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Is the Double-Take Pigeon the silliest thing in Moore's era?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I cringe at some of the stuff in MR but it doesn't annoy me like the things in this.
    You're killin' me here!
    =))
  • ReneMathisReneMathis
    Posts: 165
    Jaws falling from the sky in MR & flapping his arms to circus music and the British Airways gag in the same film. Both treated the audience like morons.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited February 2015 Posts: 5,080
    ThomasCrown76 wrote: »
    It's an insult to Asians, women, and midgets. Yes, it's very dated. No, we can't pretend it's really a good movie. It is definite a low point of the series

    It's James Bond pre-PC era, what do you expect? Dr. No, Goldfinger, You Only Live Twice and OHMSS all have racist moments. You can put LALD in there, too.

    Women? Is this not James Bond we are talking about? Just about every early film has a "sexist scene" in it- "Dink, say goodbye to Felix, man talk" and all the rest of the Connery era bum slapping, you have bimbo Tiffany and her struggling to control a machine gun etc etc etc

    Midgets? Early Bond films do have a record of depicting people with disabilities in a questionable light- they all seem to be villains!

    Don't even get me started on the novels (you've read them, I should hope?)!

    TMWTGG is no different, and it does not detract from its charm. It's not my favourite Moore Bond, but I can still get a lot from it. It's good fun. So stop putting words in people's mouths with comments like this "no, we can't pretend it's really a good movie".
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I'd love to see what the LALD novel would look like edited for today's more PC audience :))
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2015 Posts: 11,189
    I can't quite put my finger on it but there's something quite mean spirited about a lot of the humour in GG. In GF for example the humour had a playfulness and the characters were not only in on the fun but intelligently portrayed. GG seems like its taking cheap shots much of the time and laughing at other people's expense.

    Combined with a overly bad tempered Bond and grumpy M and it all seems like an uneven shambles.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    TMWTGG is my favorite Bond film, and I am not ashamed of saying that. It's racist, it's sexist, it's all the dirty and mean things from a bygone era, but that's what I love about i : it's not PC. I was born in the 1990's but I wish I had lived through that era.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Goldfinger has a lot of the non PC stuff we love (you can't get anymore un-PC than a woman called "Pussy"). Yet few would argue that that is a far superior film.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited February 2015 Posts: 15,718
    I didn't say TMWTGG is the superior film of the whole franchise, merely that it is my favorite because it's the one that entertains me the most. And yes, imo GF, GE, CR, OHMSS, QOS, FYEO, OP, SF, TLD, TSWLM, TB, DN, FRWL are better made films than TMWTGG :)
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2015 Posts: 11,189
    That's fair enough :)

    I admit I do find MR entertaining despite it's utter stupidity.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Chosing TSWLM is MR is tought, because while the first one is more epic, well-made and far less-campy, the soundtrack of MR is so magnificient it elevates the film, and Moore is clearly having the time of his life so it's tough to hate a film where Rog is visibly enjoying himself.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I find TMWTGG exotic, particularly in HK & Macau. I love the cinematography too, as well as Moore's rougher take on the character (why he didn't do this more often I don't know......he's such a nice guy that when he plays it tougher like in this one, it's actually not as vicious as if another actor does it.....and so I think he gets away with it quite nicely).

    That combined with Barry's in your face score make it very entertaining for me.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2015 Posts: 11,189
    I just love the cinematography and soundtrack in MR. Story-wise it's daft beyond measure at times but it's an easy watch if you don't want to think much.

    I would chose Spy over it though as I think it feels more like a SPY adventure rather than simply attractive decoration (plus Moore is better in Spy).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    No doubt, MR is a beautiful film to look at, combined with Barry's majestic score. In those respects it's one of the best of the entire series.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    It's just a shame the lesser aspects get in the way.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    I watched MR on blu ray last week, what a gorgeous film. And you can't get more OTT than laser battle in space, but Barry seemed to have put all his knowledge and talent into it to make it epic.
  • boldfingerboldfinger
    Posts: 5,767
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'd love to see what the LALD novel would look like edited for today's more PC audience :))
    The MR novel features a villain who´s employees are almost all German engineers with a bald head and a moustache, and they all wear coveralls with numbers on the back. Now I myself am German, and I find Fleming´s description extremely clever and entertaining. The LALD novel does feature terms like negro or nigger, which are questionable. But apart from that, the depiction of the gangster organisation is nowhere near as racist as the above-quoted depiction of the German engineers. So I doubt a "PC" edit of LALD would have noticeable changes.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I do remember quite a long passage of LALD the novel when Bond is at a bar and overhears two men talking. All their dialogue is written phonetically. That seemed a little awkward when I was reading it. But it's true though that the description of Mr Big's crew is relitively mild (with the expecting of the phrase "Black apes" at one point).
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Some of stuff in the books and early films are no longer present for a reason. Seeing the hero hit a woman for instance or telling a black man to "fetch the shoes" aren't things I want to see more of in the world of Bond.

