Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 16,383
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Have they been doing ‘high concept crutches’? Just seems like stories to me.

    Sure they have: we've had Bond before he's Bond, grieving revenge-driven Bond, past-it Bond, Bond meets long lost evil Brother responsible for everything in the last three movies, and finally retired Bond. It's not that they're all bad by any means, but as I've said before, imo you want a steady rhythm that you break occasionally, not 'this time it's different, and nothing will ever be the same again'. I'd like to see them make Bond going on a 'standard' mission work.

    I guess.. I mean a lot of those are similar to plotlines in the books.. I don't know if I'd call OHMSS a 'high concept crutch' of a movie; it's just a story about Bond.

    You seem to be missing my point - OHMSS was a big, personal story breaking the rhythm of standard missions briefly before going back to mission-driven stories; at the moment we've got nothing but these non-standard missions with big personal themes and revelations, and there's a limit to how many times you can make these big reveals before it gets stupid.

    I dunno; they're movies- I kind of want them to be events and to have moments of import. I don't really judge a Bond movie on where it sits in the series next to 25 other films, I just want to enjoy a two-hour event in the cinema. If OHMSS had been followed by another concept-crutch movie where Bond goes out for revenge for Tracy, I don't think that would have made OHMSS by reflection.
    Besides, some time ago, i heard that Young Bond autor Charlie Higson said that the best Bond movies now ate the Mission Impossible film series, which made me think, should the next Bond films take inspiration from them? Or not?

    I love the MIs, but the only note to take from them is: 'be really exciting and tense and good'. Which isn't very helpful really! :)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    mtm wrote: »
    Have they been doing ‘high concept crutches’? Just seems like stories to me.

    Sure they have: we've had Bond before he's Bond, grieving revenge-driven Bond, past-it Bond, Bond meets long lost evil Brother responsible for everything in the last three movies, and finally retired Bond. It's not that they're all bad by any means, but as I've said before, imo you want a steady rhythm that you break occasionally, not 'this time it's different, and nothing will ever be the same again'. I'd like to see them make Bond going on a 'standard' mission work.

    It's a bit unrealistic to expect a standard mission with no personal stakes for the Bond actor to play, though. It's not a coincidence that the no personal stakes missions ended for Bond right around the time of Die Hard.
  • Posts: 1,987
    What is a concept-crutch?
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    CrabKey wrote: »
    What is a concept-crutch?

    I just mean some concept that will make the film feel significant in the series regardless of whether the film is actually any good. Comic book events from Marvel and DC have been doing it for decades, sometimes killing a major hero (only to revive him/her a few years later with equal fanfare), sometimes revealing something that will change the way the audience see previous stories (significant character turns out to have been an alien shapeshifter/robot/evil twin for years), resurrecting a previously dead character, etc. Usually something that will grab headlines but might not actually make sense, often something that will need to be undone later (see hero deaths), or something that will simply be quietly forgotten brushed under the carpet because it was considered too stupid by the readers.

    You'll often see new writers on the big Marvel titles come up with these shocking, seemingly significant events, and it so often seems to be covering for the fact that they don't think they can compete with the past landmarks without doing something shocking.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Have they been doing ‘high concept crutches’? Just seems like stories to me.

    Sure they have: we've had Bond before he's Bond, grieving revenge-driven Bond, past-it Bond, Bond meets long lost evil Brother responsible for everything in the last three movies, and finally retired Bond. It's not that they're all bad by any means, but as I've said before, imo you want a steady rhythm that you break occasionally, not 'this time it's different, and nothing will ever be the same again'. I'd like to see them make Bond going on a 'standard' mission work.

    It's a bit unrealistic to expect a standard mission with no personal stakes for the Bond actor to play, though. It's not a coincidence that the no personal stakes missions ended for Bond right around the time of Die Hard.

    But would you like it to happen?
  • Posts: 1,987
    Bond is an employee. Every mission he undertakes need not be personal. If he's a decent employee, he'll do what he's paid to do. Isn't that what most of us do?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Most of us don't have movies made about us.
  • “This time it’s personal… yet again!”
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    mtm wrote: »
    Most of us don't have movies made about us.

    LOL.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    While I don't need Bond psycho-analyzed like Nicholson in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, I agree that without at least some personal stakes, a modern Bond film would feel a bit stale. I'm not asking for a deep Bond-centric story; a little of it goes a long way. Take TLD. It's hard to ignore that Bond is making some of his mission personal, what with Koskov fooling the British, Kara's romantic charge, and the death of Saunders and all that. And yet, it's not as if Bond's past "has come back to haunt him" or whatever.

