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WARNING SPOILERS: SPECTRE Plot hole?

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  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    SirHilaryBray wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    SirHilaryBray wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    SirHilaryBray wrote: »

    Furthermore if we are playing by those rules then Bond would be dead before the events of SPECTRE as he would have been dead within the PTS of Skyfall Being hit with a depleted uranium shell , commonly used to destroy army tanks, he would have“turned his lungs inside out and killed him”, the panel of experts have concluded "he would have been dead within 7 minutes of being shot".

    Well it is pointed out quite clearly (an ultra rare example of Rory actually contributing to the film rather than just standing there looking gormless) than the depleted uranium shell that hits Bond is a ricochet. So I'm quite happy to believe that it had lost enough velocity so it wouldnt tear Bond in half but still had enough to pierce his skin.

    OnlyManWhoCan wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce

    Good explanations there! I suppose that it all rests on when the funeral was - it can take weeks for one of these to be arranged so it is conceivable that all the action takes place after the 11th/12th November.

    However, the 'debrief' scene with M and Bond must surely take place within days of the Mexico scene - not only would M demand Bond to be there ASAP to explain himself, but the energy of the scene makes me think it happened recently.

    At the end of the day the Bond Universe is not the real world so we can forgive it the lack of poppies and the abundance of snow in the alps! ;-)

    Perhaps we are missing a bit where Bond has to escape the Mexican authorities hunting for the man who threw a body into a crowd. Someone filmed Bond in the helicopter on their phone and Bond cant risk the airport so has to lie low for a few days and then stow away on a ship that takes a week to get to Southampton?

    Your failing to get the science, is not the impact of the bullet which kills, is the poisoning from the Uranium in the blood stream. DU used in munitions has 60% of the radioactivity of natural uranium.

    From the same wiki entry you got that stat from;

    The U.S. Department of Defense claims that no human cancer of any type has been seen as a result of exposure to either natural or depleted uranium.[78] Militaries have long had risk-reduction procedures for their troops to follow,[79] and studies are in consistent agreement that veterans who used DU-enhanced munitions have not suffered, so far, from an increased risk of cancer (see the Gulf War and Balkans sections below). The effects of DU on civilian populations are, however, a topic of intense and ongoing controversy.

    As early as 1997, British Army doctors warned the British MoD (Ministry of Defence) that exposure to depleted uranium increased the risk of developing lung, lymph and brain cancer, and recommended a series of safety precautions.[80] According to a report issued summarizing the advice of the doctors, "Inhalation of insoluble uranium dioxide dust will lead to accumulation in the lungs with very slow clearance—if any. … Although chemical toxicity is low, there may be localised radiation damage of the lung leading to cancer." The report warns that "All personnel … should be aware that uranium dust inhalation carries a long-term risk … [the dust] has been shown to increase the risks of developing lung, lymph and brain cancers."[80] In 2003, the Royal Society called, again, for urgent attention to be paid to the possible health and environmental impact of depleted uranium, and added its backing to the United Nations Environment Programme's call for a scientific assessment of sites struck with depleted uranium.[81] In early 2004, the UK Pensions Appeal Tribunal Service attributed birth defect claims from a February 1991 Gulf War combat veteran to depleted uranium poisoning.[82][83] Also, a 2005 epidemiology review concluded: "In aggregate the human epidemiological evidence is consistent with increased risk of birth defects in offspring of persons exposed to DU."[10] Studies using cultured cells and laboratory rodents continue to suggest the possibility of leukemogenic, genetic, reproductive, and neurological effects from chronic exposure.


    OK that's the US Defence Dept that is quoting that so I agree it has to be treated with a pretty hefty dose of scepticism and Bond does leave the round in there for several weeks/months (?) but the point made earlier that he should be dead within 7 minutes of being hit refers to the colossal trauma caused by a DU round. Even Louis Slotin who was exposed to an exposed core about to go critical on the Manhattan Project took a week to die so Bond may well develop some sort of cancer a few years down the line but I doubt the radioactivity would have any relevance in the time span of SF.

    And its still probably not as big a cancer risk as 60 Morlands specials a day!

    No, what are you talking about, that's all about being around something "airborne radiation risk exposure" what Bond suffered was the effect of it entering directly in to his blood stream through the wound, the contaminated shrapnel was lodged in his shoulder. If your around people with the flu sneezing and coughing you might catch something from them. If you drink their saliva your pretty much guaranteed to get ill do you get me?

