Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Yes, indeed - the blatant ignorance of them while at the same time pontificating and spouting about bizarre rumours, half of which they've made up themselves in the boozer just to stir it. I wonder to what extent EON will actually sit down and prepare the next actor for the onslaught of tabloid garbage he'll be in for?
  • Posts: 4,139
    Venutius wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    And thats just from Babs :))
    Excellent! But you know what? Whoever it is actually won't be as good as Dan, so it'll be fair comment! Funny old world...
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind the Bonds being a tad less expensive, but I also don't want them cheap. The indulgence of high technical quality is part of the fun. ;-)
    It certainly is. It's also odd to think that there were gripes at the time that SF was being made on the cheap. Well, you'd never know to look at it, right? So yes, they could cut some costs and still get a great-looking film. Hey, if it gives them a reason to re-hire Deakin...

    Didn't Deakins say he wouldn't want to return to Bond because he achieved what he wanted to with SF? Might be making that up to be honest. I'd be up for him returning.

    And yeah, it's true that SF was a tad cheaper than the majority of Craig's films. But if I'm honest there's a case to be made that NTTD and SP's budgets were slightly too high (I understand that they were intended to be bigger films though so required a bit extra). I think EON will strip things back for the next one. I'd certainly like to see what they could do if their budget was in the $200 million or under range rather than the $250-300 million plus that the previous two films eventually looked in at.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I remember the articles saying the SF would be an almost action-less Bond film, which was equal incredible and hilarious.

    Then the teaser trailer came out.
  • Posts: 2,165
    mtm wrote: »
    Oh okay, I've completely forgotten that. It's funny how the crappy newspapers always make up some story about Bond being in crisis and yet it's all forgotten once the film came out (remember all the rubbish about Craig and Fukunaga having arguments, Craig being horribly injured, the explosion on set etc. with NTTD?).

    My favourite was that Fukunaga was absconding from set to play Red Dead Redemption 2.

    As for budgets, as with Bond, who truly knows, given product placement, tax rebates and incentives, so can only go by what wikipedia says:

    CR: $150m / $225m
    QoS: $215m / $302m
    SF: $175m / $231m
    SP: $270m / $345m
    NTTD: $275m / $326m

    Above are USD and the figures are the production year, and today, inflation adjusted.

    QoS, SP and NTTD have a reported budget range so I went down the middle.

    So under that, yes, SF was a cheaper production following QoS.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 2,165
    007HallY wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    And thats just from Babs :))
    Excellent! But you know what? Whoever it is actually won't be as good as Dan, so it'll be fair comment! Funny old world...
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind the Bonds being a tad less expensive, but I also don't want them cheap. The indulgence of high technical quality is part of the fun. ;-)
    It certainly is. It's also odd to think that there were gripes at the time that SF was being made on the cheap. Well, you'd never know to look at it, right? So yes, they could cut some costs and still get a great-looking film. Hey, if it gives them a reason to re-hire Deakin...

    Didn't Deakins say he wouldn't want to return to Bond because he achieved what he wanted to with SF? Might be making that up to be honest. I'd be up for him returning.

    And yeah, it's true that SF was a tad cheaper than the majority of Craig's films. But if I'm honest there's a case to be made that NTTD and SP's budgets were slightly too high (I understand that they were intended to be bigger films though so required a bit extra). I think EON will strip things back for the next one. I'd certainly like to see what they could do if their budget was in the $200 million or under range rather than the $250-300 million plus that the previous two films eventually looked in at.

    Interesting that the films which had significant production issues, QoS, SP and NTTD, were the most expensive.

    It’s almost as if having your script finished and locked in before starting filming was not only cheaper, but resulted in a better product… :))

    And yes, Deakins did say that:
    https://www.mi6-hq.com/news/index.php?itemid=11331
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @mallory which films have you seen where the scripts were locked? Get the shooting draft of that film, and read that "locked" script, along with the actual film. You will see that no script is "locked" until an editor and director lock the film (and even then, if your name is George Lucas, you still tinker with details, even decades later)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I'm quite surprised SF cost less: good work by them then as it made bucketloads.

