself probably as well. But he was suggested to Broccolis by John Barry, for making covers of Barry's songs. Only an ignorant person would have not taken that chance. I suppose that the old man was mellowed because someone finally re-arranged something good and new with his songs, he didn't questioned Arnold's knowledge about composing. Weird.
You have to know about harmonics before you start composing, their connections, solutions and tricks how to modulate from there to there. This is not generalising. If one wants to do something proper, one goes to someone to learn it proper. In every day life.
That means I would not go to a most expensive dentist only to get my teeth brushed with a newest toothpaste.
If someone does music for such a gigantic successful franchise, he should better be very skilled (and talented as well) in every aspect for that kind of job.
i think too much undue criticism is given to Arnold, and I hope he does return to Bond, with either Bond 24 or Bond 25... i think with Arnold's soundtracks, too many 'filler cues' are added to the score's soundtrack that aren't really needed... if they were to trim the fat on the albums, and give us just the essentials, the soundtracks would sound a lot tighter.... Arnold's scores work within the movie - not so much for casual listening - except for a few tracks here and there..
that is the one exception i have lol - i also love TLD score... but between TMWTGG, MR, OP, AVTAK and TLD .. only 2 scores are really worthy of standing next to his older work, and that is MR and TLD.. and would say MR more so than TLD..... and im not even saying his work was terrible on OP and AVTAK - its great in the movie, but when i listen to those scores - all it really seems to be is the same 2 songs over and over..lol
This isn't so.
Anyone who can use an instrument, a sequencer or whatever can compose. Some people might not rate that composition, but that's a different matter. There's nothing wrong about being a self-taught composer.
By your logic, Heston Blumenthal wouldn't be in the running for world's best chef.
And I'm sure the Bond producers didn't blithely sign up David Arnold on the strength of Shaken and Stirred and a nod from John Barry alone. There's the small matter of a proven track record in producing successful blockbuster scores. Remember Stargate and Independence Day?
<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v323/djx187/?action=view¤t=crumpetcricket.jpg"; target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/djx187/crumpetcricket.jpg"; border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
And yes, of course, everybody can do everything anyway :-)
The trio of ID4, Godzilla, and Tomorrow Never Dies are still the cream of the crop when I think of Arnold.
"Anyone who can use an instrument, a sequencer or whatever can compose. Some people might not rate that composition, but that's a different matter. There's nothing wrong about being a self-taught composer.
By your logic, Heston Blumenthal wouldn't be in the running for world's best chef.
And I'm sure the Bond producers didn't blithely sign up David Arnold on the strength of Shaken and Stirred and a nod from John Barry alone. There's the small matter of a proven track record in producing successful blockbuster scores. Remember Stargate and Independence Day? "
[/quote]
Oh, this is getting really nice. Wait a moment, my cat seems not to feel well, here's the knife, let me cut her belly to see inside, everybody who has a knife can do it anyway, yeah!
Mr. Blumenthal learned a lots of stuff from other chefs and is probably learning how to improve some recipe right now because he is obviously not
an ignorant.
Anyway, if we reduce this argument to the "matter of taste" then it really doesn't matter what I hear or think.
If we argue about "matter of taste" vs. "matter of skills" it all looks rather different.
I'm sure we are all a giant Bond - Fans and want the best for the franchise even if EON may not care what we write here. Or do they? :-)
Answering your question about me, I had formal classical piano lessons from the age of 7 until I was 18. At that time I had to choose between engaging in the national conservatoire (higher degree) or following an academic career in science. I chose science and continued playing for the simple pleasure of it, I don't regret it as I'm a much better scientist that I would ever be a musician. I'm curious, why did you talk about german composers, are you german? Or you think I'm german? Or was it just a random comment?
That was a very nice background information you gave about you! The eastern european schools are usually excellent (and I'm a bit partial to eastern composer). I agree completely that harmony is mathematics, but music itself is physics and what we feel while listening to it is nothing but physiology.
Now back on topic!
This is a forum populated largely by Bond-obsessed teens. I don't think debate here can be anything other than about taste.
If you're looking to flex your musical credentials and float a debate based on a learnt philosophy of music that isn't shared by anyone here, then I think you're on a hiding to nothing posting in this place. Unless you're hoping to be the big fish in a small pond of course - it might work.
You're coming across (to me at least) as a bit snobbish. A bit holier-than-thou. A bit of a zealot. And unrealistically obsessed with getting a Bond movie soundtrack composer worthy of ticking the boxes that you've learnt can be ticked .
David Arnold is not half bad at the job. Your scathing summation of his work is mean to say the least. You can dress up your criticisms with all the musical jargon you like and hope to seem erudite and reasoned, but all I'm hearing from you is 'I don't like David Arnold's scores.'
If you want to persuade me that your arguments have merit you need to engage on my (our) level. I invite you to try again without the CV and the jargon.
music is art, and art is subjective.... you or anyone can list 10,000 different ways that said music sucks - but it all still comes back to personal preference and opinion...