Unrealistic response from Bond to Severine's death

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  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    chrisisall wrote: »
    HASEROT wrote: »
    what in god's heaven was Bond supposed to do in that situation??
    As soon as he saw Severine being marched out bloodied & clearly beaten, and sensing what was about to go down, he was supposed to wait for Silva's eyes to move off him for a split second and then launch himself at Silva ducking shots from his men, bash Silva in the head, taking his gun at the same moment, and dive-rolling behind a column whilst taking out a goon or two, drawing fire until the helicopter showed.
    In film, the director is God, and God can make miraculous things happen.
    Severine could have lived to die another day.
    [-(

    Bottom line: I have no problem with how the scene was shot, just how it was written.

    Bond would need near-supernatural foresight to know what was coming next. Not only didn't he expect Silva's little shooting game, he also hadn't been prepared for the man's mercurial nature or how brutal he could be while in that mode of unpredictability. This scene was Bond's first taste of the man's savage nature, where he lead 007 along like they were only having a bit of sadistic fun trying to shoot the glass from Severine's head, then he turns on a dime, shoots Severine with no desire to continue said game, and demonstrates to Bond that he has all the power, especially over who lives and who dies.

    Bond is one hell of an agent with a myriad of skills, but telling the future is not amongst them.

    very well put @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

    @chrisisall Bond has no clue what was going to happen, he has to assess the situation and make sure he wouldn't be putting his own life in danger by making any rash decision...

    i've seen Bond show less emotion in other films for the death of a women - but people love to nitpick this scene because they just love to hate.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited August 2014 Posts: 4,399
    chrisisall wrote: »
    In SF he was potent enough to seduce Severine in a shower the previous night, but impotent enough to not save her the next day. That's how I define . A small tweak here or there and it all could have worked better, either way.

    so the confidence in bedding a woman is the same confidence it takes to make a life and death decision??



    =))


    if anything, what that shows me is NOT amateurish and manipulative film-making... but a character who is trying to regain his edge/nerve... yes, he was good enough to bed her and manipulate her - but look at what cost - by doing what he did, he compromised her life.... remember, Bond was flying by until that time thinking that he passed all the tests - then Silva threw the real scores at him - which he knew were real because of the fact that Silva brought up the "unresolved childhood trauma" line from the psychiatrist's report - to get all that thrown at you, then be forced into a situation that you are not sure what is going to happen - only to find out that you now have to shoot a shot glass of a girl's head - the same girl YOU yourself put in the situation........... yeah, no confidence issues at all - he should've just killed Silva and his guards with 1 bullet and ended the film early for all of us...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    HASEROT wrote: »
    @chrisisall Bond has no clue what was going to happen
    But I did. As soon as they marched her out bloodied, I saw what was happening. I guess that means I would be a better agent than Bond; thanks!:))
    HASEROT wrote: »
    people love to nitpick this scene because they just love to hate.
    And people pick on Jaws & Dolly, or the slide whistle, or the balloon Kananga, or the funny Felix, or the laughing BMW remote ride, or the Tarzan yell, or the CGI surfaramma because they love to hate-?
    Dude, we over-analyze our obsessions. It's a fan thing.
    I only hate MR, and as such, I rarely discuss it in detail.
    The rest is play. B-)
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    I don't love to hate anything. If I don't like something, I don't like it, it's as simple as that.

    And oddly enough, out of all my complaints with SF, Bond's reaction to Severine's death was not one of them. Bond remained detached as usual and didn't want to show emotion over her death, especially because he was planning his inevitable attack that happened a few moments later. I don't see the lack of realism here.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited August 2014 Posts: 4,399
    in DN... at the dinner scene - Bond obviously knew Dr No was the evil mastermind, why not pick up the dinner knife and throw into Dr No's head??

    in FRWL... Grant should've just killed Bond instead of knocking him out.. he could've put a bullet in him, walked into the next compartment, killed Tanya - and then just walked out with the Lector scot-free..

    in TB, Bond could've turned and shot Largo with the rifle while skeet shooting, could've made a miraculous escape - discover the bombs later with Felix and then call in the US military to recover them..

