No Time To Die: Production Diary

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    GetCarter wrote: »
    Yes, a plot-driven romp with plenty of swagger and elegance in the vein of TB or TSWLM would go down a treat.
    I'm 100% on board with that. Once they recast.

    With Craig back, I'd rather they finish his character arc off (even if it doesn't involve Brofeld) and then give us something classic for the 60th anniversary.
  • Posts: 3,333
    I don't see the point in revealing Blofeld only to go the FRWL/TB route. It worked there because we hadn't seen Blofeld. There's no mystery now we know it's Franz Obenhauser, Bond's long lost brotherIknownotreallybuthebasicallywas.
    Far be it for me to write or even suggest how the writers approach this angle, but it could be that after Blofeld escapes from his incarceration, he wants to keep such a low profile to the extent that not even his new employees know who they're actually working for; hence the Howard Hughes type subterfuge and cloak of invisibility. Then the next time we see Blofeld in the flesh, so to speak, it's in a future movie with a new Bond plus a new Blofeld. Vola!!
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited October 2017 Posts: 7,021
    bondjames wrote: »
    Assuming that Waltz is telling the truth (and this is far from certain given the pathetic 'I'm not playing Moneypenny/Blofeld' denials that EON seem to think is some sort of Machiavellian obfuscation that no audience member can see through) then you really have to wonder what the hell EON are playing at.

    Epic clusterf-bomb doesn't even come close to describing their overall strategy for the Craig era.

    Let's just dial back a decade to the end of 06. CR and DC had smashed it out of the park and was a critical and commercial hit. The world, to quote Arthur Daley, was their lobster.

    So what did they do next? For better or worse they decided to make a direct sequel. They couldn't use SPECTRE at this stage as they didn't own the rights so they created Quantum, largely it seems to make a feeble link to the title (despite the title being nonsensical in the context of the terrorist organisation), as a proto SPECTRE but given they had no way of knowing when McClory would die you have to assume they did it with the idea of building up to something in the next film.

    OK they were hamstrung by the writer's strike (perhaps we could say this is truly the author of all the subsequent pain?) so things probably didn't pan out quite how they wanted but nonetheless when QOS was a critical failure they immediately tossed the whole idea overboard and went back to square one with SF which was just a solid standalone entry. Their total abandonment of the Quantum organisation in SF suggests that they felt it was going nowhere box office wise and the continuity wasn't an important thing to pursue.

    Then came the success of SF which I think they erroneously considered was entirely down to Mendes whereas it was more of a perfect storm of the Olympics, Adele, the 50th and a pretty solid entry of a film. The problem was Mendes said he was done so how to tempt him back? Well by a stroke of luck the SPECTRE rights issue was suddenly solved and they could offer Mendes rebooting Blofeld and, as Sam is all about character arcs, the rest is history.

    But now, if Waltz is to be believed (and I stress 'if') after the shambles of SP they have flip flopped again and decided to forget Blofeld, SPECTRE and continuity.

    So we have:
    CR - Standalone
    QOS - Connected
    SF - No one remembers Quantum let's just go back to standalone.
    SP - No actually hang on people are desperate to know who was behind Le Chiffre and Greene nearly 10 years ago so it really is all connected. Plus we've got a killer twist with Blofeld and Bond's past!
    B25 - Well we really cocked that connected thing up so let's just pretend it never happened and go with a bog standard mission. Yeah Bond's alleged nemesis and is just going to rot in prison. Isn't that definitive enough closure for you?

    They really haven't got a clue what they are doing on a scale only witnessed previously in the Liverpool back line defending a corner.

    If you look at Marvel (I'm only using them as an example of planning and organisation - I certainly don't want us to end up with a sausage factory churning out uninspiring and increasingly repetitive sequels) they wrote down a strategy for the continuity and how it would all connect up and then they executed it.

    Can't say I'm really that bothered either way about the continuity thing, Fleming and Cubby never particularly made any effort to do it, but if you are going to start it at least a) plan it carefully and b) don't suddenly abandon it halfway through.

    Can't help thinking they badgered Craig into signing on again just so they had a better bargaining position in the distribution negotiations without any real plan of where to go next. If you're not going to continue the Craig continuity you've foisted on everyone then why not recast and start again?

    To pull a thing like this off they needed serious leadership and direction rather than handing over so much control to Craig and Mendes to decide according to their whims.

