Bond vs. Grant in Movie History

edited January 2013 in Bond Movies Posts: 15
Bond's fight with Grant has long been acknowledged by Bondfans as being perhaps the greatest hand to hand punchup in Bond history.

I would go even futher. I believe it is one finest examples of mayhem ever commited to celluloid. And 50 years later it is still the fight I judge all others against.

And more: what Terence Young and Peter Hunt (not to mention two gentlemen by the name of Connery and Shaw) achieved in this scene is astonishing for 1963.

I'm talking movie history, fellow Bondfans, because I will go out on a limb and proclaim that Bond vs. Grant is a turning point in action cinema that has never gotten its proper due by the critical establishment.

John Cork in The Legacy makes the point that FRWL is the first proper action film ever made. On this I agree 100%.

IMO, there had NEVER been a better fight in cinema history before the scuffle on the Orient Express. On this point, I stand firm and will accept all challenges to this belief. If there is a better fight before 1963 I would be delighted to be hear of it.

As a lifelong movie buff and action junkie, I have looked far and wide for anything before FRWL that can challenge its supremacy in terms of action. So far...Bond Vs. Grant is the first heavyweight champ of the modern era.

To be sure, there have been cracking good fights in Fritz Lang's Cloak and Dagger (1946) and Richard Fleischer's The Narrow Margin(1952), to name a few, but NOTHING matches the ferocity and cinematic brilliance of Bond/Grant.

The fight was a quantum leap forward for 1963 and I believe its time for Bondfans to embrace the fight's place in the history of the medium. So far, there is respect and admiration, but never a proper acknowledgment of its true importance in the annals of action cinema.


"You won't be needing this...old man."
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Comments

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Agree entirely.

    I'm not sure it's been beaten since either. Certainly still the best fight in Bond history and I can't think of a film that has bettered it off the top of my head.

    Some will say Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan but I find their fights rather over choreographed which although the FRWL fight is, it doesn't seem so.

  • AgentJamesBond007AgentJamesBond007 Vesper’s grave
    Posts: 2,632
    Not News. It's a great fight and may very well be the G.O.A.T
  • G.O.A.T ? What's that ? I'm not all up on abbreviations and wish people would cut it out even

    Yes it's a classic sequence of the Bond series, and one of the most famous incidents in the whole of From Russia With Love, possibly the entire franchise, but if I look back now, maybe it doesn't last as long as it should, and I actually enjoy the talking between Connery and Shaw beforehand, rather than the subsequent battle between them

    I'd even go as far to say the Trevelyan / Brosnan battle from Goldeneye could rival it, or was at least, better entertainment, but that's just how I feel about it right now

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Baltimore_007:

    G.O.A.T= Greatest of All Time

    While the fight is dazzling, I wouldn't go so far as to say it is the best EVER. But I would expect it on any list of best hand to hand fights, closer to the front than back.
  • I don't know why people can't say that - 'Greatest of all time'. See, it's not difficult, better than awkward and confusing abbreviations

    It's a good fight for sure, but as stated, a little too short, and a bit of an anti climax after that great discussion between Bond and Grant that came before it

    I even remember the Bambi / Thumper battle with Connery better than I do what happened in 1963, and I can't quite explain that feeling. I think it was just absurd seeing Bond getting beaten up like that and something the viewer of the time, wouldn't have maybe expected. But as for the other, Yes it's an impressive battle, but as mentioned, not the best ever of the James Bond franchise
  • OligarchOligarch Banned
    Posts: 110
    A gritty, amazing scene showing the dangerous side of Bond's field of work. The next best hand-to-hand scene in the series IMO goes to the beginning bathroom scene of CR involving Bond earning his first kill, a legendary bond scene indeed.
  • Too bad they cut out the cricket game in Lahore for that for a theater release, as it would of made the opening so much better, not to mention longer. As it is, what we got to see, was all over a little too quickly