    Well the original post I was responding to stated this: Bond would be dead before the events of SPECTRE as he would have been dead within the PTS.

    I'm far from an expert at all but given one of the technicians at Chernobyl who received 'Deep Radiation Burns on 100% of his body' took 2 weeks to die I dont see how Bond could have died by the end of the PTS due to radiation poisoning alone?

    I've had a quick scan here: http://www.ccnr.org/du_hague.html

    And here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/depleted-uranium-du-general-information-and-toxicology

    Mostly its concerned with inhalation (probably because most people who get hit by a DU round dont survive so radiation poisoning is irrelevant) and the long term effects.

    A few key paragraphs here though:

    If DU enters the body, it can potentially cause damage from the inside (internal exposure) either through irradiation or by chemical action. It can enter the body by inhalation (breathing in fine dust), ingestion via the mouth, contamination of an open wound, or, on the battlefield, by the embedding of shrapnel fragments. Because uranium has been used extensively as a nuclear fuel, and many workers involved in processing uranium have been potentially exposed to dusts containing uranium, over many years, there have been many studies carried out on the behaviour of uranium in the body. In particular, there have been numerous studies conducted to determine the behaviour of uranium in the body after deposition in the lungs of a wide range of different uranium compounds, including the various oxides produced by the use of DU munitions.

    Most of the uranium absorbed into blood is rapidly excreted, mainly in urine. About 65% is excreted during the first day, another 10% during the rest of the first week. There is a continuing slow excretion, about 0.002% of the original uptake to blood per day after a year. That is why measurements are often made on urine to estimate the amount of uranium in the body.

    Note the sentence in bold. Even when DU is inside the body it is still only 'potentially' harmful.

    As I say I am far from even approaching being an expert in the slightest so I dare say you know more than me. I would be grateful (and happy to stand corrected) therefore if you could point me in the direction of some sources that indicate that DU in the bloodstream is as fatal as you seem to be suggesting because I still contend that the dose Bond would've received would have been irrelevant for the duration of SF. Maybe he would be suffering some effects by SP - difficult to say. Any experts on radioactive toxicology on the boards?

    Fair enough I will concede this argument, very well researched.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    If only we had Dr. No on these boards. He seems to know about radioactivity....

    Well you say that but this line has always made me wonder:

    'My work has given me a unique knowledge of radioactivity,but not without cost, as you see.'

    He then raises his hand as if to say that his radioactivity work was the reason his hands were cut off not the Tongs.

    Could he be referring to the money he stole from the Tong is what he used to educate himself and so he could dedicate his life to researching nuclear science?
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Maybe he handled a lump of uranium with bare hands? Like you I always assumed he last his hands in a radiation accident, and not the Tongs.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    royale65 wrote: »
    Maybe he handled a lump of uranium with bare hands? Like you I always assumed he last his hands in a radiation accident, and not the Tongs.

    What an idiot! He shouldve used some tongs!

    I'll get my coat.
  • TokolosheTokoloshe Under your bed
    Posts: 2,667
    In the novel he has his hands cut off by the Tongs. In the film the aforementioned line implies that it was radiation accident of some sort.

    In the novel he is also stabbed in the heart area, but survives because of his dextrocardia - an extremely rare condition in which the heart is on the right hand side of the chest.

    My grandmother had the same thing and her parents were told she wouldn't survive as a baby; she passed away a couple of years ago at the age of 85! I do recall mentioning Dr No's condition to her and she was quite amused.

    We're slightly off the topic here I know, but I couldn't resist mentioning it!
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Tokoloshe wrote: »
    In the novel he has his hands cut off by the Tongs. In the film the aforementioned line implies that it was radiation accident of some sort.

    In the novel he is also stabbed in the heart area, but survives because of his dextrocardia - an extremely rare condition in which the heart is on the right hand side of the chest.

    My grandmother had the same thing and her parents were told she wouldn't survive as a baby; she passed away a couple of years ago at the age of 85! I do recall mentioning Dr No's condition to her and she was quite amused.

    We're slightly off the topic here I know, but I couldn't resist mentioning it!