    Marvel have top talent like RDJ, Chris Evans, Scarlett Johannessen locked down on strict schedules for years in advance but Craig seems to think he can say he's a bit tired or needs a break and come back when he feels like it. Next guy they need to have a watertight contract: Initial 3 picture deal for B26 in 2022, B27 in 2025, B28 in 2028 with an option on B29 and B30 with pay rise if things are going well (but with release dates of 2032 and.2035 which are non negotiable).

    As Craig himself says in Layer Cake 'Have a plan and stick to it.'

    It's good advice because at the moment EON seem to getting corporate strategy advice from Farmyard Chicken (sans head) Associates.

    The notion of any other company that took in $2 billion over the last 5 years being run on the hoof from year to year like this is inconceivable.
    Sadly with only a prospective one picture deal in the works, I can only assume we will have to wait for MGM to get its house in order post-B25 before the next distributor insists on a longer term plan and vision. One which hopefully results in more regular product releases, narrative consistency, and a more eager lead.

    Well, I hope --perhaps naively-- it doesn't result in narrative consistency, only because I hope there is no overarching narrative! It allows you to do interesting things story-wise (which admittedly they didn't quite succeed with in the Craig era) but it's also a bit of a straightjacket. Surely they can go back to it with Bond #8.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    mattjoes wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Sadly with only a prospective one picture deal in the works, I can only assume we will have to wait for MGM to get its house in order post-B25 before the next distributor insists on a longer term plan and vision. One which hopefully results in more regular product releases, narrative consistency, and a more eager lead.

    Well, I hope --perhaps naively-- it doesn't result in narrative consistency, only because I hope there is no overarching narrative! It allows you to do interesting things story-wise (which admittedly they didn't quite succeed with in the Craig era) but it's also a bit of a straightjacket. Surely they can go back to it with Bond #8.
    I definitely agree with you. That would certainly be my preference and first choice as well.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 12,837
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Perhaps they were worried that Craig wouldn't do another film and wanted to rush things.

    That's definitely why they blew their load so quickly imo. Mendes said it was made with the possibility of it being Craig's last, there's all the nods to the past suggesting it's a finale, and the leaks suggest it was written with that in mind (the "hook" was apparently Bond's last mission, and in one draft he actually killed Blofeld on the bridge before driving off into the sunset with Madeline). They didn't know if Craig was sticking around or not but someone must have really wanted to do Blofeld/Spectre right away, so we got the retcon. They didn't know if they had time to do a Spectre arc, so they tried to turn the last three films into one instead.
  • Posts: 16,163
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Marvel have top talent like RDJ, Chris Evans, Scarlett Johannessen locked down on strict schedules for years in advance but Craig seems to think he can say he's a bit tired or needs a break and come back when he feels like it. Next guy they need to have a watertight contract: Initial 3 picture deal for B26 in 2022, B27 in 2025, B28 in 2028 with an option on B29 and B30 with pay rise if things are going well (but with release dates of 2032 and.2035 which are non negotiable).

    Agree with everything, but especially this. If Connery or Moore had wanted to wait two years before deciding to return I figure the producers would've laughed in their faces.

    Indeed. Cubby was all about just getting on with the next film, with or without Sean and Roger. Had Connery not decided to do DAF, we still would have had the film out in 1971 regardless. Same with OP, and all the others.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited October 2017 Posts: 4,585
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Marvel have top talent like RDJ, Chris Evans, Scarlett Johannessen locked down on strict schedules for years in advance but Craig seems to think he can say he's a bit tired or needs a break and come back when he feels like it. Next guy they need to have a watertight contract: Initial 3 picture deal for B26 in 2022, B27 in 2025, B28 in 2028 with an option on B29 and B30 with pay rise if things are going well (but with release dates of 2032 and.2035 which are non negotiable).

    Agree with everything, but especially this. If Connery or Moore had wanted to wait two years before deciding to return I figure the producers would've laughed in their faces.

    Indeed. Cubby was all about just getting on with the next film, with or without Sean and Roger. Had Connery not decided to do DAF, we still would have had the film out in 1971 regardless. Same with OP, and all the others.

    This is all apples-oranges comparisons.

    The Connery films (and much of Moore's), as well as the Marvel films, have source material to use as a foundation. Imagine if, in 2004/5, EON announced they were going back to the Fleming books and re-filming each, starting with CR. It would have been 100x easier to lock down DC, for film releases in 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, and 2014.