    Still don't like the idea of re-boot Bond with regards to (all) that
  • OligarchOligarch Banned
    edited January 2013 Posts: 110
    I kind of have mixed feelings with the deleted cricket scenes, part of me enjoyed them, especially the greenery , vivid grass and outside scenery , a very well shot environment that brought a different kind of atmosphere to a Bond film. But I think EON felt that the cricket scene slowed down the PTS because IMO, EON wanted to get straight to the point that this Bond was new, fresh , gritty and not a Pierce Brosnan type Bond, and they wanted that to shine almost immediately, and that is why I think they decided to throw away the cricket scene which I am glad they did if I had to choose sides.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    The Bond/Grant fight is great but fights in other action film's have topped it since and also I think some other fights within the series have topped it or come very close to doing so. I think it's definitely not so much how the fight itself plays out that makes it so memorable but rather that the fight was a fatal culmination of a feature length cat and mouse game, so expertly executed, showcasing a real sense if danger, subterfuge and paranoia.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117

    I even remember the Bambi / Thumper battle with Connery better than I do what happened in 1963, and I can't quite explain that feeling. I think it was just absurd seeing Bond getting beaten up like that and something the viewer of the time, wouldn't have maybe expected. But as for the other, Yes it's an impressive battle, but as mentioned, not the best ever of the James Bond franchise

    Oh dear.

    That comment will come back to haunt you. Not even the best fight in DAF.

    You've embarrassed yourself there sir. Can only assume you we're drunk as you wrote it. Perhaps that would explain why you couldn't unlock the Enigma-esque secrets of a pretty straightforward acronym?
  • I agree that the cricket scenes would have slowed CR down.

    One of the things that I love about TCM, and PBS' Saturday Night at the Movies before that, was the introduction to some "obscure" films. I used to have the idea that films just got better and better over time when I was younger, but I'm always amazed at just how innovative some of the films were from previous generations. But it's incredible what "falls through the cracks" of pop culture memory, perhaps because of prints being lost or a cast that never had any known stars in it.

    I'm sure that a film historian would be able to list, say, three films off the top of his head that had better fight scenes than FRWL in the 1950s but they'd likely be films that we'd never heard of. I do know that there was one film I saw from the 1950s, and one from the 1930s, that had shockingly great actions scenes. This was in my film buff phase 20 years ago; I wouldn't be able to recall what they were now. But I remember that the one from the 1930s used very quick cuts, big closeups of the actors eyes, and harsh sounds to achieve a brutal effect.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    It one of the best Bond fights, but it pipped to the #1 spot by TLD's Bond v Necros fight. The latter has the added danger of being in the back of the plane, then outside it.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    It one of the best Bond fights, but it pipped to the #1 spot by TLD's Bond v Necros fight. The latter has the added danger of being in the back of the plane, then outside it.

    The Bond/Necros fight is great, purely as an exhibitionist stunt but it lacks the factors that i mentioned in my above post that makes the Bond/Grant fight so iconic. Hell, @TheWizardOfIce blasted @Baltimore for failing to acknowledge what I can only presume to be the fabtastic Bond vs Franks lift (I'm English, I don't use the word, elevator) fight, which I find to also be better than Bond vs Necros.
  • Posts: 315
    I would vote for it being one of the best and iconic movie fights of all time. Moving train, closet-type quarters and using hands, feet and weight distribution/leverage. Plus, it's done in shadows, making it more black/white than color. The fight on the stairs in CR is also good.

    On a broader scale, Errol Flynn's 'Adventures of Robin Hood' and 'The Sea Hawk' from the 1930's have marvelous fight scenes. Wise film buffs will notice similar techniques of using a chair in 'Robin Hood' and the sword fight in DAD.

    Another one of my favorite movies-the 1950's 'Shane' with Alan Ladd-has a couple good fight scenes.
  • Posts: 97
    Bond vs Grant is certainly up there, but I'd have to agree with FLeiter that the climactic swordfight between Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone in 'The Adventures of Robin Hood' is right up there with it.

    However, back to fist-fights; my personal favourite would be that been Indiana Jones and the bald mechanic (Pat Roach) around the Flying Wing in 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'.
  • I agree that the cricket scenes would have slowed CR down.

    One of the things that I love about TCM, and PBS' Saturday Night at the Movies before that, was the introduction to some "obscure" films. I used to have the idea that films just got better and better over time when I was younger, but I'm always amazed at just how innovative some of the films were from previous generations. But it's incredible what "falls through the cracks" of pop culture memory, perhaps because of prints being lost or a cast that never had any known stars in it.