    Don't get me wrong; I like the Craig Bonds very much. But we've had our five-film Saga Of 007. I wouldn't mind a bit more "fun with Bond" and a bit less "soul of Bond" next time. But a Bond film in which 007 merely functions as the charming problem eliminator, without at least some personal considerations, however fleeting, doesn't seem interesting at all. Think about it; even in many of the older films, there is something for Bond to emotionally process. (For what it's worth, Fleming went there too, almost every time.) A completely detached Bond who merely carries out orders as a one-dimensional character feels cold and redundant.
  • Jordo007 wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    That's concerning news. Hope it resolves itself quickly for your industry mate.
    Agreed, but we should all be thankful that this strike did not happen during production.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942

    DarthDimi wrote: »
    While I don't need Bond psycho-analyzed like Nicholson in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, I agree that without at least some personal stakes, a modern Bond film would feel a bit stale. I'm not asking for a deep Bond-centric story; a little of it goes a long way. Take TLD. It's hard to ignore that Bond is making some of his mission personal, what with Koskov fooling the British, Kara's romantic charge, and the death of Saunders and all that. And yet, it's not as if Bond's past "has come back to haunt him" or whatever.

    Don't get me wrong; I like the Craig Bonds very much. But we've had our five-film Saga Of 007. I wouldn't mind a bit more "fun with Bond" and a bit less "soul of Bond" next time. But a Bond film in which 007 merely functions as the charming problem eliminator, without at least some personal considerations, however fleeting, doesn't seem interesting at all. Think about it; even in many of the older films, there is something for Bond to emotionally process. (For what it's worth, Fleming went there too, almost every time.) A completely detached Bond who merely carries out orders as a one-dimensional character feels cold and redundant.

    Oh yeah, totally. Bond naturally becomes emotionally involved to a certain degree in his missions - in Goldfinger the murder of Jill Masterson at the beginning of the film serves to set up something of a personal grudge between Bond and Goldfinger, but that’s a different thing than Goldfinger being someone of deep personal significance from 007’s past.
  • Posts: 1,987
    I had no idea that being good at what you do and doing your job without the burden of 'personal stakes' made one a one-dimensional character. The stakes can be loyalty and commitment.

  • edited September 2023 Posts: 2,266
    I don’t buy any argument that Bond films need to have personal stakes in order to be interesting, not when the franchise survived for over 40 years before those elements started to brought into the fold on a large scale. In fact, when people say that want more “personal stakes”, what I think they mean is that they want more “dramatic tension”, and in that case there’s a huge difference between a movie having dramatic tension (i.e. FRWL or TSWLM), and a movie constantly breaking down a character’s psychology to have some sort of personal stakes (i.e. The Craig Era.)

    Simply put, I’m quite tired of seeing Bond deconstructed. I won’t put all the blame on Craig’s era because the trope itself started to creep into the Bond films since at least 1989, but after Craig’s era just constantly reused the same trope, it now feels like beating a dead horse. I don’t think that criticism that’s “illegitimate” at all; in fact I think a lot of people have already stated something similar.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited September 2023 Posts: 8,395
    I don't know what course the franchise SHOULD ultimately take over the next decades, with technology moving so fast now its hard to imagine what people will be talking about in 5 years let alone 10 or 15. What I do think is that what in the IMMEDIATE future the series really needs a full on knickerbocker glory bond film with extra sprinkles, in the style of The Spy Who Loved Me or Goldeneye. Let's not forget that by the time Bond 26 is released there will be only 1 other bond film released in over a decade, and its the one where he dies at the end. To restart things with another casino royale back to basics bond which is more grounded and scaled back would be a huge mistake imo. The next film needs to bring back the bombast and exuberance of the bonds of old, on as big a scale as possible. This is why I think Christopher Nolan is all but confirmed as the director at this point, because he's the only one right now that could bring that kind of movie magic to the screen. Oppenhiemer was a barnstorming success beyond even the wildest expectations and Universal will be doing backwards cartwheels to stay in the christopher nolan business. I genuinely think he could ask for 300 million to make the next Bond and they would say yes in a heartbeat. People seem to think he is a director who only makes cerebral, psychological films and I think that gets a bit exaggerated tbh. He is first and foremost a showman, that loves to create huge event spectacles that thrill an audience. I think the fact that his schedule is clear for the next few years and nothing can move ahead until the strikes end is a opportunity and EON should be using this time to court him so that when Oppenhiemer wins big at the oscars next year they can promptly release a statement announcing that he will write/direct the next Bond film and the movie/media world will be ablaze for the next several months with discussion about potential castings etc... the movie will practically market itself!
  • Posts: 1,859
    I guess the latest rumor floating around is that talks are underway to have Nolan direct the next TWO Bond films.
  • Posts: 6,709
    Probably just rumours for all @peter has been teeling us, so kindly and repeatedly.

    But it would make me very happy if true. The franchise needs that sort of quality now, because the Craig era had it in spades, except in the writing department, which would be the only one that still merit my concern.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 1,101
    The next Bond has to be a trilogy, to complete the prophecy:
    Lazenby: 1
    Dalton: 2
    BOND 7: 3
    Brosnan: 4
    Craig: 5
    Connery: 6
    Moore: 7
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited September 2023 Posts: 693
    They should drop all personal angles entirely. Every Bond movie since LTK has involved personal stakes in one form or other, so the concept is extremely played-out by now. Do we really need another MI6 traitor, or more dialogue about Bond's/MI6's relevancy, or another villain who wants revenge against someone for some reason?

