Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited June 2022 Posts: 554
    mtm wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Great article on the issues of Bond 26.
    https://screenrant.com/james-bond-26-reboot-no-time-die-difficult/

    Key points:

    While Bond’s death might seem the perfect foundation for a reboot by wiping the slate clean, this was not deemed necessary for Casino Royale.

    How Bond 26 shall set the tone for 007 is already set to suffer because its story somewhat relies on a reset to the franchise – whether this reset is a partial or complete one is currently unclear. Bond 26 cannot pick up where No Time To Die left off, but it also cannot ignore the significance of audiences having witnessed 007’s death.

    Bond 26 has the difficulty of following a successful arc with the requirement of incorporating change: a lack of tonal distinction, after all, would make Bond’s death seem even more incongruous.

    If Bond was to die, only to have the character return to cinemas with much of the same tone and personality, it would be hard to understand what distinguishes a Bond film from other action films.


    Yes. The Craig era being its own continuity doesn't justify NTTD. Babs and MGW thought killing off Craig's Bond, Brofeld, and Felix would make it easier to start fresh with Bond 26, but it's actually the complete opposite, just as Brosnan's Bond dying at the end of DAD would have made CR feel very strange.

    Bond being played by different actors over many decades is a far cry from killing the character and then resurrecting him. Multiple continuities doesn't give EON a license to cheat. Basic rules of logic still need to be followed. After all, you're still telling the stories of one man... or are you?

    Which brings me to this point: everyone hated/hates the idea of James Bond being a code name. But what's the difference between that and having multiple James Bonds living completely different lives? Now it appears we have three different people named James Bond. James Bond A (Connery through Brosnan) fought during and after the Cold War and lost Tracy to Blofeld. James Bond B (Craig) only became a 00 after 9/11, didn't marry Tracy, had a kid with Madeline and Blofeld as an adoptive brother, and then was killed in a missile strike. Presumably James Bond C will have a completely different life narrative, as well.

    Again, how is that different from the code name theory? If you're going to have multiple James Bonds whose lives have nothing to do with one another you might as well just use the code name idea.

    The only way I can envision Bond 26 working is if NTTD is severely retconned. They cannot simply ignore Bond 25 by appealing to the "different continuity" argument.

    I don’t understand the theory that they killed him for the sake of B26; I think they just did it for an ending to B25.
    I did read a quote from Craig where he said he used that reasoning (being able to do whatever for B26) when trying to sell them on doing it.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    I bet that 'simply ignoring Bond 25 by appealing to the different continuity argument' is exactly what they'll do. No retcon, nowt - they'll just ignore it. Clean slate.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    Venutius wrote: »
    I bet that 'simply ignoring Bond 25 by appealing to the different continuity argument' is exactly what they'll do. No retcon, nowt - they'll just ignore it. Clean slate.
    Agreed.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited June 2022 Posts: 24,179
    mtm wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Great article on the issues of Bond 26.
    https://screenrant.com/james-bond-26-reboot-no-time-die-difficult/

    Key points:

    While Bond’s death might seem the perfect foundation for a reboot by wiping the slate clean, this was not deemed necessary for Casino Royale.

    How Bond 26 shall set the tone for 007 is already set to suffer because its story somewhat relies on a reset to the franchise – whether this reset is a partial or complete one is currently unclear. Bond 26 cannot pick up where No Time To Die left off, but it also cannot ignore the significance of audiences having witnessed 007’s death.

    Bond 26 has the difficulty of following a successful arc with the requirement of incorporating change: a lack of tonal distinction, after all, would make Bond’s death seem even more incongruous.

    If Bond was to die, only to have the character return to cinemas with much of the same tone and personality, it would be hard to understand what distinguishes a Bond film from other action films.


    Yes. The Craig era being its own continuity doesn't justify NTTD. Babs and MGW thought killing off Craig's Bond, Brofeld, and Felix would make it easier to start fresh with Bond 26, but it's actually the complete opposite, just as Brosnan's Bond dying at the end of DAD would have made CR feel very strange.