    I'm sure that a film historian would be able to list, say, three films off the top of his head that had better fight scenes than FRWL in the 1950s but they'd likely be films that we'd never heard of. I do know that there was one film I saw from the 1950s, and one from the 1930s, that had shockingly great actions scenes. This was in my film buff phase 20 years ago; I wouldn't be able to recall what they were now. But I remember that the one from the 1930s used very quick cuts, big closeups of the actors eyes, and harsh sounds to achieve a brutal effect.

    Good point, lordflasheart.

    There have been terrific action sequences before 1963.
    Some have pointed out the swordfights in the Errol Flynn swashbucklers. I would go so far as to say that The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) is pound for pound the most exciting film from the 30's that I have ever seen.

    There are great action scenes in Gunga Din (1939) Stagecoach (1939) and The Crimson Pirate (1952) to name a few.

    Anyone curious on how Cary Grant would handle himself as 007 should check out the cracking good fight in Charade (1963).

    And lets not forget the legendary chariot race in Ben-Hur (1959). Still a jawdropping scene of action.

    BUT...I maintain that there is no hand-to-hand fight in cinema history BEFORE Bond/Grant that is as good.

    As I said, if there is one I would like to know.

    Some members have pointed out some Bond fights since then that might be better. Fair enough. And great fights in other movies since 1963? Well, the list is endless.

    However, Bond/Grant is a milestone in action cinema history. It is the one that set a standard.
    Greatest of all time? Thats pushing it.

    But most influential? I think so. It is the fight that has never dated. And never will IMO. The first fight to achieve the kinetic energy and ferocity we now take for granted.

    Quite simply, a turning point in the world of action.


    "Old man? Is that what you chaps at SMERSH call each other?"
    "SMERSH?"
    "Of course...SPECTRE."



  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    doubleoego wrote:
    It one of the best Bond fights, but it pipped to the #1 spot by TLD's Bond v Necros fight. The latter has the added danger of being in the back of the plane, then outside it.

    The Bond/Necros fight is great, purely as an exhibitionist stunt but it lacks the factors that i mentioned in my above post that makes the Bond/Grant fight so iconic. Hell, @TheWizardOfIce blasted @Baltimore for failing to acknowledge what I can only presume to be the fabtastic Bond vs Franks lift (I'm English, I don't use the word, elevator) fight, which I find to also be better than Bond vs Necros.

    Ok, it may not be the cumilation of a cat and mouse game, but I believe that the Bond v Necros fight does have a real air of danger, how could it not? They have to cling on to the net, and try and knock the other off. There's danger in the FRWL fight, but nowhere near that of TLD imo.

    As for subterfuge and paranoia, I fair to see where they come into play in FRWL's fight (they're not part of the TLD fight, but I still don't see any in the Bond v Grant fight).
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    doubleoego wrote:
    It one of the best Bond fights, but it pipped to the #1 spot by TLD's Bond v Necros fight. The latter has the added danger of being in the back of the plane, then outside it.

    The Bond/Necros fight is great, purely as an exhibitionist stunt but it lacks the factors that i mentioned in my above post that makes the Bond/Grant fight so iconic. Hell, @TheWizardOfIce blasted @Baltimore for failing to acknowledge what I can only presume to be the fabtastic Bond vs Franks lift (I'm English, I don't use the word, elevator) fight, which I find to also be better than Bond vs Necros.

    I agree. Whilst I think the cargo net fight might well be the best stunt in the series as a fight its not really up there in terms of visceral physical brutality.
    The fights I rate really highly are MI6 butler v Necros, Bond v Trevelyan, Bond v Fisher and Bond v Obanno. Tempted to say Bond v Slate but I think I only rate this so highly for the finale where Bond just watches him bleed out. But I dont think any of them are quite as good as Bond v Grant.
    Risico wrote:
    However, back to fist-fights; my personal favourite would be that been Indiana Jones and the bald mechanic (Pat Roach) around the Flying Wing in 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'.

    A very good call Risico. One of the best ever and a great pay off at the end with the propellor. This would certainly be top 3 without a doubt.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I am still also in awe by SC in DAF as 007 gets to fight for his life in the elevator in Amsterdam. It is an intense fight for his life not unlike in FRWL, this is very animallike as perhaps they tried to do in CR & QoS. SC beats DC in this fight easily when it comes to fierceness and sheer power.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    doubleoego wrote:
    It one of the best Bond fights, but it pipped to the #1 spot by TLD's Bond v Necros fight. The latter has the added danger of being in the back of the plane, then outside it.

