Where does Bond go after Craig?

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Comments

  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    It's a minor blip in a film with many blips.
    Why don't the Russian submarine crew get released in TSWLM?
    We only see the British and US submariners fighting in the end batle. What happened to the Ruskis?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,382
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?

    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.

    But why would the audience know what the real head of the service is called? People in Texas aren't going to know that. And why isn't M called C in that case? He just appears to pluck a random letter out of the air. He should be D really.

    I get that it's an insult, but jokes like that only really work if there's a double meaning: that's why M's 'careless' gag at the end works. There should be a more innocuous, logical reason for him to be C before we can make c-word gags.
    I think Mattjoes' explanation about him being head of CNS is probably more on the money, they just slipped up in the scene.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 3,152
    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.
    Yes, it's this. Bond's explicitly maintaining boundaries. It's a way to demonstrate that C's not going to be able to inveigle him into anything. Despite what's just happened with M, Bond's not going to be lulled by C's smarm.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    I think too much is made about the C joke in SP. It didn't work as some would've liked, though from the get go, Max Denbigh is clearly made out to be a villain. Only an idiot would fail to see this.
    It's not like he's a major recurring character in the Bond series. Pretty sure he's not reappearing in Bond 26.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?

    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.

    But why would the audience know what the real head of the service is called? People in Texas aren't going to know that. And why isn't M called C in that case? He just appears to pluck a random letter out of the air. He should be D really.

    I get that it's an insult, but jokes like that only really work if there's a double meaning: that's why M's 'careless' gag at the end works. There should be a more innocuous, logical reason for him to be C before we can make c-word gags.
    I think Mattjoes' explanation about him being head of CNS is probably more on the money, they just slipped up in the scene.

    I think it’s just a case of the filmmakers having British audiences in mind first over US audiences. In SF there’s the moment where Bond refers to Q still having “spots”, which is not a term used in the US.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?

    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.

    But why would the audience know what the real head of the service is called? People in Texas aren't going to know that. And why isn't M called C in that case? He just appears to pluck a random letter out of the air. He should be D really.

    I get that it's an insult, but jokes like that only really work if there's a double meaning: that's why M's 'careless' gag at the end works. There should be a more innocuous, logical reason for him to be C before we can make c-word gags.
    I think Mattjoes' explanation about him being head of CNS is probably more on the money, they just slipped up in the scene.

    I think it’s just a case of the filmmakers having British audiences in mind first over US audiences. In SF there’s the moment where Bond refers to Q still having “spots”, which is not a term used in the US.

    But you know what he's referring too right?
    Afterall, Bond is and should remain an English character.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,382
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?

    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.

    But why would the audience know what the real head of the service is called? People in Texas aren't going to know that. And why isn't M called C in that case? He just appears to pluck a random letter out of the air. He should be D really.

    I get that it's an insult, but jokes like that only really work if there's a double meaning: that's why M's 'careless' gag at the end works. There should be a more innocuous, logical reason for him to be C before we can make c-word gags.
    I think Mattjoes' explanation about him being head of CNS is probably more on the money, they just slipped up in the scene.

    I think it’s just a case of the filmmakers having British audiences in mind first over US audiences. In SF there’s the moment where Bond refers to Q still having “spots”, which is not a term used in the US.

    I guess, but that's a pretty niche bit of knowledge for most people, even British ones. And as I say, it doesn't really fit with M not being called C if that's the reasoning: plus Denbeigh's job doesn't actually exist in the real world. It's a strange gag- it'd be fine if Denbeigh had given himself the name of C because he wouldn't need to explain it, but because Bond does it it becomes a bit puzzling.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Benny wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?

    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.

    But why would the audience know what the real head of the service is called? People in Texas aren't going to know that. And why isn't M called C in that case? He just appears to pluck a random letter out of the air. He should be D really.

    I get that it's an insult, but jokes like that only really work if there's a double meaning: that's why M's 'careless' gag at the end works. There should be a more innocuous, logical reason for him to be C before we can make c-word gags.
    I think Mattjoes' explanation about him being head of CNS is probably more on the money, they just slipped up in the scene.

    I think it’s just a case of the filmmakers having British audiences in mind first over US audiences. In SF there’s the moment where Bond refers to Q still having “spots”, which is not a term used in the US.

    But you know what he's referring too right?
    Afterall, Bond is and should remain an English character.

    Acne?

    I always felt that the Bond films started to feel Americanized starting with GE. Brosnan calling a lift an “elevator” in TND, Craig calling a mobile phone a “cellular phone”. With SF it felt like there was a concerted effort to bring back British vernacular.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?

    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.

    But why would the audience know what the real head of the service is called? People in Texas aren't going to know that. And why isn't M called C in that case? He just appears to pluck a random letter out of the air. He should be D really.

