Is Thunderball Overrated?

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  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited September 2014 Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Except that I do not buy the conclusion of the court of law and the subsequent attitude of McClory certainly makes me think that the creative force behind the novel was Fleming and no one else.

    If you are happy to ignore the rule of law then I suggest you treat the verdict of 'The Battle For Bond' with slightly less contempt. This excellent book shows that Fleming lost interest in the whole TB project (and during this period was largely without inspiration for Bond as a whole) quite early on in the crafting of the story and - distasteful as it is to face up to - Mcclory and Whittingham were the 'creative force' that pushed it on.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But whatever you think about the judgment, it is irrelevant: the book was written by Fleming, it was his prose, his work in the end, his writing, his characters.

    Hmm not really sure how Fleming drawing from someone else's screenplay and then passing it off as his entirely his own work can be classed as irrelevant? His initial draft (which is actually pretty awful) really only features the bomb heist and the climactic underwater battle from the final story - and these were both McClory's ideas in the first place. As to who thought of what in terms of the later elements no one really knows but a lot of ideas weren't Fleming's. To say its all his work is rather like saying John Gardner is responsible for LTK and GE because he wrote the novelisation. Thats all Fleming's TB novel really is - a novelisation of a script he didnt write - albeit with his own distinct flourishes here and there.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Agreed @Wiz. I was going to mention 'Battle for Bond', but I'm fully aware of @Ludovico's slavish reverence for Fleming, so assumed he'd dismiss it as nonsense.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 4,622
    I first saw this film as a 12 year old kid on a double bill with YOLT in big screen cinema presentation.
    By the time I exited cinema, that cold snowy, early evening winter day, I was a drooling, babbling, blubbering, Bond-world captive.
    It took about two weeks to come back to reality. I was immersed in the Bond universe of TB and YOLT that long.
    I was in total awe of both films then, and still am. I couldn't get enough of TB. Looking up at that big screen. Totally immersive experience. Felt like I was right underwater.
    Then we went into space, and had a big war in a hollowed out volcano.
    Like I said, real world didn't cut it for about two weeks.
    TB is best appreciated on big screen with big sound. One needs to immerse.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    I saw them both on the big screen as well. Both shocked & awed me.
  • Posts: 1,310
    I think Thunderball's largest issue is it's excessive runtime, and not just with the underwater stuff. Everything else to me is kinda minor: the jetpack concept (and Looney Tunes inspired exhaust pipe water shooters) is totally ridiculous yet somehow manages to be classy. Largo is just decent, but certainly not bad. And yes, THAT REAR PROJECTION and VOICE DUBBING!

    But then the good: Connery in top (if flippant) form, some great fistacuffs, a good Bond girl with an EXCELLENT villainess, a good yarn of a plot (even though it has been done to death at this point) and that Bond-mania atmosphere that I almost can't explain. It's just a really cool film, if that makes sense.

    Thunderball has always comfortably sat in my top ten, so I don't think it's particularly overrated.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    SJK91 wrote: »
    Largo is just decent, but certainly not bad.
    He's a paid thug, the guy with the cat was pulling the strings. But yeah, he was okay.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Except that I do not buy the conclusion of the court of law and the subsequent attitude of McClory certainly makes me think that the creative force behind the novel was Fleming and no one else.

    If you are happy to ignore the rule of law then I suggest you treat the verdict of 'The Battle For Bond' with slightly less contempt. This excellent book shows that Fleming lost interest in the whole TB project (and during this period was largely without inspiration for Bond as a whole) quite early on in the crafting of the story and - distasteful as it is to face up to - Mcclory and Whittingham were the 'creative force' that pushed it on.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But whatever you think about the judgment, it is irrelevant: the book was written by Fleming, it was his prose, his work in the end, his writing, his characters.

    Hmm not really sure how Fleming drawing from someone else's screenplay and then passing it off as his entirely his own work can be classed as irrelevant? His initial draft (which is actually pretty awful) really only features the bomb heist and the climactic underwater battle from the final story - and these were both McClory's ideas in the first place. As to who thought of what in terms of the later elements no one really knows but a lot of ideas weren't Fleming's. To say its all his work is rather like saying John Gardner is responsible for LTK and GE because he wrote the novelisation. Thats all Fleming's TB novel really is - a novelisation of a script he didnt write - albeit with his own distinct flourishes here and there.

    What I am saying is that in the end, Fleming wrote the book, the characters and the narrative were his creation. King Lear was written by Shakespeare, not Geoffrey of Monmouth, even though it is in the Historia Regum Brittaniae where Shakespeare founds his inspiration.