    Bond being played by different actors over many decades is a far cry from killing the character and then resurrecting him. Multiple continuities doesn't give EON a license to cheat. Basic rules of logic still need to be followed. After all, you're still telling the stories of one man... or are you?

    Which brings me to this point: everyone hated/hates the idea of James Bond being a code name. But what's the difference between that and having multiple James Bonds living completely different lives? Now it appears we have three different people named James Bond. James Bond A (Connery through Brosnan) fought during and after the Cold War and lost Tracy to Blofeld. James Bond B (Craig) only became a 00 after 9/11, didn't marry Tracy, had a kid with Madeline and Blofeld as an adoptive brother, and then was killed in a missile strike. Presumably James Bond C will have a completely different life narrative, as well.

    Again, how is that different from the code name theory? If you're going to have multiple James Bonds whose lives have nothing to do with one another you might as well just use the code name idea.

    The only way I can envision Bond 26 working is if NTTD is severely retconned. They cannot simply ignore Bond 25 by appealing to the "different continuity" argument.

    I don’t understand the theory that they killed him for the sake of B26; I think they just did it for an ending to B25.

    So do I. They killed Bond off for the purpose of 'terminating' this incarnation of 007 in a way that they considered artistically satisfying. The fact that they can do whatever they want in B26 is a given. Brosnan's DAD Bond wasn't killed, despite the (unplanned) reboot that followed, and honestly, no one cared. Give it another year or two, the introduction of a new actor, and carefully timed press releases; NTTD and the 'Vesper' Bond will be forgotten in a flash.
  • Posts: 1,092
    I'm more emotional about the death of this franchise than the death of the character.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2022 Posts: 16,383
    mtm wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Great article on the issues of Bond 26.
    https://screenrant.com/james-bond-26-reboot-no-time-die-difficult/

    Key points:

    While Bond’s death might seem the perfect foundation for a reboot by wiping the slate clean, this was not deemed necessary for Casino Royale.

    How Bond 26 shall set the tone for 007 is already set to suffer because its story somewhat relies on a reset to the franchise – whether this reset is a partial or complete one is currently unclear. Bond 26 cannot pick up where No Time To Die left off, but it also cannot ignore the significance of audiences having witnessed 007’s death.

    Bond 26 has the difficulty of following a successful arc with the requirement of incorporating change: a lack of tonal distinction, after all, would make Bond’s death seem even more incongruous.

    If Bond was to die, only to have the character return to cinemas with much of the same tone and personality, it would be hard to understand what distinguishes a Bond film from other action films.


    Yes. The Craig era being its own continuity doesn't justify NTTD. Babs and MGW thought killing off Craig's Bond, Brofeld, and Felix would make it easier to start fresh with Bond 26, but it's actually the complete opposite, just as Brosnan's Bond dying at the end of DAD would have made CR feel very strange.

    Bond being played by different actors over many decades is a far cry from killing the character and then resurrecting him. Multiple continuities doesn't give EON a license to cheat. Basic rules of logic still need to be followed. After all, you're still telling the stories of one man... or are you?

    Which brings me to this point: everyone hated/hates the idea of James Bond being a code name. But what's the difference between that and having multiple James Bonds living completely different lives? Now it appears we have three different people named James Bond. James Bond A (Connery through Brosnan) fought during and after the Cold War and lost Tracy to Blofeld. James Bond B (Craig) only became a 00 after 9/11, didn't marry Tracy, had a kid with Madeline and Blofeld as an adoptive brother, and then was killed in a missile strike. Presumably James Bond C will have a completely different life narrative, as well.

    Again, how is that different from the code name theory? If you're going to have multiple James Bonds whose lives have nothing to do with one another you might as well just use the code name idea.

    The only way I can envision Bond 26 working is if NTTD is severely retconned. They cannot simply ignore Bond 25 by appealing to the "different continuity" argument.

    I don’t understand the theory that they killed him for the sake of B26; I think they just did it for an ending to B25.
    I did read a quote from Craig where he said he used that reasoning (being able to do whatever for B26) when trying to sell them on doing it.

