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SPECTRE - Press reviews and personal reviews (BEWARE! Spoiler reviews allowed)

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  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    @Tuck91, he literally said that he was "the author of all your pain," and that whenever Bond interfered in his operations, he killed somebody important to him. And do you mean that SF would have been better with the foster brother plot instead of the one we got with M?
  • boldfingerboldfinger
    Posts: 5,767
    Soundofthesinners wrote: »
    JWESTBROOK wrote: »
    Where were these logic-obsessed critics when Skyfall was released? At least SPECTRE as a plot that doesn't rely SOLELY on convenience. Blofeld has a plan outside of Bond and M. this time that doesn't require his capture or the stupidity of Q. or deftness of Tanner at the briefing or A FLASHLIGHT IN A CHURCH.

    It seems to me that those who enjoyed (the handicapped) Skyfall do not enjoy SPECTRE, and those who didn't enjoy Skyfall so much (I didn't like it, myself) enjoy SPECTRE.

    The difference? Skyfall is trying too hard, SPECTRE is a return to form. People seem to have forgotten the first 20 films of this franchise.

    The other difference is that Skyfall actually bothers to build up its characters and their motivations, so that we can invest in the movie, while SPECTRE just throws plot point after plot point at us and hopes we get invested.

    Compare Silva's story to Blofeld's: Silva was sold out by M after years of being her favorite agent and was subjected to horrible torture at the Chinese and even survived a suicide attempt. We then see his plot for revenge play out step by step, and his motivations are both sensible and sympathetic. Blofeld, on the other hand, was mad his dad liked Bond better, and so he murdered him and decided to embark on a nine-year plot to make Bond miserable by manipulating events in some vague, undefined fashion, including the supposedly independent Silva.

    Or compare the way the movies develop their respective themes about the relevance of MI6. Again, in Skyfall we see the problems with the old ways: Bond gets shot by accident, MI6 is bombed by cyber-terrorists and when Bond returns, he's a physical wreck and barely functioning. Add this to the leak of the secret agents and their subsequent execution, the case for old-fashioned espionage's obsolescence is clear. And again, the movie bothers to pay off this suspicion, as M is hauled before the parliamentary committee and gets a chance to defend their practices in stirring fashion.

    In SPECTRE, we get an immediate retread of this ground, in direct defiance of the end of Skyfall, only this time, we get platitudes spouted by Denbigh and M instead of actual development, the mysterious Nine Eyes system that's never actually explained, and a brief reference to a terrorist attack in South Africa. We never get to find out anything about the South Africans' motivation or the terrorist attack, we're just told it happened. Denbigh, of course, ends up eeeeeeevvvviiiillll, because what else would he be, and we're left with a final countdown whose effects are ambiguous at best and totally incoherent at worst.

    Skyfall also doesn't feel the need to pour its entire dramatic weight into a twist that's both completely telegraphed and completely meaningless to the actual characters involved.

    So, while Skyfall's plot can be weak and it's certainly a confusing movie at times, it has an actual story that it commits to telling. That's why I'll always be more forgiving of its faults than the amorphous mass that calls itself SPECTRE.
    Interesting observations!

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    JWESTBROOK wrote: »
    Where were these logic-obsessed critics when Skyfall was released? At least SPECTRE as a plot that doesn't rely SOLELY on convenience. Blofeld has a plan outside of Bond and M. this time that doesn't require his capture or the stupidity of Q. or deftness of Tanner at the briefing or A FLASHLIGHT IN A CHURCH.

    It seems to me that those who enjoyed (the handicapped) Skyfall do not enjoy SPECTRE, and those who didn't enjoy Skyfall so much (I didn't like it, myself) enjoy SPECTRE.

    The difference? Skyfall is trying too hard, SPECTRE is a return to form. People seem to have forgotten the first 20 films of this franchise.