    in YOLT, why not let Bond get into the rocket - then once it's in orbit, blow it up??.. Blofeld knew it was Bond getting in at the last minute, and the rocket had a denator built in (as we found out, courtesy of Blofeld).. why not just let him go up there and die?... and even if he didn't know it has him... just let him go up - then once something starts not going to plan - blow the rocket up then??..

    in OHMSS, how did Blofeld not know it was Bond the entire time?? They obviously met face to face before... but not only that, why not just kill him - throw him down in the wheel house... let his body go undiscovered - by the time M and the rest of MI6 would know what happened, it would already be too late..

    etc. etc. etc.

    everyone one of those films were made and written by amateurs...... terrible - all of them

    8-|
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    HASEROT wrote: »
    in DN... at the dinner scene - Bond obviously knew Dr No was the evil mastermind, why not pick up the dinner knife and throw into Dr No's head??

    in FRWL... Grant should've just killed Bond instead of knocking him out.. he could've put a bullet in him, walked into the next compartment, killed Tanya - and then just walked out with the Lector scot-free..

    in TB, Bond could've turned and shot Largo with the rifle while skeet shooting, could've made a miraculous escape - discover the bombs later with Felix and then call in the US military to recover them..

    in YOLT, why not let Bond get into the rocket - then once it's in orbit, blow it up??.. Blofeld knew it was Bond getting in at the last minute, and the rocket had a denator built in (as we found out, courtesy of Blofeld).. why not just let him go up there and die?... and even if he didn't know it has him... just let him go up - then once something starts not going to plan - blow the rocket up then??..

    in OHMSS, how did Blofeld not know it was Bond the entire time?? They obviously met face to face before... but not only that, why not just kill him - throw him down in the wheel house... let his body go undiscovered - by the time M and the rest of MI6 would know what happened, it would already be too late..

    etc. etc. etc.

    everyone one of those films were made and written by amateurs...... terrible - all of them

    8-|

    Don't forget in Goldfinger, Oddjob could have killed Bond in the first 10 minutes. Instead, Goldfinger let's Bond live and even treats him to some luxury in his Farm. Could have killed him, but no. Goldfinger's own stupidity was his downfall.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited August 2014 Posts: 17,804
    HASEROT wrote: »
    everyone one of those films were made and written by amateurs...... terrible - all of them
    All those moments you mention were in service to the larger story; Severine's death was a minor part.
    Have her die as seen, but don't have bond seduce her in the shower.
    Have him seduce her in the shower, but let her live.
    It was just handled pretty nastily IMO.
    But it's only my opinion, based on the type of Bond scenes I am comfortable with. Andrea's death in TMWTGG was similarly off-putting to me.
    Perhaps I need to reassess my Bond comfort zone.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited August 2014 Posts: 4,399
    by having her live.. what purpose does that serve? could they have?.. yeah probably if written a bit differently - but that scene gives us a clue as to how grisly Silva is as a person... that he not only has such disregard for the lives of strangers - but the lives of people that he supposedly "loved"..... and for Bond, it shows him the repercussions of his actions (or carelessness)... its the same as Fields' death in QOS - did she have to die?... probably not, but she did - and it was a direct result of Bond's actions... the same could be said for almost every female death in the series... what about Corinne in MR? Bond used and broomed her pretty quick - knowing that her aiding him put her in harms way - but all he did was say "take care." ...granted he didn't know she was going to die the next day, but he still had to know she was in danger staying there - but i didn't see him escort her to safety?
  • Posts: 2,341
    Silva was into playing mind games with Bond. He wanted to shock and get an emotional response but Bond refused to play his game. I think Bond's response was appropriate. He took his time then blew away Silva's men before springing his own trap.
  • edited August 2014 Posts: 1,068
    Severine's death was a device purely to show on Silva's introduction, how much of a cold hearted ruthless bastard he is. Using the time honoured formula, a likeable interesting (and for Severine - attractive / glamorous) character is despatched to suddenly shock and stir up the audience's hatred for Silva to up the ante.