    I really doubt that was the main driver on doing it though; it would have been mostly because they thought it would make a great ending to the film and this series of films. Any position that it left them in for the next one would just be a bonus. Their main focus is, and has always been, on making the current film the best possible one they can- they won't sacrifice this one for the sake of making the next one even better, they want this one to be great, every single time.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited June 2022 Posts: 554
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Great article on the issues of Bond 26.
    https://screenrant.com/james-bond-26-reboot-no-time-die-difficult/

    Key points:

    While Bond’s death might seem the perfect foundation for a reboot by wiping the slate clean, this was not deemed necessary for Casino Royale.

    How Bond 26 shall set the tone for 007 is already set to suffer because its story somewhat relies on a reset to the franchise – whether this reset is a partial or complete one is currently unclear. Bond 26 cannot pick up where No Time To Die left off, but it also cannot ignore the significance of audiences having witnessed 007’s death.

    Bond 26 has the difficulty of following a successful arc with the requirement of incorporating change: a lack of tonal distinction, after all, would make Bond’s death seem even more incongruous.

    If Bond was to die, only to have the character return to cinemas with much of the same tone and personality, it would be hard to understand what distinguishes a Bond film from other action films.


    Yes. The Craig era being its own continuity doesn't justify NTTD. Babs and MGW thought killing off Craig's Bond, Brofeld, and Felix would make it easier to start fresh with Bond 26, but it's actually the complete opposite, just as Brosnan's Bond dying at the end of DAD would have made CR feel very strange.

    Bond being played by different actors over many decades is a far cry from killing the character and then resurrecting him. Multiple continuities doesn't give EON a license to cheat. Basic rules of logic still need to be followed. After all, you're still telling the stories of one man... or are you?

    Which brings me to this point: everyone hated/hates the idea of James Bond being a code name. But what's the difference between that and having multiple James Bonds living completely different lives? Now it appears we have three different people named James Bond. James Bond A (Connery through Brosnan) fought during and after the Cold War and lost Tracy to Blofeld. James Bond B (Craig) only became a 00 after 9/11, didn't marry Tracy, had a kid with Madeline and Blofeld as an adoptive brother, and then was killed in a missile strike. Presumably James Bond C will have a completely different life narrative, as well.

    Again, how is that different from the code name theory? If you're going to have multiple James Bonds whose lives have nothing to do with one another you might as well just use the code name idea.

    The only way I can envision Bond 26 working is if NTTD is severely retconned. They cannot simply ignore Bond 25 by appealing to the "different continuity" argument.

    I don’t understand the theory that they killed him for the sake of B26; I think they just did it for an ending to B25.
    I did read a quote from Craig where he said he used that reasoning (being able to do whatever for B26) when trying to sell them on doing it.

    I really doubt that was the main driver on doing it though; it would have been mostly because they thought it would make a great ending to the film and this series of films. Any position that it left them in for the next one would just be a bonus. Their main focus is, and has always been, on making the current film the best possible one they can- they won't sacrifice this one for the sake of making the next one even better, they want this one to be great, every single time.
    Of course, I just wanted to point out they considered the clean slate effect.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Great article on the issues of Bond 26.
    https://screenrant.com/james-bond-26-reboot-no-time-die-difficult/

    Key points:

    While Bond’s death might seem the perfect foundation for a reboot by wiping the slate clean, this was not deemed necessary for Casino Royale.

    How Bond 26 shall set the tone for 007 is already set to suffer because its story somewhat relies on a reset to the franchise – whether this reset is a partial or complete one is currently unclear. Bond 26 cannot pick up where No Time To Die left off, but it also cannot ignore the significance of audiences having witnessed 007’s death.

    Bond 26 has the difficulty of following a successful arc with the requirement of incorporating change: a lack of tonal distinction, after all, would make Bond’s death seem even more incongruous.

    If Bond was to die, only to have the character return to cinemas with much of the same tone and personality, it would be hard to understand what distinguishes a Bond film from other action films.


    Yes. The Craig era being its own continuity doesn't justify NTTD. Babs and MGW thought killing off Craig's Bond, Brofeld, and Felix would make it easier to start fresh with Bond 26, but it's actually the complete opposite, just as Brosnan's Bond dying at the end of DAD would have made CR feel very strange.