    And apologies in advance, @ToTheRight : I am not responding directly to your post, but the whole of the conversation that led to it.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 676
    Another option if Blofeld doesn't appear in B25: continue the story started in Spectre but give the organization a new leader. Blofeld is left to rot in prison, and Irma Bunt takes over. I would enjoy this, as it would allow a YOLT/garden of death adaptation, give us a new villain instead of Waltz Part 2, and also handily dispense with the foster brother nonsense.
    Hilarious! For those who haven't seen it:

    DNUHM1_NXUAARn_XZ.jpg
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    What I want now is a clean swan song for Craig. It can be done. Blofeld is locked away, SPECTRE was permenantly damaged and C's plan was flushed down the toilet. Why don't we allow Craig a modern GF or TB or even TSWLM?
    People have been asking for a GF/TSWLM type Craig Bond movie since 2008. It never happened, and I don't see any reason why it would now. It just doesn't fit the shape of his era. Admittedly they tried to do some fun, lighthearted stuff in SP, but they couldn't seem to shake all the usual Craig stuff (going rogue, arguing with M, internal politics at MI6, personal connection to villain, family drama, etc).
  • Eon, though, could turn to source material if it wanted to -- the continuation novels. It'd have to pay a bit more, but the authors (and Ian Fleming Publications) can't make a sale to anybody else. Whatever Eon would pay would be a fraction of expenditures for the star's salary, special effects, locations, etc.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    I'm beginning to wonder if Waltz's statement about a "new name" had to do with the director. Waltz's exit may mean that Villeneuve is on board and wants this to be his own film with no continuation of anything. (Or maybe this is simply wishful thinking on my part.)
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    Posts: 1,756
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Perhaps they were worried that Craig wouldn't do another film and wanted to rush things.

    That's definitely why they blew their load so quickly imo. Mendes said it was made with the possibility of it being Craig's last, there's all the nods to the past suggesting it's a finale, and the leaks suggest it was written with that in mind (the "hook" was apparently Bond's last mission, and in one draft he actually killed Blofeld on the bridge before driving off into the sunset with Madeline). They didn't know if Craig was sticking around or not but someone must have really wanted to do Blofeld/Spectre right away, so we got the retcon. They didn't know if they had time to do a Spectre arc, so they tried to turn the last three films into one instead.

    If that's the case, I've lost a lot of respect for Craig for not having a future vision for his Bond. But it seems like everyone can point fingers.
  • Posts: 676
    I think so too, just discussing possibilities (however remote).
  • Posts: 1,031
    2 things from that interview - he answered 'No' immediately and says something not very clear about that being the tradition and a 'a new name'. Suggests to me that Eon have spoken to him and told him that they're recasting Blofeld.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    TripAces wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Marvel have top talent like RDJ, Chris Evans, Scarlett Johannessen locked down on strict schedules for years in advance but Craig seems to think he can say he's a bit tired or needs a break and come back when he feels like it. Next guy they need to have a watertight contract: Initial 3 picture deal for B26 in 2022, B27 in 2025, B28 in 2028 with an option on B29 and B30 with pay rise if things are going well (but with release dates of 2032 and.2035 which are non negotiable).

    Agree with everything, but especially this. If Connery or Moore had wanted to wait two years before deciding to return I figure the producers would've laughed in their faces.

    Indeed. Cubby was all about just getting on with the next film, with or without Sean and Roger. Had Connery not decided to do DAF, we still would have had the film out in 1971 regardless. Same with OP, and all the others.

    This is all apples-oranges comparisons.

    The Connery films (and much of Moore's), as well as the Marvel films, have source material to use as a foundation. Imagine if, in 2004/5, EON announced they were going back to the Fleming books and re-filming each, starting with CR. It would have been 100x easier to lock down DC, for film releases in 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, and 2014.

    And apologies in advance, @ToTheRight : I am not responding directly to your post, but the whole of the conversation that led to it.

    A somewhat flawed argument since the amount of Fleming material from TMWTGG onwards was little more than 10-15% in any film and often less.

