Is the Double-Take Pigeon the silliest thing in Moore's era?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I want a smoking, brutal, sexist Bond, who would be happy as Hell to see The British Empire rise again. That is the interesting character that I dig in the novels. He's a goddmaned hired killer.
    That's what Dalton said in interviews back in the day. And what Connery showed us back in his best efforts. Craig is doing a good bit of that now. Moore was just too damned nice after TMWTGG, and Brosnan was too much a schizophrenic (if interesting to ME) mix of dark-lite & white knight.

    I'm in agreement with both of you on this.

    I like how Craig has been able to handle it so far....walking that fine line between being sexist and brutal but still being likeable. It's not an easy line to walk in today's 'sensitive' era. Too many opportunities to offend but so far they've got the balance just right for the time imo.

    We'll never see playful butt smacking again sadly, but I can always watch my old blu rays of Connery for that.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Yes. i love that bit.
    The good times past....
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Yes. i love that bit.

    You'll probably be surprised but I love that bit too because it's not malicious. It's funny and in good humour. Yeah we'll never see that today but frankly I don't care. People today couldn't pull it off anyway.

    The thing is I became a Bond fan when I was young not so much because the Bond world was sexist/racist etc but because he went on fun adventures. The non-PC stuff I've appreciated as I've got older. Nonetheless I'm personally not that bothered if Bond never touches a cigarette again. You can still make a good/great movie without them.

    True we don't always need to like Bond but we need to be on his side. One of the comments I've sometimes heard about the MWTGG film is that you end up cheering on Scaramanga rather than Bond. Flmmakers do need to be careful with this sort of thing. I suppose the most morally questionable thing Bond has done so far in the current era is shag a woman knowing she was a former prostitute - something that I know had a BIG reaction on this forum.

  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Did Bond shagging Severine really get a negative reaction here? I know feminist blogs and the like were on it like a bonnet, but hard to imagine Bond fans getting upset.

    Indeed @Bain123; we're supposed to root for Bond. He's not Walter 'Heisenburg' White. We're not tuning in to see just how much more evil he'll get this week.

    Cigarettes aren't ever coming back, so I don't feel the need to argue with people who think smoking 70 a day is an important part of his character. Besides the obvious disconnect between someone expected to be in peak physical condition and someone with a massive nicotine habit, smoking isn't considered sexy anymore. People hate the smell, to the point it's a dealbreaker for many women and that Bond would have to find somewhere he could legally smoke (virtually nowhere in the first world). He's not exactly going to be standing outside the pub with the other smokers.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I've never smoked properly so I've never really seen the appeal. Yes it looked cool when Humphrey Bogart, Bette Davis and Sean Connery lit up but those people were in another era. I'm not sure trying to replicate that now would really work.
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Yes but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have the same level of social acceptance now as it did then.

    Actually, thinking about it, it wasn't all THAT long ago since we last saw Bond smoke (Die Another Day).

    Nonetheless I don't think it really NEEDS to be a regular thing. As I said CR was still a hugely popular and bloody good film. There were enough "rough" touches like drinking shagging and gambling but not a cigarette in sight.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Birdleson wrote: »
    It would work. Many people still smoke in this world.
    Where would Bond smoke in 2015 Europe?

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Smoking has become a third world thing.
  • Posts: 11,189
    The anti smoking stuff started in 1989 when Pam said anxiously "I haven't had one of these in 5 years".

    Also that film had a warning at the end of it about the dangers of nicotine if I can remember.

    It's not really a new thing.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I was 3-4 back then. I'm 29 now.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Smoking has become a third world thing.

    Tell that to the millions of people who still smoke in America.
    no one disputes that people still smoke. It is much less common and much less cool.

    744d3maa3uqlxcitxabzxw.gif
    Birdleson wrote: »
    1989 still seems new to some of us.

    Wait until you find out about this thing called 'grunge' and 'gangsta rap' in the 90s ;)

  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Except that smoking doesn't just have "long term effects". What percentage of athletes do you imagine smoke 70 cigs a day?

    My point was that social attitudes toward smoking have greatly change. Unless you want to make a period piece there's some aspects of Bond's behavior that change as well. Unless you'd like to see Craig in a blue terry-cloth onesie ;)
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 5,767
    Sark wrote: »
    It was not Fleming who said that, but Bond. Having a protagonist think or say something is not the same as expressing one´s own attitude or opinion.