    It's always a bit shocking how much less the MI films cost to make, considering they're not dissimilar, but I guess even the Craig films have more impressive grand sets etc. And Bond does make more money too.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    peter wrote: »
    @mallory which films have you seen where the scripts were locked? Get the shooting draft of that film, and read that "locked" script, along with the actual film. You will see that no script is "locked" until an editor and director lock the film (and even then, if your name is George Lucas, you still tinker with details, even decades later)

    Speaking of George Lucas, and relating the newspaper tabloids and rumors on this thread, GL said it best. “You can’t sell newspapers by saying nice things.” Honestly, after his Star Wars Prequels and Indiana Jones 4 backlash, he knows what he’s talking about. EON can arguably say the same, in more ways than one.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I've not heard that quote before; that's a good way of putting it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    I'd say there's a fair chance Bond 26 deals with AI. It's in the zeitgeist now.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I guess the issue is that software is not very visual or cinematic. To some extent the same issue with nanobots.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I know hackers often take issue with how that stuff is often represented on film, mainly because the reality is dull as dishwater.

    Maybe they can find a way to sex up AI.
  • Posts: 1,986
    echo wrote: »
    I'd say there's a fair chance Bond 26 deals with AI. It's in the zeitgeist now.

    Which is why it should probably be avoided.

  • Posts: 1,859
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess the issue is that software is not very visual or cinematic. To some extent the same issue with nanobots.

    Same could be said about news magnates. It's not the software itself, it's what the software "lives" in.
  • Bond 26’s A.I. Obsessed Villain;


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  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    After Craig, Bond goes where no Craig has gone before.
  • Posts: 1,986
    When we first meet Bond in Dr. No, he is a man without gadgets that conveniently anticipate a specific predicament. I would like to see a Bond film in which Bond is in a situation whereby he must survive by his wits without a cell phone and gadgets. No smart blood or implanted tracking chips. No one knows where he is, but he is not written off as dead and an obituary written. Perhaps he has been kidnapped. Or maybe he stumbles onto the villain by chance.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    delfloria wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess the issue is that software is not very visual or cinematic. To some extent the same issue with nanobots.

    Same could be said about news magnates. It's not the software itself, it's what the software "lives" in.

    Not really: newspapers, printing presses, TV studios etc. - they’re all quite visual.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    I could very much be wrong, but I think the current iteration of AI hype will have died down a bit by the time B26 will be released and there’s a serious chance it would look silly. Unless you purely do it as a MacGuffin where some key or USB stick holds the access or some way to „unlock“ an AI that is otherwise not present in the film. But that’s straight out of 80s action movies.. To actually have it revealed there was an AI behind it all would be groan-inducing in most variations I could think of and is always hard to depict, as has already been said.

  • Posts: 4,139
    One of my problems with SP was that the threat of the 'Nine Eyes' programme felt a bit damp even in the context of the real world. Surveillance was of course a thing on the general public's mind (although similar to what was said above I think it'd died down by SP's release) but it doesn't particularly feel scary. The film even goes to great lengths to try and amp up how threatening it is by including a 'countdown' during the finale (which seems utterly pointless to me considering it's a programme that can be taken down at any moment). From what I remember we never really see the consequences of the technology either.

    I reckon it could be a similar thing with AI. It's an enticing idea but just including it won't necessarily make a gripping story. The scriptwriters need to channel something broader - what concerns people have about this technology - and perhaps use that to come up with an alternative plot.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,383
    Yes that's a very good parallel. The surveillance thing is indeed a real world worry but never feels tangible in the film, even with all of the 'eye' themes running through it.

