Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • MyNameIsMyBondRnMyNameIsMyBondRn WhereYouLeastExpectMeToBe
    Posts: 221
    Intuitive improvisation is the secret of genius-mind You!
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    TMWTGG is maybe the most frustrating Bond movie ever made, but I think Moore's performance in it is excellent, partially because he is still finding his feet and channeling Connery.

    I'm surprised so many feel this way. Don't we prefer the actors to give their own take on the role? I prefer to watch Roger Moore doing what he's best at, playing his Bond, rather than the sub par Connery impression he does in certain scenes of TMWTGG (interrogating Anders being the worst offender). Isn't the whole reason that Brosnan gets so much stick on here because he was too similar to his predecessors?
    Only speaking for myself, I didn't see it so much as a sub par Connery impression but rather as Moore 'playing James Bond'.

    His TMWTGG characterization is on occasion (Lazar, Anders, Goodnight) tougher and more of a b@$t@rd than anything Connery did, while still retaining Moore's trademark smooth humour & charm. I'd liken it, ironically, more to Brosnan's Andy Osnard from TOP, but the latter is a little 'over the edge' in comparison to Bond.

    It's a very difficult thing to pull off, and I think Moore did it admirably, but in a different way to Connery.

    I think EON were wrong to back away from this approach. I don't think that was why TMWTGG didn't do as well. Rather, I believe it was more the hurried & sparse script, which really isn't all that.

    Jeez - Connery choked a woman with their own bikini top in DAF, threatened to break a woman's arm in Dr No and in the same film shot a fatally wounded man in the back. Seems harsher than Moore was in MWTGG.
    Fair enough, but that doesn't mean that Moore was channeling Connery. Rather, he was playing James Bond, as was Connery. Moore's treatment of Goodnight and Anders seemed more callous to me than Connery because one almost expects that from Sean's Bond, while with Moore it appeared to be to be something his Bond was doing because of his mission focus, as opposed to something inherent in the character. A slightly different interpretation.

    -A Mission Focus does not explain everything; especially in the wake of all the things that was going on at the same time. ..!
    Well, if I had the world's #1 hitman after me, a faceless assassin no less, I'd also probably be a little edgy and less concerned with pleasantries.

    The thing is, the writers have to find a way to portray Bond as a credible character in his role that highlights the actor's skills. I think Moore is the strongest when he uses his charm and wit to find answers and to get what he wants. He is also perfect when he acts as a rather relaxed and mature Bond and not as an insecure rookie. Retrospectively, his rather violent approach in TMWTGG seems out of place. Especially since Andres is a very sympathetic and weak person who requires some help and is not even any threat to him. There does not seem to be any relavence for Moore to slap her at all.

    Another evidence that Moore's outing as Bond in TMWTGG is rather a reference to the Connery era is the fact that he exploits Andres bad situation to have sex with her. This is very unusual for Moore's Bond but not for Connery. Due to his charm, Moore however never needed to force a woman to have sex with him.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    GBF wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    TMWTGG is maybe the most frustrating Bond movie ever made, but I think Moore's performance in it is excellent, partially because he is still finding his feet and channeling Connery.

    I'm surprised so many feel this way. Don't we prefer the actors to give their own take on the role? I prefer to watch Roger Moore doing what he's best at, playing his Bond, rather than the sub par Connery impression he does in certain scenes of TMWTGG (interrogating Anders being the worst offender). Isn't the whole reason that Brosnan gets so much stick on here because he was too similar to his predecessors?
    Only speaking for myself, I didn't see it so much as a sub par Connery impression but rather as Moore 'playing James Bond'.

    His TMWTGG characterization is on occasion (Lazar, Anders, Goodnight) tougher and more of a b@$t@rd than anything Connery did, while still retaining Moore's trademark smooth humour & charm. I'd liken it, ironically, more to Brosnan's Andy Osnard from TOP, but the latter is a little 'over the edge' in comparison to Bond.

    It's a very difficult thing to pull off, and I think Moore did it admirably, but in a different way to Connery.

    I think EON were wrong to back away from this approach. I don't think that was why TMWTGG didn't do as well. Rather, I believe it was more the hurried & sparse script, which really isn't all that.

    Jeez - Connery choked a woman with their own bikini top in DAF, threatened to break a woman's arm in Dr No and in the same film shot a fatally wounded man in the back. Seems harsher than Moore was in MWTGG.
    Fair enough, but that doesn't mean that Moore was channeling Connery. Rather, he was playing James Bond, as was Connery. Moore's treatment of Goodnight and Anders seemed more callous to me than Connery because one almost expects that from Sean's Bond, while with Moore it appeared to be to be something his Bond was doing because of his mission focus, as opposed to something inherent in the character. A slightly different interpretation.