    Bond being played by different actors over many decades is a far cry from killing the character and then resurrecting him. Multiple continuities doesn't give EON a license to cheat. Basic rules of logic still need to be followed. After all, you're still telling the stories of one man... or are you?

    Which brings me to this point: everyone hated/hates the idea of James Bond being a code name. But what's the difference between that and having multiple James Bonds living completely different lives? Now it appears we have three different people named James Bond. James Bond A (Connery through Brosnan) fought during and after the Cold War and lost Tracy to Blofeld. James Bond B (Craig) only became a 00 after 9/11, didn't marry Tracy, had a kid with Madeline and Blofeld as an adoptive brother, and then was killed in a missile strike. Presumably James Bond C will have a completely different life narrative, as well.

    Again, how is that different from the code name theory? If you're going to have multiple James Bonds whose lives have nothing to do with one another you might as well just use the code name idea.

    The only way I can envision Bond 26 working is if NTTD is severely retconned. They cannot simply ignore Bond 25 by appealing to the "different continuity" argument.

    I don’t understand the theory that they killed him for the sake of B26; I think they just did it for an ending to B25.
    I did read a quote from Craig where he said he used that reasoning (being able to do whatever for B26) when trying to sell them on doing it.

    I really doubt that was the main driver on doing it though; it would have been mostly because they thought it would make a great ending to the film and this series of films. Any position that it left them in for the next one would just be a bonus. Their main focus is, and has always been, on making the current film the best possible one they can- they won't sacrifice this one for the sake of making the next one even better, they want this one to be great, every single time.

    As did Fleming. He treated each book as its own event.
  • Posts: 16,162
    CrabKey wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Great article on the issues of Bond 26.
    https://screenrant.com/james-bond-26-reboot-no-time-die-difficult/

    The only way I can envision Bond 26 working is if NTTD is severely retconned. They cannot simply ignore Bond 25 by appealing to the "different continuity" argument.
    '

    Of course they could always go the 'Dallas' dream season route when actor Patrol Duffy exited the series in a fiery crash. A year later, after he determined leaving a successful series was not a wise choice, the producers brought Duffy's character back by wiping out an entire season by passing it off as a dream. In Bond 26, Moneypenny could pop awake, report to work and tell the new young Bond that she dreamt he was old, had a child, and was blown up.

    Start fresh as if the previous 60 years hadn't happened.

    I think NTTD should have ended with the missiles hitting the island as Bond gets obliterated- then cut to Connery in DR NO awakening on the beach to Honey Ryder. The entire Craig era could've been a nightmare Bond was having on Crab key.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,139
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Great article on the issues of Bond 26.
    https://screenrant.com/james-bond-26-reboot-no-time-die-difficult/

    Key points:

    While Bond’s death might seem the perfect foundation for a reboot by wiping the slate clean, this was not deemed necessary for Casino Royale.

    How Bond 26 shall set the tone for 007 is already set to suffer because its story somewhat relies on a reset to the franchise – whether this reset is a partial or complete one is currently unclear. Bond 26 cannot pick up where No Time To Die left off, but it also cannot ignore the significance of audiences having witnessed 007’s death.

    Bond 26 has the difficulty of following a successful arc with the requirement of incorporating change: a lack of tonal distinction, after all, would make Bond’s death seem even more incongruous.

    If Bond was to die, only to have the character return to cinemas with much of the same tone and personality, it would be hard to understand what distinguishes a Bond film from other action films.


    Yes. The Craig era being its own continuity doesn't justify NTTD. Babs and MGW thought killing off Craig's Bond, Brofeld, and Felix would make it easier to start fresh with Bond 26, but it's actually the complete opposite, just as Brosnan's Bond dying at the end of DAD would have made CR feel very strange.

    Bond being played by different actors over many decades is a far cry from killing the character and then resurrecting him. Multiple continuities doesn't give EON a license to cheat. Basic rules of logic still need to be followed. After all, you're still telling the stories of one man... or are you?