    The BBC's The Capture (especially Series 2) made a really excellent job of making deepfakes etc. a proper threat and is well worth a watch, but it's more of a conspiracy thriller, and I'm not sure Bond quite works for that.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 2,165
    007HallY wrote: »
    The film even goes to great lengths to try and amp up how threatening it is by including a 'countdown' during the finale (which seems utterly pointless to me considering it's a programme that can be taken down at any moment). From what I remember we never really see the consequences of the technology either.

    That is quite a big and unresolved problem with Spectre. Just what do they want to do with it. Giving Bond an obvious ADR line about them “being in control of everything” doesnt really cut it.

    Say if Spectre were going to, the minute they had control of it, lock all members out of it, so they had no intelligence gathering capability, then extorted them over it, or used it to launch an attack, or… something.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 4,139
    Mallory wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The film even goes to great lengths to try and amp up how threatening it is by including a 'countdown' during the finale (which seems utterly pointless to me considering it's a programme that can be taken down at any moment). From what I remember we never really see the consequences of the technology either.

    That is quite a big and unresolved problem with Spectre. Just what do they want to do with it. Giving Bond an obvious ADR line about them “being in control of everything” doesnt really cut it.

    Say if Spectre were going to, the minute they had control of it, lock all members out of it, so they had no intelligence gathering capability, then extorted them over it, or used it to launch an attack, or… something.

    Yes, something more tangible than just SPECTRE gaining 'intelligence' was required. To be completely honest, probably the scariest part of SP's premise for me isn't the Nine Eyes system, but the idea of an organisation like SPECTRE being able to plant people like C who can fundamentally change the nature of British Intelligence (for their own benefit) all while claiming it's 'progress'. I mean, the premise of that film is that MI5 and MI6 are merging and the 00 section about to be scrapped, which is a pretty big deal. And yet it never feels like it is for whatever reason.

    I suspect they could have done more with that premise, even getting rid of the Nine Eyes system altogether. It's more in-keeping with this version of SPECTRE to be an 'invisible presence' rather than an organisation that steals bombs or holds countries to ransom. The idea of this sort of pseudo-Illuminati slowly taking control of governments was a thread we saw anyway in QOS, so it could have been expanded here. Maybe have the climax be that SPECTRE are going to stage a terrorist attack for whatever reason just to give the third act a bit of a kick, but ultimately just run with that premise.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,208
    I'm sure this has been mentioned, but the threat of weaponized AI seems ripe for the picking for a future Bond film.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The film even goes to great lengths to try and amp up how threatening it is by including a 'countdown' during the finale (which seems utterly pointless to me considering it's a programme that can be taken down at any moment). From what I remember we never really see the consequences of the technology either.

    That is quite a big and unresolved problem with Spectre. Just what do they want to do with it. Giving Bond an obvious ADR line about them “being in control of everything” doesnt really cut it.

    Say if Spectre were going to, the minute they had control of it, lock all members out of it, so they had no intelligence gathering capability, then extorted them over it, or used it to launch an attack, or… something.

    Yes, something more tangible than just SPECTRE gaining 'intelligence' was required. To be completely honest, probably the scariest part of SP's premise for me isn't the Nine Eyes system, but the idea of an organisation like SPECTRE being able to plant people like C who can fundamentally change the nature of British Intelligence (for their own benefit) all while claiming it's 'progress'. I mean, the premise of that film is that MI5 and MI6 are merging and the 00 section about to be scrapped, which is a pretty big deal. And yet it never feels like it is for whatever reason.

    I suspect they could have done more with that premise, even getting rid of the Nine Eyes system altogether. It's more in-keeping with this version of SPECTRE to be an 'invisible presence' rather than an organisation that steals bombs or holds countries to ransom. The idea of this sort of pseudo-Illuminati slowly taking control of governments was a thread we saw anyway in QOS, so it could have been expanded here. Maybe have the climax be that SPECTRE are going to stage a terrorist attack for whatever reason just to give the third act a bit of a kick, but ultimately just run with that premise.