    The 'waste of a good scotch' quip is in bad taste but at that point Bond is being portrayed as damaged goods and he was still playing that role to Silva. Has there ever been many characters along Bond's way who've been directly involved in drawing the plot along that made it to the other end unless they were the Bond girl to bed at the end or another intelligence agent!? Sometimes they too don't make it....
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    Realistic or not, it's not too unique a moment, is it?

    * O look, Aki died! Aki who? Tiger, we have to get to that island and I have to marry a girl with a face like a pig.

    * Miss Anders is dead. Peanut?

    ;-)
  • Posts: 908
    HASEROT wrote: »
    in DN... at the dinner scene - Bond obviously knew Dr No was the evil mastermind, why not pick up the dinner knife and throw into Dr No's head??

    in FRWL... Grant should've just killed Bond instead of knocking him out.. he could've put a bullet in him, walked into the next compartment, killed Tanya - and then just walked out with the Lector scot-free..

    in TB, Bond could've turned and shot Largo with the rifle while skeet shooting, could've made a miraculous escape - discover the bombs later with Felix and then call in the US military to recover them..

    in YOLT, why not let Bond get into the rocket - then once it's in orbit, blow it up??.. Blofeld knew it was Bond getting in at the last minute, and the rocket had a denator built in (as we found out, courtesy of Blofeld).. why not just let him go up there and die?... and even if he didn't know it has him... just let him go up - then once something starts not going to plan - blow the rocket up then??..

    in OHMSS, how did Blofeld not know it was Bond the entire time?? They obviously met face to face before... but not only that, why not just kill him - throw him down in the wheel house... let his body go undiscovered - by the time M and the rest of MI6 would know what happened, it would already be too late..

    etc. etc. etc.

    everyone one of those films were made and written by amateurs...... terrible - all of them

    8-|

    The Bond franchise is riddled with not too logical occurrences, but you indeed managed to avoid all of them in this list of yours. Remarkable!
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    The Bond franchise is riddled with not too logical occurrences, but you indeed managed to avoid all of them in this list of yours. Remarkable!

    (:|
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    If you hate these films written by "amateurs" why the hell are you here! This is a fan site.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    If you hate these films written by "amateurs" why the hell are you here! This is a fan site.

    if one cannot understand sarcasm, then one should reread my earlier posts - or one will feel like an idiot.

    :)>-
  • Bond's reaction would be in keeping with his Double O training. Remember what Q said in TWINE, "Never let them see you bleed". That means emotionally too.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited August 2014 Posts: 24,187
    Exactly.

    Plus, Everyone seems to treat Severine as an exceptionally important part of Bond's life. He met her in a casino and then slept with her. That's where it ends. He spent more time with Rosie Carver! I'd be upset if Bond had openly lamented her death. He's caught in a nasty situation. Escape seems difficult, borderline impossible. Focus, 007. The girl is dead, but you needn't be. No use crying over spilled milk. The girl is spilled milk. So you see, I understand why he responded in as cold a fashion as he did.

    I do find it a bit harder though to understand why he deliberately missed. But then, would it have made any difference. I bet Silva would have shot her anyway.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    * O look, Aki died! Aki who? Tiger, we have to get to that island and I have to marry a girl with a face like a pig.
    You're right. :-O
    Now I hate YOLT as well. [-(

    :))
  • edited August 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I suppose the difference between Aki and Severine was that Aki wasn't (as far as we know) a former prostitute. There's more of a comparison between Severine and Andrea in MWTGG.

    Aki was a fairly basic character really. Efficient but not not portrayed as "complex" or "troubled"
  • I don't know, I thought Bond's reaction to Aki's death seemed as strong as his reaction to the deaths of Tracy and Vesper, going into tearless bereavement and being expressionless more through shellshock than callous indifference. Bond's reaction to Severine's murder was anger masked by bravado and a tasteless quip.
  • Posts: 1,631
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I do find it a bit harder though to understand why he deliberately missed. But then, would it have made any difference. I bet Silva would have shot her anyway.