    Which brings me to this point: everyone hated/hates the idea of James Bond being a code name. But what's the difference between that and having multiple James Bonds living completely different lives? Now it appears we have three different people named James Bond. James Bond A (Connery through Brosnan) fought during and after the Cold War and lost Tracy to Blofeld. James Bond B (Craig) only became a 00 after 9/11, didn't marry Tracy, had a kid with Madeline and Blofeld as an adoptive brother, and then was killed in a missile strike. Presumably James Bond C will have a completely different life narrative, as well.

    Again, how is that different from the code name theory? If you're going to have multiple James Bonds whose lives have nothing to do with one another you might as well just use the code name idea.

    The only way I can envision Bond 26 working is if NTTD is severely retconned. They cannot simply ignore Bond 25 by appealing to the "different continuity" argument.

    I feel it's debatable how deeply audiences will think about all this, especially given the fact that we live in a world of reboots, remakes, and not to mention 60 years of Bond changing actor with loose continuity. Also the gap between NTTD and Bond 26 will probably help wipe the slate a little bit. I presume a big part of the marketing of Bond 26 will centre on the fact that it's a reboot/a new incarnation of the character too, as was the case with something like The Batman... I mean, is there much difference between that film and this scenario for Bond 26? Anyway, short of adapting TMWTGG's opening and doing a 'soft sequel' to the Craig era with a new actor (which seems antithetical to the more strict continuity of those films) there's little way to retcon such a thing.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    I'm more emotional about the death of this franchise than the death of the character.

    The "franchise" is the sum total of books, films, merchandising, soundtracks, games, ... This "franchise" looks pretty healthy to me, @The_Reaper. It's not going to die any time soon.

    As for the film series, which I suspect is what you're talking about, don't worry. It's got a long road ahead of it. LTK didn't kill it off. DAD didn't kill it off. NTTD will not have killed it off. People thought Bond wouldn't make it through the '70s; people thought Bond wouldn't survive Connery's departure from the role. People thought Bond couldn't survive the fall of the Berlin Wall... Yet time again, Bond proved them wrong.
  • Posts: 1,630
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    I'm more emotional about the death of this franchise than the death of the character.

    The "franchise" is the sum total of books, films, merchandising, soundtracks, games, ... This "franchise" looks pretty healthy to me, @The_Reaper. It's not going to die any time soon.

    As for the film series, which I suspect is what you're talking about, don't worry. It's got a long road ahead of it. LTK didn't kill it off. DAD didn't kill it off. NTTD will not have killed it off. People thought Bond wouldn't make it through the '70s; people thought Bond wouldn't survive Connery's departure from the role. People thought Bond couldn't survive the fall of the Berlin Wall... Yet time again, Bond proved them wrong.

    I'll add to your well-made points, OK ? DAD made a FORTUNE, yet did not keep the series from going with the change for which it was quite ready. And the series survived Connery's second departure, after LALD, and the change to Roger Moore. There were THREE Different Bond actors in just THREE successive films ! OHMSS, DAF, LALD ! The series survived TMWTGG and bounced back in a BIG way with TSWLM.

    As for all the over-thinking about "How can they this or that after the ending of NTTD ?!?!?" It will be just like every other time they change actor. New Bond. New story. Sometimes a new M, Tanner, Moneypenny, and MI6 HQ, too. So what. A new film has been just that - a new film.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    Since62 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    The_Reaper wrote: »
    I'm more emotional about the death of this franchise than the death of the character.

    The "franchise" is the sum total of books, films, merchandising, soundtracks, games, ... This "franchise" looks pretty healthy to me, @The_Reaper. It's not going to die any time soon.

    As for the film series, which I suspect is what you're talking about, don't worry. It's got a long road ahead of it. LTK didn't kill it off. DAD didn't kill it off. NTTD will not have killed it off. People thought Bond wouldn't make it through the '70s; people thought Bond wouldn't survive Connery's departure from the role. People thought Bond couldn't survive the fall of the Berlin Wall... Yet time again, Bond proved them wrong.

    I'll add to your well-made points, OK ? DAD made a FORTUNE, yet did not keep the series from going with the change for which it was quite ready. And the series survived Connery's second departure, after LALD, and the change to Roger Moore. There were THREE Different Bond actors in just THREE successive films ! OHMSS, DAF, LALD ! The series survived TMWTGG and bounced back in a BIG way with TSWLM.