    That really is the part about SP that I get kind of angry about. C's plan would constitute a major change in British foreign policy and intelligence posture. This isn't just a bit of a re-shuffle. And it appears seemingly out of nowhere and then disappears just as easily because the main proponent died. It's the least important aspect of all of this, but the building alone will have cost billions of pounds and it's all treated as some minor bureaucratic shuffling due to one of the PMs mates having an idea.
    talos7 wrote: »
    I'm sure this has been mentioned, but the threat of weaponized AI seems ripe for the picking for a future Bond film.

    I don't know if it could sustain an entire film and it's a bit too much Skyfall, but there is a nice sequence in one of the comics where Bond's car starts to fight against him, because the villain gains control of it.
    I won't go into the comic too much, but it borrows heavily from Moonraker and while the problem of actually depicting AI persists, and "guy built some kind super weapon for good, turns out he's bad" is maybe a bit too overused by now, you could take that as some kind of starting point for an AI-based film. Computer wiz from some former colony becomes uber-succesful and publicly loved in the UK. Builds an AI weapons system to protect Britain. Turns out he hates the colonizers and wants to use the system to destroy England. Bond formula ensues.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The film even goes to great lengths to try and amp up how threatening it is by including a 'countdown' during the finale (which seems utterly pointless to me considering it's a programme that can be taken down at any moment). From what I remember we never really see the consequences of the technology either.

    That is quite a big and unresolved problem with Spectre. Just what do they want to do with it. Giving Bond an obvious ADR line about them “being in control of everything” doesnt really cut it.

    Say if Spectre were going to, the minute they had control of it, lock all members out of it, so they had no intelligence gathering capability, then extorted them over it, or used it to launch an attack, or… something.

    Yes, something more tangible than just SPECTRE gaining 'intelligence' was required. To be completely honest, probably the scariest part of SP's premise for me isn't the Nine Eyes system, but the idea of an organisation like SPECTRE being able to plant people like C who can fundamentally change the nature of British Intelligence (for their own benefit) all while claiming it's 'progress'. I mean, the premise of that film is that MI5 and MI6 are merging and the 00 section about to be scrapped, which is a pretty big deal. And yet it never feels like it is for whatever reason.

    I suspect they could have done more with that premise, even getting rid of the Nine Eyes system altogether. It's more in-keeping with this version of SPECTRE to be an 'invisible presence' rather than an organisation that steals bombs or holds countries to ransom. The idea of this sort of pseudo-Illuminati slowly taking control of governments was a thread we saw anyway in QOS, so it could have been expanded here. Maybe have the climax be that SPECTRE are going to stage a terrorist attack for whatever reason just to give the third act a bit of a kick, but ultimately just run with that premise.

    That really is the part about SP that I get kind of angry about. C's plan would constitute a major change in British foreign policy and intelligence posture. This isn't just a bit of a re-shuffle. And it appears seemingly out of nowhere and then disappears just as easily because the main proponent died. It's the least important aspect of all of this, but the building alone will have cost billions of pounds and it's all treated as some minor bureaucratic shuffling due to one of the PMs mates having an idea.

    The building is an issue because it's presented to us as if Bond hasn't seen it before- so he went on his holiday to Mexico after Skyfall (a short enough time for his personal affects from the house not to have been returned to him yet) and they managed to put this building up whilst he was away, effectively: even though something like that would take the best part of a decade to erect in central London!

    talos7 wrote: »
    I'm sure this has been mentioned, but the threat of weaponized AI seems ripe for the picking for a future Bond film.

    I don't know if it could sustain an entire film and it's a bit too much Skyfall, but there is a nice sequence in one of the comics where Bond's car starts to fight against him, because the villain gains control of it.
    I won't go into the comic too much, but it borrows heavily from Moonraker and while the problem of actually depicting AI persists, and "guy built some kind super weapon for good, turns out he's bad" is maybe a bit too overused by now, you could take that as some kind of starting point for an AI-based film. Computer wiz from some former colony becomes uber-succesful and publicly loved in the UK. Builds an AI weapons system to protect Britain. Turns out he hates the colonizers and wants to use the system to destroy England. Bond formula ensues.