    I think it was due to a lack of confidence in his ability not to accidentally shoot her if he was actually aiming for the shot glass atop her head. We'd already seen Bond struggling to hit his mark on the shooting range target earlier in the film from a similar distance. Plus, he was now using a weapon that is surely less accurate than his Walther and that he, presumably, doesn't have much experience using.

    Instead of taking the chance of accidentally killing her, Bond instead went with the slim hope that perhaps Silva wouldn't kill her.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    @dalton, that makes perfect sense! Thank you, friend. :-)
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    HASEROT wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    If you hate these films written by "amateurs" why the hell are you here! This is a fan site.

    if one cannot understand sarcasm, then one should reread my earlier posts - or one will feel like an idiot.

    :)>-

    Or not post when drunk after party ...sorry can't believe I posted that. Repressed anger

    X_X
  • Posts: 11,119
    Hey before people get angry, I am one of the most die-hard Skyfall-supporters who's alive in here :-). It's just a detail that caught my attention. I found Bond's response a bit too much Marvel's Super Heroes. I mean, do real agents react that cold blooded? Some....emotion could have been added.
  • Posts: 1,405
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Exactly.

    Plus, Everyone seems to treat Severine as an exceptionally important part of Bond's life. He met her in a casino and then slept with her. That's where it ends. He spent more time with Rosie Carver! I'd be upset if Bond had openly lamented her death. He's caught in a nasty situation. Escape seems difficult, borderline impossible. Focus, 007. The girl is dead, but you needn't be. No use crying over spilled milk. The girl is spilled milk. So you see, I understand why he responded in as cold a fashion as he did.

    I do find it a bit harder though to understand why he deliberately missed. But then, would it have made any difference. I bet Silva would have shot her anyway.

    I don't agree that "he responded in as cold a fashion as he did".
    Look at the scene again. His body language speaks volume. In fact, I honestly think that this particular scene is Craig's best in Skyfall.
  • Posts: 1,631
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @dalton, that makes perfect sense! Thank you, friend. :-)

    You're welcome. :)

    I think Silva set that situation up for the exact reason to get under Bond's skin. He could have just simply done away with Severine in some other, less elaborate way off screen, but he knew that Bond's marksmanship scores were low due to the test scores he had obtained by hacking into MI6, so he decided to use that to his advantage, making Bond look and feel weak and perhaps make Bond think that M has sent him out into the field unprepared to face Silva.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Exactly.

    Plus, Everyone seems to treat Severine as an exceptionally important part of Bond's life. He met her in a casino and then slept with her. That's where it ends. He spent more time with Rosie Carver! I'd be upset if Bond had openly lamented her death. He's caught in a nasty situation. Escape seems difficult, borderline impossible. Focus, 007. The girl is dead, but you needn't be. No use crying over spilled milk. The girl is spilled milk. So you see, I understand why he responded in as cold a fashion as he did.

    I do find it a bit harder though to understand why he deliberately missed. But then, would it have made any difference. I bet Silva would have shot her anyway.

    I don't agree that "he responded in as cold a fashion as he did".
    Look at the scene again. His body language speaks volume. In fact, I honestly think that this particular scene is Craig's best in Skyfall.

    I agree ...the scene works perfectly if you get the subtext. Emotion would have ruined the scene...

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    chrisisall wrote: »
    HASEROT wrote: »
    @chrisisall Bond has no clue what was going to happen
    But I did. As soon as they marched her out bloodied, I saw what was happening. I guess that means I would be a better agent than Bond; thanks!:))

    99.9% of the audience knew something good wasn't going to happen - that is just common sense - and even Bond knew that...... but you're telling me, you knew that she was being dragged out to play a sadistic recreation of the ol' William Tell bit?... i highly doubt that...... he could've dragged her out to drop a piano on her for all we knew.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    * O look, Aki died! Aki who? Tiger, we have to get to that island and I have to marry a girl with a face like a pig.
    You're right. :-O
    Now I hate YOLT as well. [-(

