Bond/Vesper 2006 relationship - was it convincing?

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  • Posts: 7,653
    Why all this uncertainty when we are talking chemistry between Craig & Green, why does Brosnans name pop every time in this discussion. It reads more that folks need to convince themselves that Craig whatever happens must be better. Brosnan should not be part of this discussion. Unless you want him to play 007 with Green?

    I find this kind of discussion very immature and it shows that folks still want to talk about Brosnan, which means he must have had a bigger impression than any really wants to admit. :-)) O:-) ;)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    SaintMark wrote:
    Why all this uncertainty when we are talking chemistry between Craig & Green, why does Brosnans name pop every time in this discussion. It reads more that folks need to convince themselves that Craig whatever happens must be better. Brosnan should not be part of this discussion. Unless you want him to play 007 with Green?

    I find this kind of discussion very immature and it shows that folks still want to talk about Brosnan, which means he must have had a bigger impression than any really wants to admit. :-)) O:-) ;)

    What can I say, garbage stinks no matter how much you spray it with air freshener and wherever you put it.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Now that IS rather immature.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 1,310
    I may get some slack for this, but I've always found the Bond/Tracy relationship a tad overrated. I've always felt that the Bond/Kara relationship in TLD is the series' best. I don't know, the whole "love montage" followed by George shagging every girl at Piz Gloria followed by Bond proposing to Tracy 20 minutes later is kind of odd to me. Not to say their relationship was poorly developed, but I think it gets a little more credit than it deserved. That all being said: the final scene of the film is extremely powerful.

    Now, as far as the Bond/Vesper relationship goes: I think it was very convincing. And I must say, the shot of Craig's furious breathing turning into a saddening stare is about as convincing as it gets.
  • I really didn't like when Dalton and Milovy went to the Prater fair in Vienna, and went on the rides and ferris wheel, 'we could be here all night etc, do you want another ride etc', No I just never liked those scenes really. The two did seem plausible together for the most part though, I liked the bit when they first get introduced and Dalton explains why he's there (I dropped the gun in the river, KGB made quite a mess etc)

    I have no problem with the Lazenby/Rigg relationship from '69, seems a little constricted at times but by the end you realize that they can make it as a wedded couple. Craig and Lynd, as said before worked quite well, pity she had to die, but we got the revenge factor for QOS, something that didn't quite appear with Connery in Diamonds after the end of OHMSS. Different Bond actors in '69 and '71 but the revenge element for the slaying of a loved one just never materialized. Said that before
  • 002002
    Posts: 581
    actonsteve wrote:
    No, I don't think it was convincing, there was no chemistry there whatsoever. And the dialogue? :-& Easily one of the worst pairings in the cannon.

    No chemistry? Really? On the beach scene they burn the screen up and what about the drags her in from the rain for a snog?

    If you really want zero chemistry look at Brosnan and Yeoh, Brosnan and Richards and Brosnan and Berry...


    I agree with you on Brosnan, just my opinion Brosnan fans, but Brosnan never had any chemistry with any of his leading or supporting ladies. And so far, i'd say the same for Craig.

    What about Brosnan and Isobella Scrupo in Goldeneye that was a good chemestary
  • Posts: 11,189
    Agreed @002. I liked the "yes...basic rule...always call their bluff" line. That was a rather sweet scene which I think a lot of people forget.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited February 2012 Posts: 4,399
    i for one don't think Brosnan had bad chemistry with all his leading ladies - but it's fair to say it's about 50/50 ... he had good chemistry i thought with Isabella, Michelle Yeoh (although it wasn't romantic chemistry) and also Sophie, and i thought his chemistry with Moneypenny was good as well... Brozzer had his moments - i wont deny that...

    on the topic at hand... i felt the sudden switch from annoyed to loving from Vesper was a bit much - but this goes along with the feeling that I don't think she truly loved loved Bond- it was an act to get the money and the passcode... i believe she did love him to a degree, and that she was emotionally conflicted, and felt bad for what she had done in setting him up (even at the end).. but her heart belonged to Yusef..... but i bought into the relationship - it felt real, not forced.
  • Posts: 7,653
    SaintMark wrote:
    Why all this uncertainty when we are talking chemistry between Craig & Green, why does Brosnans name pop every time in this discussion. It reads more that folks need to convince themselves that Craig whatever happens must be better. Brosnan should not be part of this discussion. Unless you want him to play 007 with Green?

    I find this kind of discussion very immature and it shows that folks still want to talk about Brosnan, which means he must have had a bigger impression than any really wants to admit. :-)) O:-) ;)

    What can I say, garbage stinks no matter how much you spray it with air freshener and wherever you put it.