    The Bond/Necros fight is great, purely as an exhibitionist stunt but it lacks the factors that i mentioned in my above post that makes the Bond/Grant fight so iconic. Hell, @TheWizardOfIce blasted @Baltimore for failing to acknowledge what I can only presume to be the fabtastic Bond vs Franks lift (I'm English, I don't use the word, elevator) fight, which I find to also be better than Bond vs Necros.

    Ok, it may not be the cumilation of a cat and mouse game, but I believe that the Bond v Necros fight does have a real air of danger, how could it not? They have to cling on to the net, and try and knock the other off. There's danger in the FRWL fight, but nowhere near that of TLD imo.

    As for subterfuge and paranoia, I fair to see where they come into play in FRWL's fight (they're not part of the TLD fight, but I still don't see any in the Bond v Grant fight).

    I mentioned that the subterfuge and paranoia were elements that were built up through out the movie that culminated in the train fight, not that they were part of the actual fight itself. As for the Bond/Necros fight, as I mentioned, it's a great exhibitionist action stunt, full of it's own tension no doubt and is great in it's own right but for me, the orient express fight was far more satisfying and rewarding, especially as it was the culmination of what was regarded as nail biting stuff at the time.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Full on fight with brilliant editing! Set the original template for most fights ever since.
  • The fight scene between James Bond vs Red Grant was amazing! It was an intest fight scene. 007 vs Red Grant would be #1 on my list for best fight scenes in the Bond films.

  • I even remember the Bambi / Thumper battle with Connery better than I do what happened in 1963, and I can't quite explain that feeling. I think it was just absurd seeing Bond getting beaten up like that and something the viewer of the time, wouldn't have maybe expected. But as for the other, Yes it's an impressive battle, but as mentioned, not the best ever of the James Bond franchise

    Oh dear.

    That comment will come back to haunt you. Not even the best fight in DAF.

    You've embarrassed yourself there sir. Can only assume you we're drunk as you wrote it. Perhaps that would explain why you couldn't unlock the Enigma-esque secrets of a pretty straightforward acronym?

    I take umbrage at such asinine statements. Yes I like a drink every now and again, but at time of writing was as sober as sober can be, I don't participate on these pages after drinking, although tell a lie, the last time was probably last Fourth of July, which lo and behold, was a special occasion, and that was it. I don't make a damn habit of it. And I'm not all up on abbreviations, if people had taken the time to notice. If some kids can't present themselves in a coherent way on these pages without need for confusing shortened expressions, I wouldn't have had to enquire in the first place. There's a damn thread on it's own all about it, and I was never one for abbreviated comments when it doesn't take much to express yourself in the full, so it's easy enough for people to understand what you want to say

    I liked the Bambi / Thumper battle from Diamonds, Ok, it was absurd in retrospect seeing one of the best James Bond actors we ever saw, taking a beating like that,, whereas a Connery of a mere few years earlier would of seen the two ladies off, it's not the best fight of the series, granted, but on it's own, it's one of the most memorable encounters of Bond battles that I can remember, probably for all the wrong reasons, some may put forth. Not for everyone though it appears -

    Once again, the very best battles of the series would have to include

    Donald Grant and Connery 1963

    Oddjob and Connery 1964

    Tee-hee and Moore 1973 ? (Ok, it's my favorite release and it's not too bad a battle, if only a bit too short lived)

    Chang and Moore 1979

    Necros and Dalton 1987

    Trevelyan and Brosnan 1995

    Graves and Brosnan 2002

    Obanno (with accomplice) and Craig 2006

    Slate and Craig 2008

    I'm think I'm content enough with most of the above
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited January 2013 Posts: 28,694
    It was a great hoot to read some of your responses this last July 4th, @Baltimore_007. Cheers to you, and let's hope the tradition continues this year! :D
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2013 Posts: 9,117

    I even remember the Bambi / Thumper battle with Connery better than I do what happened in 1963, and I can't quite explain that feeling. I think it was just absurd seeing Bond getting beaten up like that and something the viewer of the time, wouldn't have maybe expected. But as for the other, Yes it's an impressive battle, but as mentioned, not the best ever of the James Bond franchise

    Oh dear.

    That comment will come back to haunt you. Not even the best fight in DAF.