    Was he stabbed? I always thought he was shot, but there's a very good chance I've misremembered.
  • TokolosheTokoloshe Under your bed
    Posts: 2,667
    You're probably right.
  • andmcitandmcit
    Posts: 1,068
    Just to clarify the Bond timeline from SF to SP.

    M's office explodes thanks to Silva and Mi6 decamps to the dungeons under the Tower of London. Weeks not months? After all as soon as that happens Bond is off after Silva and ends up in the wilds of Scotland with a dead M. Another week or two?

    Cut to funeral and Mallory's plenty of work still to do. Week or two?

    Mexico City. 'You had no jurisdiction, None'. Fortnight, Month tops after M video lands in Bond's mailbox unless he's a bit slack fitting it in among other duties right?

    So how in God s name in the space of 2 maybe 3 months, is the Mi6 building in busy Central London evacuated, stripped down of all sensitive top secret and valuable equipment. Surveyed, condemned and then strategically weakened and bored for demolition.

    Must be the only department in government that doesn't take years just to agree on a colour for the logo for their new quango!?

    And all the while this glass phallic tower on the opposite embankment is Mi5 flicking their fingers at Mi6 and not even a throw away quip or mention! ;)
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    If only we had Dr. No on these boards. He seems to know about radioactivity....

    Well you say that but this line has always made me wonder:

    'My work has given me a unique knowledge of radioactivity,but not without cost, as you see.'

    He then raises his hand as if to say that his radioactivity work was the reason his hands were cut off not the Tongs.

    And Bond and Honey needed only to take a few showers to stop being radioactive. Bondoverse does not always work like ours.

    And tarantulas and black widows have deadly venoms too.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    A tarantula with radioactive venom!
  • JakeDisseltJakeDisselt
    Posts: 64
    andmcit wrote: »
    SF may have happened in 2006 but the interrogation tape where Vesper was compromised could've happened far earlier and was Quantum's hold over her until they decided when best to exploit it. The antique computer could be a sign of a very neurotic user who's afraid of being hacked and is using PC hardware architecture that cannot be scrutinised so easily which of course is what ESB is all about after all

    I suck with abbreviations so I assume SF means Skyfall. I doubt it happened in 2006 since Bond's phone directly states the date in Casino Royale as being around July, 2006 and there's apparently a five year gap between Skyfall and Quantum of Solace, the same amount of time that passes between the actual release of the films.


    http://sodablast.pl/trusts/faxbayo/monticello-ny-raceway-new-casino36265.jpg
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »

    And Bond and Honey needed only to take a few showers to stop being radioactive.

    Don't get me started again.

    That's totally feasible as they only have low level external contamination and high pressure showers are a tried and tested method of getting rid of this.

    Is it too much to expect everyone who posts on here to be in possession of a degree in nuclear physics?
  • WillyGaloreWillyGalore
    edited November 2015 Posts: 6,396
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    And Bond and Honey needed only to take a few showers to stop being radioactive.

    Don't get me started again.

    That's totally feasible as they only have low level external contamination and high pressure showers are a tried and tested method of getting rid of this.

    Is it too much to expect everyone who posts on here to be in possession of a degree in nuclear physics?

    Well, if it's good enough for Denise Richards.... ;)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    WillyGalore wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    And Bond and Honey needed only to take a few showers to stop being radioactive.

    Don't get me started again.

    That's totally feasible as they only have low level external contamination and high pressure showers are a tried and tested method of getting rid of this.

    Is it too much to expect everyone who posts on here to be in possession of a degree in nuclear physics?

    Well, if it's good enough for Denise Richards.... ;)

    Precisely. Good old Christmas would know exactly what I'm talking about.

    Perfect girl really - can hold her own in a debate about radioactive contamination and is in possession of, to quote Richie & Eddie, 'a wazzo pair of jugs'.
  • seshmeisterseshmeister
    Posts: 10
    Tokoloshe wrote: »
    In the novel he is also stabbed in the heart area, but survives because of his dextrocardia - an extremely rare condition in which the heart is on the right hand side of the chest.

    My grandmother had the same thing and her parents were told she wouldn't survive as a baby; she passed away a couple of years ago at the age of 85! I do recall mentioning Dr No's condition to her and she was quite amused.

    We're slightly off the topic here I know, but I couldn't resist mentioning it!