    My point being that was does Brosnan have to do with the chemistry between Craig & Green. Nothing whatsoever and any comparison is a moot argument as he, Brosnan, still has NO part whatsoever in the lacking chemistry between Green & Craig.
    I do not blame them, they lacked a certain ingredient, namely some decent scripting. Somehow it is easier to write action than convincing dialogue.

  • edited February 2012 Posts: 12,837
    SaintMark wrote:
    Why all this uncertainty when we are talking chemistry between Craig & Green, why does Brosnans name pop every time in this discussion. It reads more that folks need to convince themselves that Craig whatever happens must be better. Brosnan should not be part of this discussion. Unless you want him to play 007 with Green?

    I find this kind of discussion very immature and it shows that folks still want to talk about Brosnan, which means he must have had a bigger impression than any really wants to admit. :-)) O:-) ;)

    Exactly. Its like I said on the 1st page, some of us liked brosnan and don't want people pointlessly bashing him on every thread. Its stupid really, somebody critiscises craig and evas relationship and said they have no chemistry, craig fans response "brosnan was worse". Its pathetic.
  • Daniel Craig & Eva Green are great actors. They had great chemistry between one another. You can fell that it was real & not forced on us. And they cared for one another as well. Just like it was in Ian Fleming's novel. I really felt for Bond when Vesper died at the end of the shootout. Even though Vesper did betray Bond, you can fell his emotions. Bond deeply cared about. Again, even though she betrayed him.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    Love the Craig/Green chemistry. Also love the Brosnan/Marceau chemistry; Brosnan and Moore seemed to do better with more mature women (I'd put Scorupco in this category as well).
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 1,497
    Samuel001 wrote:
    I thought it was very rushed. I would have cut out some of the action to spend more time on building their relationship. It doesn't help some of the dialogue is horrid either.

    Exactly my thoughts as well. It seemed rather sudden that he is completely dis-armed by Vesper while recovering in Lake Como. I think part of the problem is the torture scene was treated poorly as well. Where as the book elaborates more clearly on the transformation Bond has undergone as a result of the torture, the movie makes for a wise-cracking, sadomasichist moment, that shows nothing of Bond's pain and being broken down. Quite the contrary actually, Bond seems to enjoy the torture in the movie. But yet, while recovering, he goes into this trite monologue of how he is stripped of his armour; all that's left of him is hers...how has he possibly changed? The torture seem didn't give the impression that he was a changed man, but we are supposed to believe he has, and he then goes against character and gives his heart and soul to this woman? I didn't buy it.
  • echo wrote:
    Love the Craig/Green chemistry. Also love the Brosnan/Marceau chemistry; Brosnan and Moore seemed to do better with more mature women (I'd put Scorupco in this category as well).

    Do you mean in age - Scorupco was about 25 when Goldeneye was released.

  • Germanlady wrote:
    If you just go by the amount of fanvids on YT about them, people loved the pair.
    The development of their relation was done rather nicely IMO, from quarells to love...also, I thought, that Vesper came over as being really smart, which wasnt always the case, when they seemed just eye candy, who were given some clever lines to make it less obvious. Vesper was believable, which again made it believable, that a man like Bond could fall in love with her. What I liked about her was, that she was smart and independant, but in a womanly way. She still got scared by violence, she wasn't the great fighter, she had enough about her for a man to be a man and not finding his equal in a womans body. So yes, I think, it worked fine.

    They even made those cringe worthy little finger lines work somehow - due to their great acting.

    I heartedly agree with much of this.
    The real strength of the Vesper character was that she was very smart, and in that regard really gave Bond a run for his money. Their dialogue early on is witty and zingy and Vesper plays Bond at his own game a number of times in the early part of her appearance. He buys her a dress to wear so she tells him his tuxedo isn't up to snuff and gets him another and later she defies him and wears another dress to the casino game (Daniel's eyes are terrific in this scene; the way they track her as she enters the room). The real strength of the character was her vulnerability as the violence of the entire film really affects her, in this regard Vesper is very real. She's just a burecraeut who got caught up in Bond's dirty world after all.

    As for the chemistry between Craig and Green. I think it was most definitely there, the train scene sizzles between the pair and is by far the best scene of the movie.

    I have to agree that the 'little finger' line does make my eyes-roll and I can see why it may seem forced. But Craig saves it with his "Whatever is left of me" moment; that I always find strikes a cord as its Bond finally letting his armour down after 21 films and showing someone whatever there is left of him. Maybe nothing needed saying as their relationship seemed relatively cemented at that point, but I feel that Campbell et al probably felt that a 'moment' was required to show that they had really fallen for each other; it's undeniable that a more subtle method would have worked better but the scene hardly detracts from the entire movie and most definitely dosen't sink the ship.
  • @JBFan626 That bugged me a bit too last time I watched it. Bond doesn't treat her differently than any other Bond girl, but then she helps him kill somebody and he comforts her over it, then gets tortured and makes a joke about Le Chiffre scratching his balls, and suddenly he's in love and wants to spend the rest of his life with her. Then they have sex and she dies.