    I get that it's an insult, but jokes like that only really work if there's a double meaning: that's why M's 'careless' gag at the end works. There should be a more innocuous, logical reason for him to be C before we can make c-word gags.
    I think Mattjoes' explanation about him being head of CNS is probably more on the money, they just slipped up in the scene.

    I think it’s just a case of the filmmakers having British audiences in mind first over US audiences. In SF there’s the moment where Bond refers to Q still having “spots”, which is not a term used in the US.

    I guess, but that's a pretty niche bit of knowledge for most people, even British ones. And as I say, it doesn't really fit with M not being called C if that's the reasoning: plus Denbeigh's job doesn't actually exist in the real world. It's a strange gag- it'd be fine if Denbeigh had given himself the name of C because he wouldn't need to explain it, but because Bond does it it becomes a bit puzzling.

    That’s because C is M’s boss.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Not sure how hard it was for anyone to work out that 'C' was the code-letter equivalent of 'M', tbf. And 'Now we know what 'C' stands for' was a classic, especially coming deadpan from Fiennes.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Venutius wrote: »
    Not sure how hard it was for anyone to work out that 'C' was the code-letter equivalent of 'M', tbf.

    Well yeah, it fits with M and Q and all that, but it's unclear in that scene why Bond picks C of all letters, or that Denbeigh doesn't question it.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 1,985
    In what I presume is an earlier draft of the SPECTRE script, M introduces Denbeigh
    as Codename C. Bond replies. "I hope we'll be able to get a decent cup of coffee around here now." Neither this nor the final version are especially witty.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?

    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.

    But why would the audience know what the real head of the service is called? People in Texas aren't going to know that. And why isn't M called C in that case? He just appears to pluck a random letter out of the air. He should be D really.

    That's right. Who the hell is going to know that?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Benny wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?

    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.

    But why would the audience know what the real head of the service is called? People in Texas aren't going to know that. And why isn't M called C in that case? He just appears to pluck a random letter out of the air. He should be D really.

    I get that it's an insult, but jokes like that only really work if there's a double meaning: that's why M's 'careless' gag at the end works. There should be a more innocuous, logical reason for him to be C before we can make c-word gags.
    I think Mattjoes' explanation about him being head of CNS is probably more on the money, they just slipped up in the scene.

    I think it’s just a case of the filmmakers having British audiences in mind first over US audiences. In SF there’s the moment where Bond refers to Q still having “spots”, which is not a term used in the US.

    But you know what he's referring too right?
    Afterall, Bond is and should remain an English character.

    Agreed. We can change bits of his character, but he remains a British spy, no?
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Ok, but Denbigh's just been promoted so Bond saying 'I suppose we should call you 'C' now?' (emphasis on 'now') makes it explicit that 'C' is the codename that comes with the job of Head of the SIS, doesn't it?
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited May 2023 Posts: 7,021
    Venutius wrote: »
    Ok, but Denbigh's just been promoted so Bond saying 'I suppose we should call you 'C' now?' (emphasis on 'now') makes it explicit that 'C' is the codename that comes with the job of Head of the SIS, doesn't it?

    No. SIS is MI6, and in the Bond films, the head of MI6 is called M. Therefore, the line would only make sense if Bond said "I suppose we should call you M now", or if Bond's boss had been called C in the preceding films.

    But the logic is wrong anyway, because Denbigh isn't the head of SIS, but a new agency called Centre for National Security, which combines MI5 and MI6 (also known as SIS).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,382
    Venutius wrote: »
    Ok, but Denbigh's just been promoted so Bond saying 'I suppose we should call you 'C' now?' (emphasis on 'now') makes it explicit that 'C' is the codename that comes with the job of Head of the SIS, doesn't it?

    I'm with Mattjoes; it doesn't work for me either. Not least because we know the head of SIS's codename is M. And Denbeigh isn't head of SIS anyway; it's an entirely new role which never existed before (and doesn't exist in the real word) so it's unclear where Bond is getting this from. I think, as Pike said, it just needed the word 'Chief' in there.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    I think that if that joke was your biggest problem with Spectre then you are a lucky man.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Ha! No, it's not; but it's fun to discuss the minutiae of the Bond films on here- where else are you going to do it? :D
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    mattjoes wrote: »
    No. SIS is MI6

    Ah, ok, fair enough - I was under the impression that SIS included both MI5 and MI6. Good to clear that up, mattjoes. Bond's response does clearly demonstrate that Denbigh is to be called 'C' as a result of him being the head of the new combined organisation, though, right? Otherwise, it really wouldn't make sense that he would only be called 'C' 'now', ie. after him being appointed to his new role.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Other characters refer to him as C, IIRC. Mallory was the only one that spoke with Denbigh on a first name basis.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    I can't believe we're still discussing this. :-O

    Going forward, can the Bond films work on a cheaper budget, with less globetrotting?
    A more single location story perhaps. I'm not suggesting this to be the way the series should go, but a possible route. A tighter budget, with a good story would be very different too what we've had before.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I’ve always felt that TWINE was a stepping stone for the types of stories EON would tell with Craig’s Bond.