    As for all the over-thinking about "How can they this or that after the ending of NTTD ?!?!?" It will be just like every other time they change actor. New Bond. New story. Sometimes a new M, Tanner, Moneypenny, and MI6 HQ, too. So what. A new film has been just that - a new film.

    The point is that the reason why audiences were so willing to accept new actors in the role was because they didn't kill off the character. So, it's not the same. It's not even close. Bond 26 can't just be another Bond movie, because the movie before it also wasn't just another Bond movie.
  • Posts: 4,139
    I mean, what is 'just another Bond movie' though? Arguably we haven't really had a 'traditional Bond film' since DAD... arguably even TWINE and DAD gave us things within those parameters that were out of the norm for the series, regardless of whether or not any of us liked how they did this.

    Personally, I'm not saying that Bond 26 (providing it will be a reboot/a fresh timeline) be generic or rehash overused ideas from previous films. They are going to have to reintroduce this universe to audiences, give us a fresh take on Bond's character (he can't really be a one dimensional character again after the Craig era) and give us something different - stylistically, tonally, narratively - all while making something that is recognisably a James Bond film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I’d say the last time we got “just another Bond movie” was probably TND. But that had a personal element for Bond, so perhaps TLD?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2022 Posts: 16,383
    I’d say the last time we got “just another Bond movie” was probably TND. But that had a personal element for Bond, so perhaps TLD?

    Yes, I think you're right. And even in TLD he 'went rogue' by disobeying M's orders (twice!).
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Which would make it AVTAK! Because Roger was arguably the last time we got the traditional unflappable Bond. Ever since Dalton, Bond has been a much more emotional animal.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited June 2022 Posts: 13,978
    mtm wrote: »
    I’d say the last time we got “just another Bond movie” was probably TND. But that had a personal element for Bond, so perhaps TLD?

    Yes, I think you're right. And even in TLD he 'went rogue' by disobeying M's orders (twice!).

    Well, one of those was for a very good reason. Killing a civilian doesn't look good for a hero.

    Bond disobeyed M in DN, and no one seems to mind. And with the introduction of the 'sacrificial lamb' to the Bond movie DNA, it could be argued that Bond has made things personal, a lot further back than some might want to admit.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2022 Posts: 16,383
    mtm wrote: »
    I’d say the last time we got “just another Bond movie” was probably TND. But that had a personal element for Bond, so perhaps TLD?

    Yes, I think you're right. And even in TLD he 'went rogue' by disobeying M's orders (twice!).

    Well, one of those was for a very good reason. Killing a civilian doesn't look good for a hero.

    Bond always 'goes rogue' for a good reason (he's never really wrong after all :) ) it's just that people, as you say, like to complain about things he's always done. In TMWTGG he goes 'off the books' on a personal mission (albeit with a nod from M), there's even a slight 'rogue' aspect in that most conventional of Bond films, Moonraker.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    I’d say the last time we got “just another Bond movie” was probably TND. But that had a personal element for Bond, so perhaps TLD?

    Yes, I think you're right. And even in TLD he 'went rogue' by disobeying M's orders (twice!).

    Well, one of those was for a very good reason. Killing a civilian doesn't look good for a hero.

    Bond disobeyed M in DN, and no one seems to mind. And with the introduction of the 'sacrificial lamb' to the Bond movie DNA, it could be argued that Bond has made things personal, a lot further back than some might want to admit.