    I thought it came a bit out of nowhere. Although I prefer the film to the book, the book had the advantage of being able to sell you on it more. The film has to show us everything the book described Bond feeling, and I don't think they had enough time for that thanks to the first half. Maybe they should've cut down a bit on the 1st half which isn't like the book at all and doesn't even feature Vesper.

    They had chemistry but after rewatching the film a few times over the last year I've disliked the Bond/Vesper relationship more and more.

    It did seem a bit rushed and some of the dialouge is just terrible.
  • Posts: 421
    I agree with some of those saying that it could have been developed more. I would have loved to seen more of them in Venice.

    I was re-reading CR the other week and reflected on just how brilliantly written the third part of the novel is. The arguments, the raw emotion, the distance between her and Bond, the secrecy, the bitterness, the sex, the tears, and how the death scene was even more potent and tragic given Bond's plan to marry her.

    There's a split second in the film when he says "See you back here in half an hour", Vesper pauses, kisses him, and walks off. It captures the above brilliantly, I just wish it was longer. If they had developed the phone "text snooping" further, it would have made it perfect.

    Anyone see what I mean?
  • To me, the Bond/Vesper relationship was extremely convincing, not just because I loved Vesper in general, but because Daniel and Eva really hit it off, even off set, and they just had great chemistry together. I can't even watch to the end of Casino Royale anymore because I became so attached to Vesper, and its just so heart wrenching to watch her die, and to see James' emotion for the first time.

    Daniel and Eva even said that they're quite fond of each other. Eva's called Daniel extremely sexy on multiple occasions, and Daniel continuously says Eva is just an amazing actress. I know Eva also said it was heartbreaking for her to not have any scenes with Daniel in The Golden Compass.

    Overall, I just can't get enough of Bond/Vesper <3
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    echo wrote:
    Love the Craig/Green chemistry. Also love the Brosnan/Marceau chemistry; Brosnan and Moore seemed to do better with more mature women (I'd put Scorupco in this category as well).

    Do you mean in age - Scorupco was about 25 when Goldeneye was released.

    No. She just seems more mature and worldly than say, Richards or Berry.
  • Craig and Green had great chemistry and the only dissenters, go figure, don't like this era. So what else is new?

  • DC played it like real bloke. One look at her broadchest and that was it. He just did hat he did to motorboat her.

    Top bloke that bond fellow.

    I thought she was an excellent foil for Bond and I totally saw the chemistry up on screen.
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 2,081
    Just finished watching CR, actually, so...

    I always thought the relationship was great and believable, and the actors had great chemistry. I'm surprised that some people think Bond just all of a sudden fell for her while recovering - I thought she got his full attention immediately when they first met on the train and it just grew from there. I also never got the impression that she "loathed" him to begin with.
    JR_747 wrote:
    I never found it convincing that Vesper strated to cry all from a sudden - and then that line!

    I assume she actually cared about the guy, and understood that he was in love with her and completely vulnerable, and yet she also knew she was betraying him and that trust. (And also knew she didn't have a choice, anyway, since if she hadn't agreed to the betrayal, he'd have been killed.) I assume all that would have overwhelmed any normal person, so I don't think it was surprising at all that she had a hard time keeping her emotions in check, and the line wasn't ridiculous to me in the circumstances.
    SJK91 wrote:
    And I must say, the shot of Craig's furious breathing turning into a saddening stare is about as convincing as it gets.

    Yes.
    JBFan626 wrote:
    I think part of the problem is the torture scene was treated poorly as well. Where as the book elaborates more clearly on the transformation Bond has undergone as a result of the torture, the movie makes for a wise-cracking, sadomasichist moment, that shows nothing of Bond's pain and being broken down. Quite the contrary actually, Bond seems to enjoy the torture in the movie.

    Shows nothing of his pain? He seems to enjoy it? The only explanation I can think of is we've seen a different movie.

    I have to agree that the 'little finger' line does make my eyes-roll and I can see why it may seem forced. But Craig saves it with his "Whatever is left of me" moment; that I always find strikes a cord as its Bond finally letting his armour down after 21 films and showing someone whatever there is left of him. Maybe nothing needed saying as their relationship seemed relatively cemented at that point, but I feel that Campbell et al probably felt that a 'moment' was required to show that they had really fallen for each other; it's undeniable that a more subtle method would have worked better but the scene hardly detracts from the entire movie and most definitely dosen't sink the ship.