    You've embarrassed yourself there sir. Can only assume you we're drunk as you wrote it. Perhaps that would explain why you couldn't unlock the Enigma-esque secrets of a pretty straightforward acronym?

    I take umbrage at such asinine statements. Yes I like a drink every now and again, but at time of writing was as sober as sober can be, I don't participate on these pages after drinking, although tell a lie, the last time was probably last Fourth of July, which lo and behold, was a special occasion, and that was it. I don't make a damn habit of it. And I'm not all up on abbreviations, if people had taken the time to notice. If some kids can't present themselves in a coherent way on these pages without need for confusing shortened expressions, I wouldn't have had to enquire in the first place. There's a damn thread on it's own all about it, and I was never one for abbreviated comments when it doesn't take much to express yourself in the full, so it's easy enough for people to understand what you want to say

    Methinks the Baltimore doth protest too much! The first step to conquering you're addiction is admitting you have a problem and with a drink every 4th of July you are certainly one pint short of being George Best it seems.

    Nevertheless salient advice about coming on a website pissed. Dont drink and post kids - it wrecks lives.

    FYI (For your information) I'm an old git like you who detests the text speak and overall degradation of the English language so beloved of the youth of today as much as the next man (in fact quite a lot more than the next man) and I had no idea what G.O.A.T. meant. So I thought about the context for about 3 seconds and managed to decipher it. And even then I was ashamed of myself for taking so long. A word of advice - dont apply for MENSA anytime soon as you will be wasting your money.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    @TheWizardOfIce, please, sir, keep things friendly. @Baltimore_007 talked about DAF and look where we are a few posts later. I take it most of us disagree with his initial statement but we can just try and counter it with arguments within the Bond universe. I believe we're dealing with a member who has earned our respect and some of those replies aren't very respectful at all.

    "A word of advice - dont apply for MENSA anytime soon as you will be wasting your money." Perhaps you should think about that for more than 3 seconds before typing it. ;-)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote:
    @TheWizardOfIce, please, sir, keep things friendly. @Baltimore_007 talked about DAF and look where we are a few posts later. I take it most of us disagree with his initial statement but we can just try and counter it with arguments within the Bond universe. I believe we're dealing with a member who has earned our respect and some of those replies aren't very respectful at all.

    "A word of advice - dont apply for MENSA anytime soon as you will be wasting your money." Perhaps you should think about that for more than 3 seconds before typing it. ;-)

    Oh come on its just banter for christs sake.

    Dont take everything so personally. His moaning was pretty feeble in the first place wasnt it - G.O.A.T. wasnt exactly the Da Vinci code to crack was it?

    'The trouble with you Americans is you havent got a sophisticated sense of humour. Have you heard of Robins Nest? Havent got a clue.' - Alan Partridge.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Well, @Dimi is Belgian, so...
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Oh for heaven's sake, stop the p-ing and m-ing, dear Wizard. You were too mean spirited in your comments to Baltimore007; I concur with Dimi.
    And please don't swear; some people might find it offensive - like me.

    I enjoy reading others views, including yours ... if you can hold back the sanctimonious name calling and mean spirited comments. I like banter as much as the next person (yeah, I really do actually), but in my opinion you do go overboard at times.

    And nationality has nothing to do with this.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2013 Posts: 9,117

    I even remember the Bambi / Thumper battle with Connery better than I do what happened in 1963, and I can't quite explain that feeling. I think it was just absurd seeing Bond getting beaten up like that and something the viewer of the time, wouldn't have maybe expected. But as for the other, Yes it's an impressive battle, but as mentioned, not the best ever of the James Bond franchise

    Oh dear.

    That comment will come back to haunt you. Not even the best fight in DAF.

    You've embarrassed yourself there sir. Can only assume you we're drunk as you wrote it. Perhaps that would explain why you couldn't unlock the Enigma-esque secrets of a pretty straightforward acronym?

    This is all I said. How is that mean spirited - just banter about a fairly odd opinion. Bambi & Thumper fight more memorable than Bond v Grant? Please.

    It was Baltimore who went off on one after I just made an offhand comment that he might have been drunk to come to such a strange conclusion. I would say it was pretty clearly just made in jest but he made it sound like I'd accused him of murdering his wife in a drunken rage.

    Of course nationality has nothing to do with it. Unless you are a Partridge fan or have heard of Robins Nest the humour in that statement is likely to be lost on you so just ignore it.
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