    I don't think it's as much Bond films 'making things personal' or Bond simply disobeying orders more than it is Bond not being a one dimensional/flat character. LTK stands out because Bond has a goal of his own that drives the story. It's not just him passively being told where to go and what to investigate. Even the whole 'Bond disobeying orders' thing in DAD, CR, QOS and SF gives him a bit more agency in the story because he's choosing to do what he does (in CR it's not for personal reasons, and in QOS while Vesper's death hangs over him, he's just carrying out the mission ultimately, not blindly motivated by revenge). It's certainly something we've seen a lot more of since TLD: in that film Bond ultimately chooses to carry out the assignment himself because of a) the fact that Kara, the woman he chose not to kill out of instinct at the start of the film, is involved and b) Pushkin, a man he knows/doubts is responsible, is also potentially involved, not to mention the death of his colleague 004.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Yeah I’m absolutely all up for Bond taking charge, and a bit of conflict with M threatening to take his badge and gun is all part and parcel of that in these sorts of films.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    M: Bond... I don't want any more trouble like you had last year in Isthmus. You understand? That's my policy.

    Bond: Yeah, well, when a drug lord maims my friend and kills his wife, I set the bastard on fire - that's my policy.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,139
    Yeah, I think Bond having agency/conflict in the story is great. I do think that one thing the writers/producers will learn is that this doesn't necessarily have to be achieved by Bond going rouge or knowing people personally involved in his mission. It can be anything. I've suggested a before that a future Bond film could involve Bond near the start of his career thinking about retiring from the Service because of his cynicism towards the job/killing people (a very Fleming touch), possibly having messed up a job or two prior. He is given his assignment to prove himself to M (presuming he respects him in this scenario) and over the course of the film slowly comes to realise what 'good' his profession can do and the fact that he's drawn to the danger of his job.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    mattjoes wrote: »
    M: Bond... I don't want any more trouble like you had last year in Isthmus. You understand? That's my policy.

    Bond: Yeah, well, when a drug lord maims my friend and kills his wife, I set the bastard on fire - that's my policy.

    I see what you did there.

    timothy-dalton-simon-skinner.gif
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    mattjoes wrote: »
    M: Bond... I don't want any more trouble like you had last year in Isthmus. You understand? That's my policy.

    Bond: Yeah, well, when a drug lord maims my friend and kills his wife, I set the bastard on fire - that's my policy.

    I couldn’t help but hear Leslie Nielsen’s voice.
  • Posts: 1,078
    slide_99 wrote: »
    The point is that the reason why audiences were so willing to accept new actors in the role was because they didn't kill off the character. So, it's not the same. It's not even close. Bond 26 can't just be another Bond movie, because the movie before it also wasn't just another Bond movie.

    Totally. Before the Craig era, actors were playing the same character. Now they've decided to kill Bond off, the audience has to approach the next Bond movie with three choices.

    1) Accept it's a new character called James Bond.
    2) Accept it's the same character, but in a different universe/timeline/reboot blah blah.
    3) Not think about it too much and just think 'Bond is like Batman now'.

    And that's the situation with James Bond movies now. Great eh?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,790
    It's the same character.
  • Posts: 1,078
    It's the same character.

    So how did he survive the explosion and get off the island then?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,790
    He clearly doesn't.

    There's a point to that for the story, and by extension for how it relates to creator Ian Fleming's experiences in World War II.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited June 2022 Posts: 693
    When I watched Brosnan as Bond I saw him as being the same person as all the previous Bonds, in the sense that these missions were all a part of this one person's life. Of course it takes suspension of disbelief, especially in regards to Bond staying within the same age range of 30s-50s, but it didn't bother me because they didn't do anything extreme with his character or any of the others. After Felix lost his leg, he was out of the picture and Jack Wade was introduced as Bond's CIA ally. After Bond killed Blofeld in FYEO he wasn't seen again. As loose as the continuity was, it had a basic logic to it. The only real hiccup was Blofeld not recognizing Bond in OHMSS, but I was willing to overlook that and just accept the movie as it was.

    The Craig era made things really messy, but even then I accepted Dench playing M once again and Blofeld being reintroduced, even though I didn't like the execution. Craig's Bond could have just bowed out gracefully and left the series open for another reinterpretation, but instead it's been left in a heap of rubble due to an egotistical star and a sycophantic producer who clearly didn't know how to say no to him.

    I would be more willing to accept NTTD if it actually was the last James Bond movie, but since it isn't, I see no point to it whatsoever. It has no meaning. Craig's version of Bond died but Bond is still alive? It makes no sense. The level of cynicism on display here on the part of EON rivals that of Disney.
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