  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Milovy wrote: »
    Another option if Blofeld doesn't appear in B25: continue the story started in Spectre but give the organization a new leader. Blofeld is left to rot in prison, and Irma Bunt takes over. I would enjoy this, as it would allow a YOLT/garden of death adaptation, give us a new villain instead of Waltz Part 2, and also handily dispense with the foster brother nonsense.
    Hilarious! For those who haven't seen it:

    DNUHM1_NXUAARn_XZ.jpg
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    What I want now is a clean swan song for Craig. It can be done. Blofeld is locked away, SPECTRE was permenantly damaged and C's plan was flushed down the toilet. Why don't we allow Craig a modern GF or TB or even TSWLM?
    People have been asking for a GF/TSWLM type Craig Bond movie since 2008. It never happened, and I don't see any reason why it would now. It just doesn't fit the shape of his era. Admittedly they tried to do some fun, lighthearted stuff in SP, but they couldn't seem to shake all the usual Craig stuff (going rogue, personal connection to villain, family drama, etc).

    ah, thats an awesome idea, Im bang up for that, who should play irma?
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Milovy wrote: »
    Another option if Blofeld doesn't appear in B25: continue the story started in Spectre but give the organization a new leader. Blofeld is left to rot in prison, and Irma Bunt takes over. I would enjoy this, as it would allow a YOLT/garden of death adaptation, give us a new villain instead of Waltz Part 2, and also handily dispense with the foster brother nonsense.
    Hilarious! For those who haven't seen it:

    DNUHM1_NXUAARn_XZ.jpg
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    What I want now is a clean swan song for Craig. It can be done. Blofeld is locked away, SPECTRE was permenantly damaged and C's plan was flushed down the toilet. Why don't we allow Craig a modern GF or TB or even TSWLM?
    People have been asking for a GF/TSWLM type Craig Bond movie since 2008. It never happened, and I don't see any reason why it would now. It just doesn't fit the shape of his era. Admittedly they tried to do some fun, lighthearted stuff in SP, but they couldn't seem to shake all the usual Craig stuff (going rogue, personal connection to villain, family drama, etc).

    ah, thats an awesome idea, Im bang up for that, who should play irma?

    I hear Tilda Swinton was considered. I think I got her name right.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,791
    What's wrong with Brigitte Millar?
    imdb.com/name/nm2692312/mediaviewer/rm3107185152
  • Posts: 1,680
    Blofeld will not be recasted for Craigs finale, Waltz' Blofeld is in it or no Blofeld at all.
  • Posts: 386
    bondjames wrote: »
    GetCarter wrote: »
    Yes, a plot-driven romp with plenty of swagger and elegance in the vein of TB or TSWLM would go down a treat.
    I'm 100% on board with that. Once they recast.

    With Craig back, I'd rather they finish his character arc off (even if it doesn't involve Brofeld) and then give us something classic for the 60th anniversary.

    I know what you're saying @bondjames, but they've strangled themselves so much with the narrative thus far that a 'showdown' with Blofeld can only represent further diminishing returns.

    Looking back through the canon, there is absolutely no obligation to 'finish' the story. Besides, the audience won't give a toss, they just want to be entertained.

    I would go so far as to say that the only way we can get genuine inspiration and artistic flair happening with B25 is to jettison all of the Craig baggage and just let him strut.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I'm sorry-- Bond would be dead if John Gavin did DAF... and if he didn't do it, and Sean did; then Roger continued on in LALD until--

    Brolin in Octopussy???

    There would be no Dalton, no Brosnan, no Craig...

    Face it fellas, as much as you kick the shit out of Babs, Cubby made some seriously stupid decisions-- thank Dog that people walked him back off the ledge...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GetCarter wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    GetCarter wrote: »
    Yes, a plot-driven romp with plenty of swagger and elegance in the vein of TB or TSWLM would go down a treat.
    I'm 100% on board with that. Once they recast.

    With Craig back, I'd rather they finish his character arc off (even if it doesn't involve Brofeld) and then give us something classic for the 60th anniversary.

    I know what you're saying @bondjames, but they've strangled themselves so much with the narrative thus far that a 'showdown' with Blofeld can only represent further diminishing returns.

    Looking back through the canon, there is absolutely no obligation to 'finish' the story. Besides, the audience won't give a toss, they just want to be entertained.

    I would go so far as to say that the only way we can get genuine inspiration and artistic flair happening with B25 is to jettison all of the Craig baggage and just let him strut.
    @GetCarter, I hear you, believe me.

    I just don't find him credible trying to do smooth insouciant care free Bond, which is what he will have to do if they go down the TB/TSWLM route. It falls so flat for me when he tries it and takes me right out of the film. This is not a function of script because I felt that way when he tried to do it in SF as well. It's just not his shtick as far as I'm concerned. His 'strut' fails to impress this viewer.