    It's quite rare but not insanely so - 1 in 12 000 people so around as common as Cystic Fibrosis which most people have heard of.
    It's often harmless like in the case of your grandmother.
  • andmcitandmcit
    Posts: 1,068
    andmcit wrote: »
    Just to clarify the Bond timeline from SF to SP.

    M's office explodes thanks to Silva and Mi6 decamps to the dungeons under the Tower of London. Weeks not months? After all as soon as that happens Bond is off after Silva and ends up in the wilds of Scotland with a dead M. Another week or two?

    Cut to funeral and Mallory's plenty of work still to do. Week or two?

    Mexico City. 'You had no jurisdiction, None'. Fortnight, Month tops after M video lands in Bond's mailbox unless he's a bit slack fitting it in among other duties right?

    So how in God s name in the space of 2 maybe 3 months, is the Mi6 building in busy Central London evacuated, stripped down of all sensitive top secret and valuable equipment. Surveyed, condemned and then strategically weakened and bored for demolition.

    Must be the only department in government that doesn't take years just to agree on a colour for the logo for their new quango!?

    And all the while this glass phallic tower on the opposite embankment is Mi5 flicking their fingers at Mi6 and not even a throw away quip or mention! ;)


    Any thoughts on the SF and SP timeline that could be caught out by themi6 building demolition? I can't believe it would take ages for Bond to pick out Sciara that sets the ball rolling for SP. Couldn't he have asked/referenced FelixL in the chat with MP too?

    Incidentally, did MP ever shoot / kill anybody as a double 0 agent before taking out friendly agents and then becoming desk bound? Haven't dwelled all that much on SF as I can't be bothered by the melodramatics of the washed out Bond which was so against the Bond I've spent my life watching.
  • seshmeisterseshmeister
    Posts: 10
    James Bond Radio raised another plot hole today - how could Q analysing the Spectre ring on his laptop possibly uncover the whole organisational structure of Quantum, Spectre, Oberhauser, White, LeChiffre etc?
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The only hole in Spectre is the gun barrel opening!!
  • LudovicoLudovico
    edited November 2015 Posts: 15,124
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    And Bond and Honey needed only to take a few showers to stop being radioactive.

    Don't get me started again.

    That's totally feasible as they only have low level external contamination and high pressure showers are a tried and tested method of getting rid of this.

    Is it too much to expect everyone who posts on here to be in possession of a degree in nuclear physics?

    Well, I am not an expert, but in any case DN is full of inaccuracies: the tarantula and black widows that are meant to have deadly poison, for instance. And Dr No having his hands destroyed by I guess nuclear explosion or something, but alive and well otherwise? Seems far fetched to me. But I buy it all the same.
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    Posts: 162
    OK, someone please tell me if I missed something.

    When Q is on the gondola and the scary henchman dudes look like they're about to throw down, then you have all the ski girls get on and they're on their way back to the top, how was this resolved? Was Q not followed when he finally got off? The next we see him is at the hotel, right?

    Just saw the film and this is driving me crazy!
  • SkyfallCraigSkyfallCraig Rome, Italy
    Posts: 630
    No, q was followed but he managed to enter into a mantainance door and make himself disappear. We see henchmen trying to locate him without succeed
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    Posts: 162
    SkyfallCraig wrote: »
    No, q was followed but he managed to enter into a mantainance door and make himself disappear. We see henchmen trying to locate him without succeed

    Wow, thank you. I don't know how I missed that.

  • EDDIEVHEDDIEVH
    Posts: 52
    Love the fact that of all the woeful plot holes in SP, the author of this thread mentions one I never thought of :)
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Love the fact that of all the woeful plot holes in SP, the author of this thread mentions one I never thought of :)

    You mean that thing that isn't a plothole?
  • joshdeese93joshdeese93
    Posts: 352
    Scaramanga12 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    What about the torture scene exactly?

    Blofeld claimed it would affect Bond a lot (can't remember exactly how)

    Are you sure Blofeld didn't use it on you? ;)
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    seshmeister wrote: »
    James Bond Radio raised another plot hole today - how could Q analysing the Spectre ring on his laptop possibly uncover the whole organisational structure of Quantum, Spectre, Oberhauser, White, LeChiffre etc?