    A rocket looks cooler though :D
    I'm being silly, but in a way serious too - a threat where devices turn against you is a bit intangible, although it can be effective. Whereas a big rocket or sun-reflecting satellite is more cinematic and memorable because it's a thing you can see, I'd say. I dunno; it's not like Bond films haven't done that sort of thing before: drugs, microchips etc. but I do struggle with this one a bit.
  • Posts: 4,139
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The film even goes to great lengths to try and amp up how threatening it is by including a 'countdown' during the finale (which seems utterly pointless to me considering it's a programme that can be taken down at any moment). From what I remember we never really see the consequences of the technology either.

    That is quite a big and unresolved problem with Spectre. Just what do they want to do with it. Giving Bond an obvious ADR line about them “being in control of everything” doesnt really cut it.

    Say if Spectre were going to, the minute they had control of it, lock all members out of it, so they had no intelligence gathering capability, then extorted them over it, or used it to launch an attack, or… something.

    Yes, something more tangible than just SPECTRE gaining 'intelligence' was required. To be completely honest, probably the scariest part of SP's premise for me isn't the Nine Eyes system, but the idea of an organisation like SPECTRE being able to plant people like C who can fundamentally change the nature of British Intelligence (for their own benefit) all while claiming it's 'progress'. I mean, the premise of that film is that MI5 and MI6 are merging and the 00 section about to be scrapped, which is a pretty big deal. And yet it never feels like it is for whatever reason.

    I suspect they could have done more with that premise, even getting rid of the Nine Eyes system altogether. It's more in-keeping with this version of SPECTRE to be an 'invisible presence' rather than an organisation that steals bombs or holds countries to ransom. The idea of this sort of pseudo-Illuminati slowly taking control of governments was a thread we saw anyway in QOS, so it could have been expanded here. Maybe have the climax be that SPECTRE are going to stage a terrorist attack for whatever reason just to give the third act a bit of a kick, but ultimately just run with that premise.

    That really is the part about SP that I get kind of angry about. C's plan would constitute a major change in British foreign policy and intelligence posture. This isn't just a bit of a re-shuffle. And it appears seemingly out of nowhere and then disappears just as easily because the main proponent died. It's the least important aspect of all of this, but the building alone will have cost billions of pounds and it's all treated as some minor bureaucratic shuffling due to one of the PMs mates having an idea.

    It's annoying because it's an idea that had a lot of potential. We've already seen SPECTRE's ability to infiltrate/control governments from QOS, and we know that there's a certain amount of hostility towards MI6 and the 00 section from M's hearings during SF. We never really get a sense of why this merge has been implemented (apart from as you said one of the PM's mates having the idea - which in itself brings up connotations of cronyism and the bad decisions which follow, which could have been relevant and interesting if handled better). We only get a brief look into other Government officials supporting this idea under a vague explanation of 'modernisation', but even that feels a bit lacking and doesn't quite give us a sense of why such a major decision would be supported.

    It doesn't help that C isn't the most nuanced of characters either. Not to say that him being an antagonist should have been a surprise, but I'm sure even a change in actor could better have sold the idea of a slick young fraudster coming in and shaking up a system/exploiting people's fears for the benefit of power (which again is quite relevant but still ambiguous enough not to fall onto any particular political 'side' if that makes sense).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Yes I'm not a massive fan of Scott.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes I'm not a massive fan of Scott.

    Yeah, it's a very on the nose casting choice. But quite frankly I've never been a fan of his in general.

    I do wonder if any of these ideas will be adapted or make their way into Bond 26. It might be interesting, for example, seeing a version of the 00 section that's been more recently formed/is less established and is at odds with other people within MI6 for various reasons. Heck, even the 'fraudster coming in and shaking up the MI6 system for their own benefit' could be redone in that sort of scenario.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes I'm not a massive fan of Scott.

    If not a massive fan of Scott, are you a moderate fan? A casual fan? A non-fan? ;)
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