    Come on, we're all aware that the literary Bond was largely an avatar for Fleming to project his own views.
    Those who are make themselves slaves to the media hype. None of us had any personal access to Fleming´s life, so all we "know" is based on statements made by other people who may or may not tell the truth.



    Sark wrote: »
    Cigarettes aren't ever coming back, so I don't feel the need to argue with people who think smoking 70 a day is an important part of his character. Besides the obvious disconnect between someone expected to be in peak physical condition and someone with a massive nicotine habit, smoking isn't considered sexy anymore. People hate the smell, to the point it's a dealbreaker for many women and that Bond would have to find somewhere he could legally smoke (virtually nowhere in the first world). He's not exactly going to be standing outside the pub with the other smokers.
    True, even if already in the TB novel Bond is sent into rehab for his abuse of tobacco and alcohol, the health concerns regarding tobacco have since then increased massively. It makes no sense that there are no similar public concerns regarding drug no1, alcohol, but that´s the way it is.

    Bond smoking and drinking and taking benzedrine, even though he apperently knows about the damage potential (TB novel) shows him to be of a certain obstinacy, which has to do with his high pressure job, as was stated many times. If that gets translated into current terms, the character wouldn´t need to smoke or drink and still be nasty.


    Birdleson wrote: »
    Bond's smoking habits should be reflective of what is polled as cool? That is a depressing thought. He smokes and drinks to excess because he is in a high pressure, dangerous profession. Long term effects aren't his concern.
    This.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    This discussion about smoking definitely reflects my problem with how the Bond character has been portrayed over the last 20 years. This has to do with more than smoking (which I don't mind, but which I realize cannot sell any more on film) and rather, more to do with the essense of Bond.

    In my opinion, it actually started with Dalton (with his Bond's one woman attitude and his sensitivity to Kara's character), and then went into overdrive during Brosnan's time. In fact, Dalton's Bond's sensitive reactions to both Kara and Bouvier are what disappointed me the most about his portrayal (it may have been more in tune with literary Bond - I'm not sure because I've only read a few of the novels), although he redeemed himself in my eyes with some of his interactions with Lupe. Bond is not PC to me. Period. To me, Bond doesn't give a hoot about how he is perceived. Many of us like this aspect of his character. It's what differentiates him from the metro heroes of our day. He's an old school, alpha man. The movies though still have to put bums in seats, of both sexes. That is practical reality. Women are a much larger part of the movie going audience and they have to be interested in the characters they see on screen & not be offended by their behaviour.

    In my estimation, in order for this essence of Bond to remain in the film character, and for the character to still be successful in today's world, the actor chosen has to be able to portray old fashioned alpha male virility & confidence. No two ways about it. He has to be able to do this without appearing nasty however, in order to retain the male audience but still bring in the female audience.

    I definitely see this in Daniel Craig. He is able to project sexual machismo & old fashioned male arrogance/confidence very readily & yet acceptably on the screen. I think this was one of the principal reasons the man was cast as James Bond in all honesty. I read somewhere that BB principally was drawn to his acting during the Layer Cake scene in the club when he first notices and then approaches Sienna Miller's character.

    I think they achieved the balance best in CR & ironically during Connery's GF and Moore's superstar turn in late 70's (TSWLM, MR) precisely because the female characters (Pussy, Anya, Goodhead, Vesper) in those movies were very confident, intelligent, career oriented and progressive as well. Bond was able to be his sexist self and yet due to the strength of the female characters it did not look bad. It was best achieved in Brosnan's time for the same reasons in GE & DAD (with Natalya & Frost respectively, but not the pathetic Jinx). I did not see it in TND, because even though Wai Lin was a strong character, Brosnan's Bond did not project the alpha male sexism so well here, but rather was explaining himself (it seemed almost like a business relationship). The worst imo was Dalton's Bond vs. the whining, insecure Pam Bouvier. She was actually less progressive than Goodhead, or Anya or Pussy despite being on screen many years later.

    So I think in today's day and age, a strong, confident, witty woman like Vesper is necessary in order for Bond to be Bond without it coming across like bullying.