    Some of the attitudes were a product of Fleming's time, and they should stay that way. He said women should "stay with their pots and pans" rather than being out in the field. Now, I don't necessarily wish for a "Bond equal" in every film, but that sort of attitude CAN'T exist from the protagonist in today's world. It's outdated.
  • boldfingerboldfinger
    Posts: 5,767
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Hate the PC stuff. The world Bond springs from is one of "sexism" and "racism" by today's standard. Both in his literary roots and in the films. If one has a problem with that than maybe this isn't the character for you. I for one don't want to lose that aspect of the character or his world.
    Well said.

    Fleming was very good at creating cliches in order to antagonize the images of the respective parties. I wouldn´t necessarily call that racist.



    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Some of the attitudes were a product of Fleming's time, and they should stay that way. He said women should "stay with their pots and pans" rather than being out in the field.
    It was not Fleming who said that, but Bond. Having a protagonist think or say something is not the same as expressing one´s own attitude or opinion.
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Now, I don't necessarily wish for a "Bond equal" in every film, but that sort of attitude CAN'T exist from the protagonist in today's world. It's outdated.
    Of course it CAN exist in today´s world. It would underline the fact that Bond is not a hero on every level. Studios won´t have it for that reason.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2015 Posts: 11,189
    But wasn't Bond a sexed up version OF Fleming or at least someone Fleming looked up to for his courage and bravery? I'm not entirely convinced that Fleming wasn't projecting a bit of his own thoughts there.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Hate the PC stuff. The world Bond springs from is one of "sexism" and "racism" by today's standard. Both in his literary roots and in the films. If one has a problem with that than maybe this isn't the character for you. I for one don't want to lose that aspect of the character or his world.

    I'm in complete agreement.

    The worst offences as far as I'm concerned occured during PB's neutered era (scoffing at smoking, having to explain his behaviour to women etc.) and it started right at the beginning of his era, with the talking to/telling off by M and then the put downs by Natalya ("boys with toys"...."that's why you're alone") not to mention Bond's own affirming "yes sir". Jeez!

    I have noticed a return to form during Craig's run (particularly in the early Vesper exchanges in Montenegro in the hotel and also very subtly in the put down exchanges with MP in SF.......I found it quite daring actually given she is a black woman....there is a risk of offending some).

    I hope for more of this (subtly though) in SP.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I've no problem with the "yes sir" comment. I just took it to mean that Bond was surprised at Natalya, an amusing moment I think.

    Besides Dalton first said that line when Pam told him to get in the tanker after LTK.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I agree that the line itself did not mean anything, but in combination with his relatively neutered PC era Bond, it took on a darker, more emasculated context in my perspective.

    Particularly after the 2nd film, where he basically was drinking himself under the table waiting for Paris. I could never imagine Moore or Connery doing that (even though Paris was meant to mean something to him). To me this was a different Bond to the one I grew up with (and who convincingly slapped behinds and wrapped bikinis around necks when required).

    Craig's condescending behaviour towards Vesper was a return to the Bond I grew up with, but somewhat toned down for the 00's. The balance was right here.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I don't think Craig's that insulting to Vesper.

    I think the interaction between him and Solange got the balance right between sexism and political correctness.
  • ThighsOfXeniaThighsOfXenia
    edited February 2015 Posts: 1,596
    Craig's condescending behavior towards Vesper is pretty neutered too. His insults are usually just back-handed compliments further emphasized by Craig's acting.

    Green plays Vesper so well and so intelligent that it's hard for any condescending remarks to stick. She's got too much "fire right back" dialogue.


  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    It was not Fleming who said that, but Bond. Having a protagonist think or say something is not the same as expressing one´s own attitude or opinion.

    Come on, we're all aware that the literary Bond was largely an avatar for Fleming to project his own views.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Hey! Putting down Brosnan's films for being neutered PC? How about Craig's films for him being a non-smoking triathlete?
    Look, the cinema has NEVER given us the true Fleming Bond. DN, FRWL, and Dalton's come closest IMHO, but let's understand that Bond, in movie form, is fluid, and subject to extensive change. Better to express one's favourites than to slate one's dislikes as junk.
    Jeeze, when Beiber becomes Bond and orders a veggie-vitamin shake (not stirred) you guys will have a heart attack! :))
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    "Every man wants to be him and every woman wants to be with him." Certainly he isn't your standard milk drinking/never uses a gun/tells a lie hero like Adam West's Batman, but he's definitely a hero. And you can only push the boundaries so far before the hero falls apart. If Bond started slapping women around for 'disrespect' or breaking a dish it wouldn't be politically correct, but that doesn't mean it'd be a good thing.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I think I like Connery so much as Bond these days because he is so anti-PC. In real life from what I heard, as well as in his portrayal of Bond.

    I'm personally fed up with these girly men. They are "playboys and tennis pros" to me. Bond is a real man, as Linda said in TLD.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I want a smoking, brutal, sexist Bond, who would be happy as Hell to see The British Empire rise again. That is the interesting character that I dig in the novels. He's a goddmaned hired killer.
    That's what Dalton said in interviews back in the day. And what Connery showed us back in his best efforts. Craig is doing a good bit of that now. Moore was just too damned nice after TMWTGG, and Brosnan was too much a schizophrenic (if interesting to ME) mix of dark-lite & white knight.
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