    -A Mission Focus does not explain everything; especially in the wake of all the things that was going on at the same time. ..!
    Well, if I had the world's #1 hitman after me, a faceless assassin no less, I'd also probably be a little edgy and less concerned with pleasantries.

    The thing is, the writers have to find a way to portray Bond as a credible character in his role that highlights the actor's skills. I think Moore is the strongest when he uses his charm and wit to find answers and to get what he wants. He is also perfect when he acts as a rather relaxed and mature Bond and not as an insecure rookie. Retrospectively, his rather violent approach in TMWTGG seems out of place. Especially since Andres is a very sympathetic and weak person who requires some help and is not even any threat to him. There does not seem to be any relavence for Moore to slap her at all.

    Another evidence that Moore's outing as Bond in TMWTGG is rather a reference to the Connery era is the fact that he exploits Andres bad situation to have sex with her. This is very unusual for Moore's Bond but not for Connery. Due to his charm, Moore however never needed to force a woman to have sex with him.
    I don't disagree with you. However, I still think that Moore was playing 'James Bond' in TMWTGG, and I quite liked the contradiction between the actor's natural smooth charm and his character's need to be tough to extract information quickly. At the time he had no idea that she was the one who sent him the bullet.

    The same goes for his dismissiveness of Goodnight's advances - he know's he's got her anytime he wants, so why play along? I especially loved her momentary hard to get act in Thailand, which threw him.

    Definitely though, the producers have to play to an actor's strengths. On that I agree and perhaps in the long run, the way Moore's Bond developed was best for him in the role.
  • Posts: 15,124
    To an actor's strength but not necessarily to an actor's comfort zone. Moore after TMWTGG is very much comfortable but Bond is kind of lost in Moore. He might still be finding his feet in Gun but he makes for a more genuine Bond.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bondjames wrote: »
    If I had a choice, I'd much prefer Bond to do the slapping to being slapped himself, which happened all too often to Pierce during the liberated 90's.

    Fleming let Bond be slapped.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Fleming liked a bit of Spanking, too ;)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    If I had a choice, I'd much prefer Bond to do the slapping to being slapped himself, which happened all too often to Pierce during the liberated 90's.

    Fleming let Bond be slapped.
    Which is fine, but on film I believe it depends on the actor and the context. Some (the more machismo ones like the current incumbent for instance) can pull it off better in my view.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Robert Brown's M scene at The Hemingway House in LTK is stronger than any one scene that Judi Dench gave us as the character (though I certainly do love her interpretation) and better than anything Bernard Lee gave us post-OHMSS.
    Surely the beancounter/accountant intro scene in GE runs it close. Judi's best in a long run as M was, ironically, her first.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    That LTK scene is definitely an excellent one. Quite tense and well acted by Brown.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    If I had a choice, I'd much prefer Bond to do the slapping to being slapped himself, which happened all too often to Pierce during the liberated 90's.

    Fleming let Bond be slapped.

    Le Chiffre sort of did? Twice.
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Robert Brown's M scene at The Hemingway House in LTK is stronger than any one scene that Judi Dench gave us as the character (though I certainly do love her interpretation) and better than anything Bernard Lee gave us post-OHMSS.

    But... 'relic of the cold war,' 'it seems you've become useful again,' 'blunt instrument,' and 'Tennyson'...
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    Speaking of Judi Dench she is my favorite M and i liked a little more with Brosnan than Craig.
    Loved her chat with Bond when he was useful again in Die another Day.

    I actually i loved all their moments together in that film, especially at the end where right in front of the American guy she supported Bond and quite admited in his face she truted him.

    Right in front of Bond she quite admited he is right.

    I also liked their talk about Elektra's kidnapping and accepting the mission he asked for.
    Actually i prefer more the latter relationship between Bond and M in Die another day and The world is not enough than the one in goldeneye.

  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    Though Dench has grown on me over the years. I have to agree with @Birdleson here, brilliant scene.

    Brown has always been a bit overlooked of you ask me.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Szonana wrote: »
    Loved her chat with Bond when he was useful again in Die another Day.

    It's interesting because they have a very similar conversation in skyfall. He even had an evaluation in both movies. She even says "what do you expect a (bloody) apology" in both.

  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    Szonana wrote: »
    Speaking of Judi Dench she is my favorite M and i liked a little more with Brosnan than Craig.
    Loved her chat with Bond when he was useful again in Die another Day.

    I actually i loved all their moments together in that film, especially at the end where right in front of the American guy she supported Bond and quite admited in his face she truted him.

    Right in front of Bond she quite admited he is right.

    I also liked their talk about Elektra's kidnapping and accepting the mission he asked for.
    Actually i prefer more the latter relationship between Bond and M in Die another day and The world is not enough than the one in goldeneye.

