Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • edited May 2023 Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    I get what you mean about TMWTGG. Still, it's one of those Bond films that I'd like to see them take elements from and 'have another go at' in the same way SF did with major ideas from TWINE.

    Yeah definitely. I think the only problem is it's really hard to improve upon the specific iconography of the Man with the Golden Gun. Considering how it's one of the weakest Bonds it's amazing how well-remembered Scaramanga is, and I think that's down to Lee and the general coolness of the gun itself, a gadget assembled from bits and pieces. He really is the alt Bond, and if they revisited it I'd almost like them to just go the whole hog and remake it (which is essentially what they did with Blofeld in Spectre I guess.. ). Or give him his own spinoff.

    Yes, such an iconic image with the golden gun, and of course Lee is an iconic actor anyway.

    I suppose for me it's a case of wanting to see how the broad plot points could be redone in another film. Just the basic idea of Bond going head to head with an assassin who has an obsession with him (and has seemingly murdered another 00 agent - a plot point that feels wasted in that film) feels like a great starting point.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    Yes, it was a bit more groundbreaking than usual. It was the first time a non action director was directing. It features one of the first recurring female characters with in-depth personalities. Overall, TWINE is more unique than people realize.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,382
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    I get what you mean about TMWTGG. Still, it's one of those Bond films that I'd like to see them take elements from and 'have another go at' in the same way SF did with major ideas from TWINE.

    Yeah definitely. I think the only problem is it's really hard to improve upon the specific iconography of the Man with the Golden Gun. Considering how it's one of the weakest Bonds it's amazing how well-remembered Scaramanga is, and I think that's down to Lee and the general coolness of the gun itself, a gadget assembled from bits and pieces. He really is the alt Bond, and if they revisited it I'd almost like them to just go the whole hog and remake it (which is essentially what they did with Blofeld in Spectre I guess.. ). Or give him his own spinoff.

    Yes, such an iconic image with the golden gun, and of course Lee is an iconic actor anyway.

    I suppose for me it's a case of wanting to see how the broad plot points could be redone in another film. Just the basic idea of Bond going head to head with an assassin who has an obsession with him (and has seemingly murdered another 00 agent - a plot point that feels wasted in that film) feels like a great starting point.

    Yeah and certainly an assassin who should be planning... an assassination! :)
    It is a good setup, and as I said before, the way into the plot with Bond apparently being his next target and M giving him time away to sort it out, and it turning out to be a traitor who is actually trying to get Bond's help... that's all really lovely stuff and a genuinely fresh way to get Bond into the story (well, maybe a twist on FRWL, but still an original one).
    But maybe people would moan about it being 'too personal'...
  • MaxCasino wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    Yes, it was a bit more groundbreaking than usual. It was the first time a non action director was directing. It features one of the first recurring female characters with in-depth personalities. Overall, TWINE is more unique than people realize.

    It was ahead of its time certainly. I actually enjoy the film quite a bit, but it’s also easy to see some of the criticisms lodged at it. Having said that, some of Brosnan’s best moments as Bond are in TWINE.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    Yes, it was a bit more groundbreaking than usual. It was the first time a non action director was directing. It features one of the first recurring female characters with in-depth personalities. Overall, TWINE is more unique than people realize.

    It was ahead of its time certainly. I actually enjoy the film quite a bit, but it’s also easy to see some of the criticisms lodged at it. Having said that, some of Brosnan’s best moments as Bond are in TWINE.

    I agree with you. I’m a bit biased, as it was my first James Bond cinematic experience. Same with Carte Blanche for the novels.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I like TWINE, but it's summed up best by the boat chase. Some wonderful exciting action, dampened by some silly camp gags. When Bond goes on road with the boat it's just daft.

    I think the female villain was a great idea but for the emotional depth it needed, it would have worked better with a different Bond
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Just don't let them see you bleed.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,382
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited May 2023 Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    “C” is the head of SIS in the real world. I honestly don’t remember Spectre we’ll enough to recall what Denbigh’s actual title was.

    The proposed merging of 5 and 6 and ‘C8 being in the mix reminded me of the 80’s British spy series The Sandbaggers, though sadly the scripts weren’t of that kind of quality.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Yes, that was it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,382
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 682
    I thought it was a reference to Sir Mansfield Smith-Cumming who was the first chief of MI6 and signed his name 'C'.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,382
    Maybe, but why would that make any sense to the audience? If M had at least introduced him as 'Chief' of the Joint Security Service it would make some sort of sense. The gag about Bond calling Cleese's character 'R' made sense because he was following Q, but I don't get why he calls him this. Why not give him a name which begins with C or something? What is the gag?
    He could just say 'I suppose we'll have to call you 'tw*t'' but why would Denbeigh agree to that?