    The same way Silva could plot out his ridiculous escape attempt from MI6 revolving around specific people being in a specific place at that specific moment - movie bulls**t. He connected the dots because the script said there were dots. Perhaps the movie is retconning the idea that members of Quantum, Le Chiffre, Silva and such all had SPECTRE rings, and they were discovered but somehow never connected afterward.

    This, honestly, is the only plot hole that bugs me.
  • seshmeisterseshmeister
    Posts: 10
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Love the fact that of all the woeful plot holes in SP, the author of this thread mentions one I never thought of :)

    Well why even mention the obvious ones, it's a James Bond movie? :)

  • seshmeisterseshmeister
    edited November 2015 Posts: 10
    Agent007391 wrote: »
    seshmeister wrote: »
    James Bond Radio raised another plot hole today - how could Q analysing the Spectre ring on his laptop possibly uncover the whole organisational structure of Quantum, Spectre, Oberhauser, White, LeChiffre etc?

    The same way Silva could plot out his ridiculous escape attempt from MI6 revolving around specific people being in a specific place at that specific moment - movie bulls**t. He connected the dots because the script said there were dots. Perhaps the movie is retconning the idea that members of Quantum, Le Chiffre, Silva and such all had SPECTRE rings, and they were discovered but somehow never connected afterward.

    This, honestly, is the only plot hole that bugs me.

    Well Mendez has actually given an explanation - it's on the Empire magazine podcast from about 29 minutes in. Apparently if you freeze frame it's there in the movie.



    Q does a scan of the ring and finds Iridium a rare element found in meteorites(extracted from the one at the incredibly explosive Blofeld lair?).

    He then cross references it with the autopsy reports (all those villains in the earlier films had been wearing the rings) and it was in their system.

    I'm still not clear how exactly that gets them to Oberhauser since he's still alive and hasn't been tested - maybe he's the only guy that they are all friends with on Facebook? Perhaps they know he has the meteorite from cross referencing his Ebay history?

    There are very strong hints that that the writers were told to retrospectively tie up all the previous DC movies as being connected to SPECTRE and I guess this is the best they could come up with.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    And Bond and Honey needed only to take a few showers to stop being radioactive.

    Don't get me started again.

    That's totally feasible as they only have low level external contamination and high pressure showers are a tried and tested method of getting rid of this.

    Is it too much to expect everyone who posts on here to be in possession of a degree in nuclear physics?

    Classic post
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited November 2015 Posts: 2,138
    andmcit wrote: »
    andmcit wrote: »
    Just to clarify the Bond timeline from SF to SP.

    M's office explodes thanks to Silva and Mi6 decamps to the dungeons under the Tower of London. Weeks not months? After all as soon as that happens Bond is off after Silva and ends up in the wilds of Scotland with a dead M. Another week or two?

    Cut to funeral and Mallory's plenty of work still to do. Week or two?

    Mexico City. 'You had no jurisdiction, None'. Fortnight, Month tops after M video lands in Bond's mailbox unless he's a bit slack fitting it in among other duties right?

    So how in God s name in the space of 2 maybe 3 months, is the Mi6 building in busy Central London evacuated, stripped down of all sensitive top secret and valuable equipment. Surveyed, condemned and then strategically weakened and bored for demolition.

    Must be the only department in government that doesn't take years just to agree on a colour for the logo for their new quango!?

    And all the while this glass phallic tower on the opposite embankment is Mi5 flicking their fingers at Mi6 and not even a throw away quip or mention! ;)


    Any thoughts on the SF and SP timeline that could be caught out by themi6 building demolition? I can't believe it would take ages for Bond to pick out Sciara that sets the ball rolling for SP. Couldn't he have asked/referenced FelixL in the chat with MP too?

    Incidentally, did MP ever shoot / kill anybody as a double 0 agent before taking out friendly agents and then becoming desk bound? Haven't dwelled all that much on SF as I can't be bothered by the melodramatics of the washed out Bond which was so against the Bond I've spent my life watching.

    Moneypenny says to Bond, "you've been working on this all that time" you would there for suspect that it has taken a while to locate Sciarra. With him being a Spectre agent it's likely his movement's have been protected or he has been hiding in rural Mexico.

    I don't believe MP was a "00" I think she was a field support agent. No I don't believe she killed anyone, I think the point of the top of train riffle scene is that MP has never had to pick up a gun outside of a range, however the situation calls for action and her nerves and uncertainty add to the drama of will she hit Bond or her target.
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