    I did not intend to ignore the rule of law, although I understand that my comment (which I wrote when I was tired) sounded like it. I was merely talking about the work of literature that is TB. In the end, as a finished novel it is the work of Ian Fleming and he put more on it than his name. He even used Blofeld as a recurring villain, the only one in the whole series.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    Poor old FRWL and OHMSS - they deserve better company.

    There is no better company
    ;)
  • Posts: 11,425
    SJK91 wrote: »
    I think Thunderball's largest issue is it's excessive runtime, and not just with the underwater stuff. Everything else to me is kinda minor: the jetpack concept (and Looney Tunes inspired exhaust pipe water shooters) is totally ridiculous yet somehow manages to be classy. Largo is just decent, but certainly not bad. And yes, THAT REAR PROJECTION and VOICE DUBBING!

    But then the good: Connery in top (if flippant) form, some great fistacuffs, a good Bond girl with an EXCELLENT villainess, a good yarn of a plot (even though it has been done to death at this point) and that Bond-mania atmosphere that I almost can't explain. It's just a really cool film, if that makes sense.

    Thunderball has always comfortably sat in my top ten, so I don't think it's particularly overrated.

    I actually think it's a good strong plot, regardless of who came up with it. Brilliant villainess (one of the best things about the film) and domino is pretty good too. largo for me is a little lacklustre and unthreatening and as Wizard has pointed out, there is a strange lack of any impending doom or danger in relation to Spectre's threat. You never get that race against time vibe that is so well done in other Bond movies, especially, dare I say it, in OP.

    Music, sets, much of the cast are all fantastic. I just never grips me in the way the first three do, and doesn't provide the simple pleasure of a YOLT or TSWLM.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    SJK91 wrote: »
    I think Thunderball's largest issue is it's excessive runtime, and not just with the underwater stuff. Everything else to me is kinda minor: the jetpack concept (and Looney Tunes inspired exhaust pipe water shooters) is totally ridiculous yet somehow manages to be classy. Largo is just decent, but certainly not bad. And yes, THAT REAR PROJECTION and VOICE DUBBING!

    But then the good: Connery in top (if flippant) form, some great fistacuffs, a good Bond girl with an EXCELLENT villainess, a good yarn of a plot (even though it has been done to death at this point) and that Bond-mania atmosphere that I almost can't explain. It's just a really cool film, if that makes sense.

    Thunderball has always comfortably sat in my top ten, so I don't think it's particularly overrated.

    I actually think it's a good strong plot, regardless of who came up with it. Brilliant villainess (one of the best things about the film) and domino is pretty good too. largo for me is a little lacklustre and unthreatening and as Wizard has pointed out, there is a strange lack of any impending doom or danger in relation to Spectre's threat. You never get that race against time vibe that is so well done in other Bond movies, especially, dare I say it, in OP.

    Music, sets, much of the cast are all fantastic. It just never grips me in the way the first three do, and doesn't provide the simple pleasure of a YOLT or TSWLM.

  • Posts: 11,425
    Could it be that one of it's failings is that the locations become a bit repetitive by the end? Bond movies traditional use change of location to move the narrative along a bit. Even in DR we move from mainland Jamaica to Crab cCay. I just feel with TB it all becomes a bit samey from a visual and narrative perspective. And then the 'epic' boat scene at the end has the awful speeded up footage and abrupt ending.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »

    You never get that race against time vibe that is so well done in other Bond movies, especially, dare I say it, in OP.

    Music, sets, much of the cast are all fantastic. I just never grips me in the way the first three do, and doesn't provide the simple pleasure of a YOLT or TSWLM.

    You may certainly dare Sir!

    The OP countdown is the best in the series. When even the unflappable Roger Moore starts panicking it's an emergency that is best summed up by the boys from Bottom:

    Richie: How's it looking Eddie?
    Eddie: Well on a scale of 1 to 10 I'd say its bicycle clip time!

    I think as some others have already said - TB just adds up to less than the sum of its parts.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Just a question about the end: isn't it rather cold whizzing through the air wet & with not much clothes on at that speed?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @chrisisall, Domino's outfit would be enough to keep me warm. ;-)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Just a question about the end: isn't it rather cold whizzing through the air wet & with not much clothes on at that speed?

    I think if I was Domino I'd be slightly more worried that Bond's arms might get tired and he drop me given he's the only one tied on. Hypothermia would be a secondary worry.

    Has anyone also noticed how when Bond throws the rope out of the dinghy he leaves it underneath his arm? When that plane hits he's going to have his arm ripped out of its socket. Always annoys me - just another moment of TB sloppiness.
  • Posts: 11,425
    He'd be straight back to Shrublands after that, uncovering more plots for Spectre extortion.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    He'd be straight back to Shrublands after that, uncovering more plots for Spectre extortion.