    Anyway, I tried watching Citadel ep 4 this evening and gave up: I feel like we can at least tick Richard Madden off the list. Charisma deadzone.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 682
    I think the implication is that it does mean 'chief' but for some reason M calls him the 'head' of the Joint Security Service. I guess it was just a mistake.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,382
    Yeah, a joke needs a basis of logic to hang from, but there really is nothing there, is there? I’m kind of amazed it tricked me this long..?
  • Posts: 16,162
    I always thought Bond was calling him C .........short for the C word mostly as a jab to his personality.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I always thought Bond was calling him C .........short for the C word mostly as a jab to his personality.

    Yes, definitely this. And it would be absolutely fine if Bond had known him for more than 10 seconds. :))

    I suppose in that case, one of the film's biggest weakenesses ends up being the reason that the joke works. C is so obviously a villain from the off because of Scott's performance that we know Bond is right. If the character/performance had any sort of subtlety about them at all, it would have been very off-putting for Bond to make that personality jab so quickly.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited May 2023 Posts: 7,021
    They most likely call him C because he's the head of the New* Centre for National Security (as referred to by Tanner when taking Bond to see Q), also known as CNS (as displayed at the top of the building in the same scene), the gag being that M is the head of MI6, and C is the head of CNS. They screwed up by calling it Joint Security Service in the first scene with M, or more likely, by altering the line on a rewrite... or on set.

    I don't give a damn that C is obviously a villain from the off, because we're all aware that he is a villain from the off. Bond and M might not know he is working for Spectre at first, but they see him as an adversary right from the start... I accept the lack of subtlety because he's clearly an ass, so it's natural for him to turn out to be a full on bad guy. I also accept it because Andrew Scott is a lot of fun to watch.

    *The English subtitles on my copy of the film capitalize the word 'new' in New Centre for National Security. I don't know if this was indeed the intention of the script -- it makes more sense that Tanner is just using the word as a qualifier, rather than it being part of the name of the organization.
  • Posts: 1,078
    I never understood the 'C' line either.

    I'm still puzzling over M's "standard issue ring finger" as well.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    mattjoes wrote: »
    They most likely call him C because he's the head of the New* Centre for National Security (as referred to by Tanner when taking Bond to see Q), also known as CNS (as displayed at the top of the building in the same scene), the gag being that M is the head of MI6, and C is the head of CNS. They screwed up by calling it Joint Security Service in the first scene with M, or more likely, by altering the line on a rewrite... or on set.

    Yes, I guess that must be it. It’s very odd.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    Interestingly, the C word is a lot more offensive in the US than in the UK. Possibly that's part of the joke as Logan is American.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Well it’s pretty top shelf, last resort in both I think!
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    Since the C-word is used as a term of affection down my way, I thought Bond had put Max in the mate zone.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    QBranch wrote: »
    Since the C-word is used as a term of affection down my way, I thought Bond had put Max in the mate zone.

    :))

    I never got what makes the word so offensive, to be honest.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    There's a Billy Connoly joke, if you were in a contest to find the biggest C-word in the world, you'd come second.
    Why wouldn't I come first?
    Because you're a C-word.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Since the C-word is used as a term of affection down my way, I thought Bond had put Max in the mate zone.

    :))

    I never got what makes the word so offensive, to be honest.

    It depends on the context it's used in. I once had an interesting dilemma in an editing bay where an actor, who was fond of improv, used it twice. One was in a comedic way during a chase sequence, and the other was more vicious during a conversation scene; both were great scenes. However, because of the implications of the word (a vulgar description of a female organ) we had to cut the line during the conversation scene and find ways to make it work without the line. You're down to fine margins at that point.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    Considering the unlikely event that the producers find another actor who can take the series in a direction similar to what Daniel Craig did, is it fair to say that they will have too look at alternate direction for the series?
    When Connery departed the series, EON tried to find another actor who could emulate what Connery had done. When that didn't work, they threw everything at getting Connery back.
    After this each actor has been allowed to play the part, for the most part to their own strengths. Some better than others, but all of them have left their own mark on the series I feel.
    So is it probable that after Daniel Craig, the series moves in yet another direction?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?

    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.
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