    Though, of course, despite those 20 movies before it, the Bond in CR is a new 00 agent, just recently promoted to the 00 status, and hasn't had that much soul destroying work behind him, yet. What was left of him at that point was a lot more than at any point thereafter.

    Also, at that point in his life and career it might indeed have been possible for him to say and do what many find not convincing because "he'd never do that". Maybe not later, but then he might have.

  • Germanlady wrote:
    If you just go by the amount of fanvids on YT about them, people loved the pair.
    The development of their relation was done rather nicely IMO, from quarells to love...also, I thought, that Vesper came over as being really smart, which wasnt always the case, when they seemed just eye candy, who were given some clever lines to make it less obvious. Vesper was believable, which again made it believable, that a man like Bond could fall in love with her. What I liked about her was, that she was smart and independant, but in a womanly way. She still got scared by violence, she wasn't the great fighter, she had enough about her for a man to be a man and not finding his equal in a womans body. So yes, I think, it worked fine.

    They even made those cringe worthy little finger lines work somehow - due to their great acting.

    I heartedly agree with much of this.
    The real strength of the Vesper character was that she was very smart, and in that regard really gave Bond a run for his money. Their dialogue early on is witty and zingy and Vesper plays Bond at his own game a number of times in the early part of her appearance. He buys her a dress to wear so she tells him his tuxedo isn't up to snuff and gets him another and later she defies him and wears another dress to the casino game (Daniel's eyes are terrific in this scene; the way they track her as she enters the room). The real strength of the character was her vulnerability as the violence of the entire film really affects her, in this regard Vesper is very real. She's just a burecraeut who got caught up in Bond's dirty world after all.

    As for the chemistry between Craig and Green. I think it was most definitely there, the train scene sizzles between the pair and is by far the best scene of the movie.

    I have to agree that the 'little finger' line does make my eyes-roll and I can see why it may seem forced. But Craig saves it with his "Whatever is left of me" moment; that I always find strikes a cord as its Bond finally letting his armour down after 21 films and showing someone whatever there is left of him. Maybe nothing needed saying as their relationship seemed relatively cemented at that point, but I feel that Campbell et al probably felt that a 'moment' was required to show that they had really fallen for each other; it's undeniable that a more subtle method would have worked better but the scene hardly detracts from the entire movie and most definitely dosen't sink the ship.

    Well said, and I think that Eva Green's / Vesper's confidence is as big an issue as her being smart. As other's have said, she was a good match for Bond.
  • Posts: 1,052
    Didn't think it was paticularly convincing, most of the dialouge was poor and didn't really care when she died, although that may have something to do with the terrible falling building scene in Venice. Having finished reading the book recently, I would say it was a poor adaptation but a not bad film.
  • Posts: 1,492
    [quote="BAIN123. I don't know if we got to 'know' Vesper in the way we did with Tracy. . [/quote]

    The key to Vesper is she is an enigma. She is a riddle. But due to Greens very strong acting you can see that despite herself she is falling for him. She fights against it for a long while but the look of love she gives him when he is recovering from having his bollocks beating is gorgeous.

    It truly is a very romantic film.

    As for those who didnt feel anything when she died. Well, it gets me every time. The look of anguish when Bond is cradling her soaked body is heartrending.

  • edited January 2013 Posts: 11,189
    She still looks beautiful even when she's dead from drowning - like she's sleeping.

    I do love the scene between the two early on in the car. She's slightly smug playing hard to get and he's lapping it up.
  • edited January 2013 Posts: 12,837
    I thin Tracy's death was sadder.

    With CR, it was all big and dramatic and although it was still emotional, I saw it coming. In OHMSS, it's much more low key but it sort of comes out of nowhere and I think the shock helps to make it more emotional.

    Blofeld drives up, Brunt sprays the car with bullets, Bond gets in ready to go after him then he slowly turns, you start to think the worst and sure enough, she's dead. I think the silence there really helps, then the cop pulls up, Bond explains she's having a rest and starts crying as the score finally kicks in.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I agree. Vespers death was sad but tracy's was sadder.
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    I agree. Vespers death was sad but tracy's was sadder.

    And M's was tragically comical.
  • Posts: 161
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I agree. Vespers death was sad but tracy's was sadder.

    Vesper death meant more cause when you have a top actor in Craig shown all the emotion of a man's heart been broken makes all the difference. Sadly Rigg didn't have a top actor opposite her although the scene does pack a punch cause Rigg made her a loveable character.
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