    =D>

    ^:)^

    :-bd

    :)>-
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    chrisisall wrote: »
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    JWESTBROOK wrote: »
    Where were these logic-obsessed critics when Skyfall was released? At least SPECTRE as a plot that doesn't rely SOLELY on convenience. Blofeld has a plan outside of Bond and M. this time that doesn't require his capture or the stupidity of Q. or deftness of Tanner at the briefing or A FLASHLIGHT IN A CHURCH.

    It seems to me that those who enjoyed (the handicapped) Skyfall do not enjoy SPECTRE, and those who didn't enjoy Skyfall so much (I didn't like it, myself) enjoy SPECTRE.

    The difference? Skyfall is trying too hard, SPECTRE is a return to form. People seem to have forgotten the first 20 films of this franchise.

    =D>

    ^:)^

    :-bd

    :)>-

    *stands up, continues slow clap*
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    I'm probably one of the only ones on the forum who very much enjoys both.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    jake24 wrote: »
    I'm probably one of the only ones on the forum who very much enjoys both.
    I don't think so. Do the stats really show that? It's top 10 or thereabouts for a lot of people, myself included, along with SF. I prefer SF, but SP isn't bad at all. It just could have been a lot better imho. That's what I find a bit frustrating. I thought the characters and linkages could have been better developed (Mendes style) but then we'd have a 3 hr movie.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    jake24 wrote: »
    I'm probably one of the only ones on the forum who very much enjoys both.

    I stand with you. I liked them both.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2015 Posts: 17,804
    TripAces wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    I'm probably one of the only ones on the forum who very much enjoys both.

    I stand with you. I liked them both.
    While I might never like SF as much as Dan's other Bonds, because of SP at least I don't have it as far down in my ranking anymore.
    :D
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited November 2015 Posts: 6,304
    My personal history with Bond started with late Moore (OP). I was truly excited by the changes that Dalton and Brosnan promised, but I was ultimately let down by both.

    One of the many reasons why I love CR is that it gave us a stripped-down Bond: a moderate amount of M, no Moneypenny, no Q.

    I have issues with SF, the main one being that we didn't need the Q and Moneypenny reintroductions, not necessarily. Mendes backtracked in a way that Campbell and Forster did not. SP continued Mendes' trend of relying on past tropes, squandering the exciting future for Bond that CR laid out.

    Despite his "fanboy" status, I'm not sure that Mendes has ever "gotten" Bond, not in the way that Campbell did. If Craig does one more Bond, I really hope Campbell does too.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @bondjames
    @jake24
    @TripAces

    21 out of 49 rankings have SF and SP in their Top 10.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »

    21 out of 49 rankings have SF and SP in their Top 10.
    Can you break that down further?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Thanks @BondJasonBond006. It will be interesting to see where they lie after a few months have passed (after the blu ray release).

    I agree @echo. I don't think Mendes is quite as confident in the 'Bond world' as Campbell. Even Forster probably got the general idea down better.....he just had a nutter doing the editing imho.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    My current Craig Bond rankings (in case anyone cares):
    SP 9/10
    QOS 7/10
    CR 7/10
    SF 5/10
  • mepal1mepal1
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,098
    My current Craig Bond rankings (in case anyone cares):
    CR 9/10
    SF 8/10
    SP 8/10
    QOS 4/10 ....... film was ruined by Forster and his editors by acting like deranged baboons in the editing booth.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited November 2015 Posts: 9,020
    chrisisall wrote: »
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »

    21 out of 49 rankings have SF and SP in their Top 10.
    Can you break that down further?

    From 49 rankings:

    SF is No 1 once, SP is No 1 three times.
    SF and SP are No 2 three times each.
    SF is No 3 five times, SP is No 3 once.
    SF is No 4 twice, SP is No 4 five times.
    SF and SP are No 5 five times each.

    SF is 16 times in the Top 5.
    SP is 17 times in the Top 5.

    Wanna know anything else? :))

    As soon as there are 50 full rankings (24 EON movies) I'll do a detailed chart for all 24 movies :)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    SF is No 1 once, SP is No 1 three times.