    PS: - I don't know, maybe because I'm a man, but I never saw Connery or Moore as being offensive on screen despite their Bond's terribly old fashioned attitudes and behaviour towards women. I think that's a testament to the immense likeability & on-screen charisma of both actors - true legends imo.
  • Posts: 5,767
    Well said, @bondjames.
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 7,653
    Birdleson wrote: »
    But you will find many soldiers and police officers who smoke.

    And quite a few a racist as well, and will shoot you for being the wrong colour. They do make Sheriff Pepper look like a very reasonable man.

    The women in Craigs era have been disappointing, it feels almost like they do not know what to do with a woman. They could take a lesson from the last two MI movies in which the women were strong and convincing without being a damsel in distress. Vesper was a major disappointment for me.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    I'm just glad for QOS, a great Bond IMO. SP looks to be shaping up to be one of the very best yet. One great one every decade, and I'm happy. :D
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 3,566
    Sark wrote: »
    Did Bond shagging Severine really get a negative reaction here? I know feminist blogs and the like were on it like a bonnet, but hard to imagine Bond fans getting upset.

    Yes, there was a negative reaction in some quarters here. My own personal take is that these were from folks who just didn't like SF, and were stretching to find a justication for that distaste.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Sark wrote: »
    Did Bond shagging Severine really get a negative reaction here? I know feminist blogs and the like were on it like a bonnet, but hard to imagine Bond fans getting upset.

    Yes, there was a negative reaction is some quarters here. My own personal take is that these were from folks who just didn't like SF, and were stretching to find a justication for that distaste.

    I'm not exactly the biggest SF fan but that was never one of my criticisms. They're two consenting adults, it'd be absurd for Bond not to shag a beautiful woman because of her troubled past.
  • I thought it was just S.O.P. for Bond. Beautiful woman working for the bad guy? A little Bond love goes a long way in getting her to switch sides...
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,133
    This has gone way off topic. The last two pages of posts have had little relation to Roger Moore's Bond at all.
    One of the sillier moments of the Moore era would have to be in A View To A Kill.
    The scene with the city hall fire and the police chief questioning Bond. Bond simply stating his real name expecting the police chief to know him is absurd. The following fire truck chase, though nicely shot, is played for laughs. It has no element of danger or tension what so ever.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    I think AVTAK is underrated, but that scene is pretty bad. Especially the cheap gag of knocking the cover off the back of the pickup truck to reveal the copulating couple inside.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2015 Posts: 23,883
    The stunt double being noticed during every action scene (including a simple run) is one of the worst things about the Moore era, most evident in AVTAK and to a lesser extent, OP.

    That and the inappropriate Beach Boys tune.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    the fact that it's a cover of a Beach Boys song makes it somehow worse. Why not just use the original?
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 3,566
    It's hard to name a single moment as the silliest during Moore's tenure. Certainly, the double taking pigeon and the absurd Bondola sharing one attrocious scene together must rankly highly in this competition. But for me, the most egregious example of unbearable absurdity would have to be Bond being rescued by the karate girls in TMWTGG...who then proceed to leave him behind, driving off without him in the car. You'd think Lt. Hip would have noticed that Bond had not yet gotten into vehicle when he peeled out!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    You'd think Lt. Hip would have noticed that Bond had not yet gotten into vehicle when he peeled out!
    In or out. Out? You must have your own route.

  • Posts: 5,767
    SaintMark wrote: »
    The women in Craigs era have been disappointing, it feels almost like they do not know what to do with a woman. They could take a lesson from the last two MI movies in which the women were strong and convincing without being a damsel in distress. Vesper was a major disappointment for me.
    While I think the women in M:I 4 were terrific (not so much so in M:I 3), I didn´t find any fault in the women in Craig´s Bond films so far, quite the opposite.

  • Posts: 7,653
    boldfinger wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    The women in Craigs era have been disappointing, it feels almost like they do not know what to do with a woman. They could take a lesson from the last two MI movies in which the women were strong and convincing without being a damsel in distress. Vesper was a major disappointment for me.
    While I think the women in M:I 4 were terrific (not so much so in M:I 3), I didn´t find any fault in the women in Craig´s Bond films so far, quite the opposite.

    Agree to disagree. ;)


  • Birdleson wrote: »
    I prefer the goofier broads. Hate the tough chicks.

    Agree to disagree.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I prefer the goofier broads. Hate the tough chicks.

    Agree to disagree.

    Ditto. I'd at least like someone with a bit of intelligence.
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