    So even though I completely agree with you that this act has gotten quite tired, Babs has decided to keep him employed. So I think they should stick to what he's good at this time out. Even if it's not a continuation story, I'd prefer if they go gritty & fierce rather than light hearted.

    In all honesty, my biggest concern for B25 at this moment is that he is given excessive creative control to deliver his 'high'.
  • Posts: 386
    Fair enough @bondjames.

    I agree that Craig is more of a brooder, but I think you can build TSWLM around him.

    Remember Moore in that same movie. His performance was quite serious but the two seemingly disparate elements gelled very well.
  • //Face it fellas, as much as you kick the shit out of Babs, Cubby made some seriously stupid decisions-- thank Dog that people walked him back off the ledge...//

    re: Gavin, that was definitively David Picker, then at United Artists. There's a fan narrative that UA just signed checks and OK'd everything Broccoli & Saltzman did. But with Diamonds, UA got a lot more involved. Picker wanted Connery back and he got him.

    re: Brolin. You got me. I have no explanation on that one.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @GetCarter, just to explain, a lot of this is also look for me. Craig has always looked like a night club bouncer to me. Or a military man. Not Mr. Smooth. Not lean, tall and gracious. He was brought in to deliver a grittier take. He was and remains perfect casting for that type of Bond.

    Roger Moore he most certainly is not, and vice versa.

    Moore was indeed close to perfect in TSWLM. If Craig can deliver a performance even 2/3 as good as that (or Connery's in TB) in a B25 that emulates that tone, I'll be quite happy. Sadly, the evidence to date suggests I won't be impressed.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Craig is, of course, a less charming presence than Moore, but I think he can make the more overt, sillier humor work within his take on Bond by delivering it with a high dose of sarcasm and a sense of mild annoyance, as opposed to Moore, who would play the sarcasm but choose a more playful, lighthearted touch over any real sense of annoyance. I could see him working in something like Diamonds Are Forever, in terms of the rapport Bond has with Blofeld and the dry humor throughout. And DAF has that larger-than-life touch with the satellite and the lasers, so looking at it would perhaps be a way of studying how to insert Craig in a more adventuresque type of Bond film.

    Craig looks like Steve McQueen, and has a onscreen sense of humor that is reminiscent of McQueen's.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    He should stick to McQueen or "Craig" (and yes, the sarcastic & mildly annoyed approach works best for him, as he showed in CR & SF). He can certainly do humour, but it has to be well written and suited to his kind of Bond.

    Don't even try Connery in TB or DAF. It will only result in failure imho. Connery could scale up and down the curve with considerable ease. Unbeatable.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited October 2017 Posts: 15,423
    bondjames wrote: »
    Don't even try Connery in TB or DAF. It will only result in failure imho. Connery could scale up and down the curve with considerable ease. Unbeatable.
    I personally don't agree with that. If the writing is genius and well-structured, and scenes competently directed on point to what the script wants to portray, then I believe it can be easily pulled off. Craig wasn't the problem, in my opinion. The writing and directing departments were. I believe Craig can competently deliver that TB Connery humour.
  • Posts: 386
    Snap, @ClarkDevlin, was about to propose that Craig has been hamstrung by some very poor writing.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    GetCarter wrote: »
    Snap, @ClarkDevlin, was about to propose that Craig has been hamstrung by some very poor writing.
    Snap! :D
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Don't even try Connery in TB or DAF. It will only result in failure imho. Connery could scale up and down the curve with considerable ease. Unbeatable.
    I personally don't agree with that. If the writing is genius and well-structured, and scenes competently directed on point to what the script wants to portray, then I believe it can be easily pulled off. Craig wasn't the problem, in my opinion. The writing and directing departments were.
    We'll have to agree to disagree here. The writing was indeed abysmal but I thought Craig's performance was awful whenever he tried to channel traditional film Bond (which tended to be in the so called humorous moments or in scenes which evoked the past, e.g. with M, with Q, in the Aston etc.). I was most impressed with him, as I've noted before, at L'Americaine. That is where I saw Craig being the Craig Bond he had developed over the past decade. One of his better scenes was with that darn CGI mouse.

    Of course if the writing is 'genius' and the scenes competently directed then anyone can pull off anything. My humble advice though is just don't try to channel Connery or Moore and reject any writing that veers too closely or reminds the viewer of those two. That is where failure will occur. They are untouchable at what they did because they did it naturally. It was them as much as it was the script.
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