    SF is 16 times in the Top 5.
    SP is 17 times in the Top 5.

    Wanna know anything else? :))
    Nope. Just wanted to know if good sense wins out.... I'm happy. \m/
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    SF 10/10
    CR 9.5/10
    SP 8/10
    QOS 7/10
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    chrisisall wrote: »
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    SF is No 1 once, SP is No 1 three times.

    SF is 16 times in the Top 5.
    SP is 17 times in the Top 5.

    Wanna know anything else? :))
    Nope. Just wanted to know if good sense wins out.... I'm happy. \m/

    :)) If you're happy, I'm happy.

    QOS by the way is exactly
    once
    in the Top 5 in those 49 rankings!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    It's sad to hear about QoS. Very underrated imho.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's sad to hear about QoS. Very underrated imho.
    Not by ME, and I'm the only critic I need to tell me what to enjoy!
    :))
  • JWESTBROOKJWESTBROOK
    Posts: 5,745
    For me,

    CR 9/10 -- 1/24
    SP 8/10 ~~ 13/24
    SF 6/10 -- 15/24
    QoS 5/10 -- 17/24
  • JWESTBROOKJWESTBROOK
    edited November 2015 Posts: 5,745
    I'll have to reconsider the list of 24, but thereabouts.

    (this was a double post on accident, edited for substance)
  • mepal1mepal1
    Posts: 1,098
    Even Martin Campbell said 'QOS' was a 'lousy' film. Mind you its his fault as well, for not taking on 'QOS' and finishing off what he had started off with in 'CR'.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Even Martin Campbell said 'QOS' was a 'lousy' film. Mind you its his fault as well, for not taking on 'QOS' and finishing off what he had started off with in 'CR'.
    That would have had the directorial continuity needed IMHO.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    chrisisall wrote: »
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Even Martin Campbell said 'QOS' was a 'lousy' film. Mind you its his fault as well, for not taking on 'QOS' and finishing off what he had started off with in 'CR'.
    That would have had the directorial continuity needed IMHO.

    The thought alone is giving me a boner :D
    QOS by Martin Campbell would have made it a Top 5 movie at least!
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Even Martin Campbell said 'QOS' was a 'lousy' film. Mind you its his fault as well, for not taking on 'QOS' and finishing off what he had started off with in 'CR'.

    While I admire and love the man's work in the series, I couldn't care less what Campbell's opinion is on QoS. I love it and that's all I need.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    The thought alone is giving me a boner :D
    I'll file that under "too much information."
    ;)
  • mepal1mepal1
    Posts: 1,098
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Even Martin Campbell said 'QOS' was a 'lousy' film. Mind you its his fault as well, for not taking on 'QOS' and finishing off what he had started off with in 'CR'.
    That would have had the directorial continuity needed IMHO.

    The thought alone is giving me a boner :D
    QOS by Martin Campbell would have made it a Top 5 movie at least!

    .......well at least the action scenes would of been more coherent, and the rest of the film would of been played out at a slightly slower pace, so the audience could absorb the story, and get more into the film!

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I think I'm going to watch QoS tomorrow on blu. Then I'll catch SP later this week one last time in the theatre. They sort of go together imho, with the White reference and all.

    I wonder if I'll look at him and the film differently now, given I know the associations with SPECTRE.

    PS: QoS is a phenomenally beautiful film on blu ray. All the colours just pop...
  • lalala2004lalala2004
    edited November 2015 Posts: 162
    So I watched FRWL tonight, and I'm now even more frustrated with the way they have portrayed Blofeld in SP. He was this mysterious figure, pulling the strings on all of these schemes, playing different countries off of each other, and you don't see his face! He's credited with a "?" for goodness sake! When he's revealed later on, it's such a huge moment!

    All of a sudden "Oh, Blofeld has been behind everything the whole time" in SP doesn't work for me. I know why there's no evidence otherwise, but why aren't they taking the time to build suspense now? It's such a waste...
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