    And the plot-relying-on-a-random-coincidence wheel turns again...
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Bond discovers a pyramid money scheme whilst convalescing in Shrublands!!!

  • I didn't know "Thunderball" was that highly rated. Fans rarely talk about it. Personally, it's one of my favorite Connery movies.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @chrisisall, Domino's outfit would be enough to keep me warm. ;-)
    Agreed. Why should not the ending be as unbelievable as Domino herself? ;)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    chrisisall wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @chrisisall, Domino's outfit would be enough to keep me warm. ;-)
    Agreed. Why should not the ending be as unbelievable as Domino herself? ;)

    It's certainly the sexiest entry in the series and I don't mind the underwater scenes at all. I'm not going to get bogged down in the Fleming plagiarism case with McClory and Whittingham - I have The Battle for Bond but have not read it so I'm no expert on it; I leave that to others while I plough a different research furrow.
  • Posts: 11,425
    The underwater scenes look fantastic. Barry's score sublime. Just doesn't make for very exciting watching.

    Feels more like a Jacques Cousteau film.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »
    The underwater scenes look fantastic. Barry's score sublime. Just doesn't make for very thrilling watching.

    Feels more like a Jacques Cousteau film.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Getafix wrote: »
    Feels more like a Jacques Cousteau film.
    You say that like it's a bad thing; I love Jacques Cousteau films.
    :))
  • Posts: 2,341
    CTrent29 wrote: »
    I didn't know "Thunderball" was that highly rated. Fans rarely talk about it. Personally, it's one of my favorite Connery movies.

    I am enjoying everyone's comments. I had thought something was wrong with me because I was not that impressed with TB. @CTrent29 makes a good observation: TB is not widely discussed these days. It is still fun to watch but for the most part, the film may have lost some of its luster.
    It has a great cosmetic look to it and it looks like it was made yesterday the colors so vibrant but I stand by my earlier comments. The film pales in comparison to what came before it (and after for the most part).
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    royale65 wrote: »
    Bond discovers a pyramid money scheme whilst convalescing in Shrublands!!!

    I'm feeling a TV spinoff here: 'James Bond, Health Farm P.I.'

    Every week Bond uncovers some nefarious activity (Watergate, The Hitler Diaries, Why the BBC re-commission Mrs Browns Boys) completely by chance. At the end of each episode he ends up with a minor muscle strain necessitating him returning back to Shrublands to recuperate where he can find some more dodgy goings on by breaking into other patient's rooms in the next episode.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Feels more like a Jacques Cousteau film.
    You say that like it's a bad thing; I love Jacques Cousteau films.
    :))

    And JC was friends with Ian Fleming too. He inspired Fleming's underwater passages in the LALD novel too.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Feels more like a Jacques Cousteau film.
    You say that like it's a bad thing; I love Jacques Cousteau films.
    :))

    And JC was friends with Ian Fleming too. He inspired Fleming's underwater passages in the LALD novel too.

    I have 'fess up to never actually seeing a JC film. Closest I've come is THe Life Aqautic! I guess what I meant was that it is visually stunning but has a documentary feel.

    I believe JC said the diving in Montego Bay was amongst the best in the world in the 50s. Sadly it's all gone now. Jamaica's seas are totally trashed. Actually have some friends in Orachabessa this weekend doing an underwater sea litter pick. Tragic. Sure Fleming would have been heartbroken to see the dead coral, plastic detritus etc.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Feels more like a Jacques Cousteau film.
    You say that like it's a bad thing; I love Jacques Cousteau films.
    :))

    And JC was friends with Ian Fleming too. He inspired Fleming's underwater passages in the LALD novel too.

    I have 'fess up to never actually seeing a JC film. Closest I've come is THe Life Aqautic! I guess what I meant was that it is visually stunning but has a documentary feel.

    I believe JC said the diving in Montego Bay was amongst the best in the world in the 50s. Sadly it's all gone now. Jamaica's seas are totally trashed. Actually have some friends in Orachabessa this weekend doing an underwater sea litter pick. Tragic. Sure Fleming would have been heartbroken to see the dead coral, plastic detritus etc.

    Yes, I meant to say that Young's Bond films (especially DN and TB) had a distinct documentary feel that added to the realism. And yes, I'm sure that Fleming would have been upset by the pollution in Jamaican waters these days as he was an early ecologist.
  • Posts: 15,117
    I don't see the issue with Shrubland. The hero uncovering a scheme or getitng himself into an adventure by total chance is a common trope of the genre.
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