    I agree, I also like her more in the Brosnan films, especially Golden Eye. They had great chemistry together. The problem I have with her is that because of her fame she was a bit to much in the focus in her later films. I also did not like all her globetrotting which seems rather stupid for such a prominent person (especially in QoS).
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    w2bond wrote: »
    Szonana wrote: »
    Loved her chat with Bond when he was useful again in Die another Day.

    It's interesting because they have a very similar conversation in skyfall. He even had an evaluation in both movies. She even says "what do you expect a (bloody) apology" in both.

    So true. It was very similar and it's funny how she answered both times if they were expecting an apology but I felt Brosnan at the end understood her a little more.
    He was a more mature his Bond who knew better her position and I felt he respected her more.



  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Shame the film (DAD) was rubbish (in comparison) though.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Here's something that might be controversial: I find Boris to be rather sinister as a villain.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's something that might be controversial: I find Boris to be rather sinister as a villain.

    Perhaps...never thought of him that way as he was mostly played for laughs
  • Posts: 15,124
    w2bond wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's something that might be controversial: I find Boris to be rather sinister as a villain.

    Perhaps...never thought of him that way as he was mostly played for laughs

    That's what I find creepy. His sex jokes to Natalya, that moment when she gives herself away not thinking he's a mole... Just creepy.
  • Posts: 50
    I thoroughly enjoy DAF. Yes it's camp, yes Sean looks like a poor lookalike, yes Jill St John is just ....what? But I can't help but enjoy the movie every time I watch it.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Ludovico, I think what makes Boris work is why I like Greene a lot too. They're both very hair-trigger types of men who can be set off into a frenzy at any minute because they are so prideful and caught up in what people perceive of them. Boris feels the need to impress his betters and has a playful rivalry with Natalya that can turn nasty quickly when she bites back. The same is seen with Greene when he feels inferior or made the fool, as with the geologist he has killed or his mother's piano student, who he killed when she ridiculed him in private. Add to that the violent anger he feels when questioned and prodded by Camille or when Bond foils his work in the hotel, causing him to grab an axe and wail a shrill battle cry, and Greene's hair-trigger is on full display.

    Neither man cuts a very imposing figure, but the fact that they're quick to vehement anger does add a sense of tension and danger when they're on screen.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2016 Posts: 15,718
    They're both very hair-trigger types of men who can be set off into a frenzy at any minute

    The same reason why I love Nicolas Cage. You never know what to expect with him, he can suddenly change the tone of his voice/start screaming or make silly faces. Hugely entertaining actor, as are the characters of Greene and Boris.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    WaltherPPK wrote: »
    I thoroughly enjoy DAF. Yes it's camp, yes Sean looks like a poor lookalike, yes Jill St John is just ....what? But I can't help but enjoy the movie every time I watch it.

    Its as if the filmmakers were saying " we're gonna have some fun with this, why don't you join us?"
  • Posts: 15,124
    And the fact that Boris is a nerd just makes it more unsettling.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And the fact that Boris is a nerd just makes it more unsettling.

    He noes dem computez :-SS
  • KaijuDirectorOO7KaijuDirectorOO7 Once Upon a Time Somewhere...
    Posts: 189
    WaltherPPK wrote: »
    I thoroughly enjoy DAF. Yes it's camp, yes Sean looks like a poor lookalike, yes Jill St John is just ....what? But I can't help but enjoy the movie every time I watch it.

    Same here, but for me it basically sits at the top of the pile.

  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Here's another one. Upon my latest rewatch, I find that TWINE is quite possibly one of the most visually distinctive Bond films.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    It is illogical to defend the Moore films while bashing the Brosnan films. Both eras are corny products of their corny time periods, and both were primarily focused on fun. The focus of the fun in Moore's era was humor, and the focus of Brosnan's fun was action, but the purpose of both was escapist fun. The 90's were more recent, so we look on those films with more of a perspective of "What were we thinking?" As more time passes, I believe we will come to view the Brosnan films the same way we do the Moore films; as incredibly dated, flawed, but fun, products of their time.

    While the Brosnan era gave us an invisible Aston Martin, the Moore era gave us a submarine Lotus.

    Brosnan had Denise Richards as a nuclear physicist, and Moore had a Voodoo sorcerer.

    Brosnan had Graves in his Robo-cop suit, and Moore had an assassin with a carnival fun-house style labyrinth.

    The two eras are not that different.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    They are very different to me.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    They are very different to me.
    Me too.

    For me, most of the Moore films are well executed formula, just like GE is well executed formula. I enjoy them all, but find MR & AVTAK highly derivative.

    Post-GE, I find the Brosnan entries to be cliche'd pastiche. Just going through the motions (Bond, James Bond - check, flashing the Omega - check, ordering the Martini - check, fancy car - check, villain with deformity or funny name - check, smart alec throwaway line - check, etc etc.).

    It's a fine line between executing on the formula well and being overly predictable. I don't think EON has made a decent 'formula' film since GE, and that was the last one made when Cubby was around.
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