    :))

    might as well..... lets roll out the hate wagon, on that film too.. \m/

    and since it's not one of my favorites, i will gladly love ripping that film to shreds ;)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited August 2014 Posts: 17,804
    99.9% of the audience knew something good wasn't going to happen - that is just common sense - and even Bond knew that...... but you're telling me, you knew that she was being dragged out to play a sadistic recreation of the ol' William Tell bit?
    Once I saw her bloodied & clearly beaten, yeah, I knew she was gonna die. Precisely how, no. But if I were Bond I would have started misbehaving as soon as I saw her.
  • edited August 2014 Posts: 4,622
    chrisisall wrote: »
    As soon as he saw Severine being marched out bloodied & clearly beaten, and sensing what was about to go down, he was supposed to wait for Silva's eyes to move off him for a split second and then launch himself at Silva ducking shots from his men, bash Silva in the head, taking his gun at the same moment, and dive-rolling behind a column whilst taking out a goon or two, drawing fire until the helicopter showed.
    In film, the director is God, and God can make miraculous things happen.
    Severine could have lived to die another day.
    [-( .
    Exactly! The scene could just as easily have been written this way too. This is fantasy, pure ficton movie-making. The Director and/or prouducers are God. They can shape these films anyway they want. We are not analyzing a real-life scenario that actually happened and kicking around real motives and actions. Rather we are discussing storytelling choices.
    Again I relate to @gustavgraves opening post. I don't like the scene. I don't like Mendes and Craig's storytelling choices. This scene was off-putting IMHO of course. I find Craig's portrayal of Bond in general to be rather schizophrenic.
    I also don't like the seduction of Severine scene. Not well done. The outcry from sex-slavery opponents and such was entirely predictable. Could of seen that coming a mile away.
    I also didn't like the way the murder of the art dealer was presented, because the scene was presented in such a way that it opened up predictable criticism of Bond being portrayed as a disinterested party to murder.
    These scenes can be conceived in such a way that you don't leave yourself open to such predictable backlash.
    What bothers is that it seems the filmmakers were oblivious to the tone that Bond movies have generally had.
    LTK was probably the darkest Bond film that we'dseen pre-Skyfall, but even it only flirted with the dark.
    btw, I don't consider QoS to be particularly dark. Rather it was just a rather strange alternative portrayal of Bond storytelling, unique to the director Forster, with a dash of Haggis.
    LTK's general tone was generally consistent with what had preceded.
    If dark anti-hero Bond is the direction that Mendes and Craig want to go in. Fine. The sandbox is theirs for now, but it doesn't mean I have to like it, and I don't. [-(
    But I am a Connery purist. Sean's Bond was dark enough and tough enough for me. Connery Bond was about as dark as I need. And he wasn't really dark at all. Rather he was simply tough and nastywhen needed, but generally he was a relaxed, at ease chap.

    In the meantime, these dark Bond scenes don't really detract from SF as a watchable movie. SF is all over the map in terms of tone, but still it works as popcorn entertainment, if not the character driven, dramatic masterpiece that Mendes and Craig maybe hoped it would be.
    I can analogize SF with some of the Moore movies, in that some of Sir Rog's films had moments that were way too light, moments that wouldn't have been found in the Connery films.
    SF IMO veers too far in the other direction - to the anti-hero dark side. But neither Rog's frivolous moments nor Craig's flirtations with noir manage to sabatoge the films.
    TSWLM MR and SF all work quite well as Bond adventures, despite their occasional departures from the perfect Connery era tone-template.
    Rog, Jaws and Anya's van-hijinks at the pyramids actually bugs me as much as Craig, Silva and Severine's shooting games on the island.

    If I was consulting these guys, I would insist that we all sit down and watch the first 6 films together and simply bring that tone forward into each film. Seems simple, but with Cubby dead - the last link with the golden era - maybe those days are truly gone. LTK, the last film that Cubby had control of, might have been the end of that era. The new breed of Bond filmmakers might continue to insist on doing Bond differently. C'est la vie. Life changes.
    I don't think we ever thought we'd lose the gun barrel opening for even one film, let alone 3, but we did.


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