    That makes my head shoulder hurt.

    Careful: they may know exactly where to huwwrt you.

    Random question as we’ve been talking about Spectre: why does Bond call Denbigh ‘C’? I’m sure it made sense at the time, but I can’t quite work out the reasoning now…?

    Edit: (brain fart): thinly veiled profanity, calling Denbigh the c-word?

    Well yeah, but his line is “I suppose we’ll have to call you C” as if that’s next in line or short for something, abd C agrees, but it isn’t..? The joke doesn’t actually make sense, does it..?
    I love the version M makes at the end, but does the setup actually work?

    As @sandbagger1 mentioned above, “C” is the designation letter for the head of SIS in the real world. Denbigh tries to insist that Bond call him by his first name, Max. Bond never refers to his bosses by their name informally, so he prefers calling him “C”.

    But why would the audience know what the real head of the service is called? People in Texas aren't going to know that. And why isn't M called C in that case? He just appears to pluck a random letter out of the air. He should be D really.

    I get that it's an insult, but jokes like that only really work if there's a double meaning: that's why M's 'careless' gag at the end works. There should be a more innocuous, logical reason for him to be C before we can make c-word gags.
    I think Mattjoes' explanation about him being head of CNS is probably more on the money, they just slipped up in the scene.

    I think it’s just a case of the filmmakers having British audiences in mind first over US audiences. In SF there’s the moment where Bond refers to Q still having “spots”, which is not a term used in the US.

    But you know what he's referring too right?
    Afterall, Bond is and should remain an English character.

    Agreed. We can change bits of his character, but he remains a British spy, no?

    Bond should always retain his Britishness, my old friend.
  • Posts: 1,985
    Benny wrote: »
    I can't believe we're still discussing this. .

    Actually, I would like to spend several pages discussing the shoes Bond wears. (Of course I'm being snarky. I quite agree. Way too much time discussing the third letter of the alphabet.)

    But to your point, I would enjoy seeing a Bond film that appreciates London. Something Hitchcockian, perhaps along the lines of North by Northwest or The 39 Steps. I want to see Bond pursued without all the ever so convenient gadgetry that anticipates a specific dire situation.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    I like that idea. A Bond film reliant on wit and knowledge of his surroundings. Not on a gadget to get him out of danger. OHMSS is possibly the best film to do this, thus far.
    A London based Hitchockian affair would be great.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited May 2023 Posts: 7,021
    Venutius wrote: »
    Bond's response does clearly demonstrate that Denbigh is to be called 'C' as a result of him being the head of the new combined organisation, though, right? Otherwise, it really wouldn't make sense that he would only be called 'C' 'now', ie. after him being appointed to his new role.
    That's right.

    ---

    By the way, I'll be soon creating a new thread to discuss the "C-issue", as I now refer to it. There's so much more to talk about, and we need to put all our heads together to explore this important subject from every angle. I don't want this topic to continue to coexist in this thread with the talk about the future of the Bond films-- something that, quite frankly, is of secondary importance.

    Any ideas for the thread title? I've got one so far:
    "The C-issue: Were the writers of Spectre careless or just c***s?"

    (last word pronounced see-triple-asterisks)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    How bout…

    “Now we know what C stands for.”
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 16,382
    Heh! I think C is quite an interesting one to discuss, not least as he’s such a missed opportunity. I saw some folks on Twitter talking about how the role as written doesn’t give enough to Scott to do, which is kind of the opposite of my thoughts about his talents, but it’s interesting how the character fails to fulfil so many people.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,135
    mtm wrote: »
    Heh! I think C is quite an interesting one to discuss, not least as he’s such a missed opportunity. I saw some folks on Twitter talking about how the role as written doesn’t give enough to Scott to do, which is kind of the opposite of my thoughts about his talents, but it’s interesting how the character fails to fulfil so many people.

    Have you seen Fleabag @mtm ?
    Andrew Scott is pretty good in that. I think it's the writing he got for SP that let him down. From the get go, the audience know he's a bad guy. But perhaps that's the intention. We know he's bad, so let's call him C, as in the C-word.
    And we all laughed and we laughed. Or so they thought.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    Spectre wastes talent, it’s what it does.

    The London-set Bond adventure is an interesting idea. I liked the old The Avengers episode where Steed and an enemy spy are trapped in a deserted London and are hunted by a rogue team of soldiers (they remixed it for The New Avengers, iirc). I find the idea of being pursued through a city that should be bustling but is now empty very creepy and nightmare-like. Could be an interesting angle for a film.
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