    Also, heightened dramatic stakes require really good writing and directing to pull off effectively, and unfortunately the post-Cold War Bonds have been very uneven in that regard. For every Casino Royale you have a couple Spectres and Die Another Days. Babs and MGW would be better off simply getting the fundamentals right instead of coming up with new deconstructionist experiments for each new movie.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Shouldn’t every assignment for 007 be personal? As in, the stakes will be high and a double-O agent would take all assignments personally— after all, a victory means he lives another day. A loss means almost certain death.

    Finding a personal angle will always drive up the stakes, whether it’s James Bond’s boss asking him to find out if a valued member of Blades is cheating at bridge (yes, that’s very personal to Bond, to not let down the man who he holds in the highest regard), or whether M has sent him on a suicide mission against a psychopathic murderer in Francisco Scaramanga.

    It’s all personal.



  • Posts: 6,709
    I don’t disagree. And so I think we should define the personal angles we don’t particularly like by now. Not the ones we didn’t like, but the ones we don’t want to see repeated.

    1) Going rogue/being disavowed
    2) Family being involved one way or another
    3) Someone from Mi6 being a traitor
    4) Having to prove himself still relevant
    5) …

    I’ll leave you to it :)
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 1,101
    slide_99 wrote: »
    They should drop all personal angles entirely. Every Bond movie since LTK has involved personal stakes in one form or other, so the concept is extremely played-out by now. Do we really need another MI6 traitor, or more dialogue about Bond's/MI6's relevancy, or another villain who wants revenge against someone for some reason?

    Also, heightened dramatic stakes require really good writing and directing to pull off effectively, and unfortunately the post-Cold War Bonds have been very uneven in that regard. For every Casino Royale you have a couple Spectres and Die Another Days. Babs and MGW would be better off simply getting the fundamentals right instead of coming up with new deconstructionist experiments for each new movie.

    I think that it's safe to say that Babs and Mickey are soon-to and will eventually retire and give the charge to whoever they trust for the job.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 6,709
    Yes, well, we’ve been seeing him being groomed for that effect, and he has participated in some interviews and bts, but we don’t speak about him as the new producer-to-be, and that is strange.

    Michael-G-Wilson-Gregg-Wilson.jpg

    Gregg was quite in the front seat in SP, and then seems to have disappeared a bit from interviews and bts footage from NTTD.

    BTW, here’s an interesting quote from him, according to the IMDB.

    “Christopher Nolan would be a dream choice for a future Bond director. We would of course be interested to have a discussion with him. We would like to do the same type of movie. It would be a dream to be with Nolan. But we always have an open mind when it comes to directors.”
  • peter wrote: »
    Shouldn’t every assignment for 007 be personal? As in, the stakes will be high and a double-O agent would take all assignments personally— after all, a victory means he lives another day. A loss means almost certain death.

    Finding a personal angle will always drive up the stakes, whether it’s James Bond’s boss asking him to find out if a valued member of Blades is cheating at bridge (yes, that’s very personal to Bond, to not let down the man who he holds in the highest regard), or whether M has sent him on a suicide mission against a psychopathic murderer in Francisco Scaramanga.

    It’s all personal.



    I’d have to disagree slightly. I could buy the latter example perhaps being more personal, but the example from Moonraker always came across to me as Bond doing a favor for his boss. Nothing really “personal” about it imo.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,789
    I think they could still make personal angles in a different way (something that's not connected to Bond).

    For example, there's an EU neighboring country that called for a help of Britain to help them dispatch a villain (two Prime Ministers engaged in a talk), Britain agrees, now Bond was sent to the mission, and confronted this so called villain, now it came to the knowledge of this villain that the reason Bond was there because UK's help was called and decided to interfere, now this is where things getting personal, as this villain now directly involved Britain to the mayhem by suddenly attacking it, almost killing half of British people, because Britain interfered into his schemes.

    This would put England in a positive light as a country willing to help other countries, but not knowing the danger that they would face by getting involved, so there's a personal stakes.

    So is it directly on Bond? No, Bond was just doing what MI6 had told him to do, he's being professional.

    This is Bond doing a favor for his country.

    But it became personal in the way that the villain involved something (maybe England), for interfering into his plans, it became personal, from the once not connected.

    Now this would make Bond question himself if he would still continue in the mission, to put England to safety (since England was just really out of it, if not for another country asking their help), or continue what he had started, with the villain asking him: "If you withdraw and let me do my plans, your country will be in safety again" kind of thing.

    Because this is a free decision for Bond, he could quit the mission (since England was just involved), or just continue.
  • Posts: 1,987
    Let's stop splitting hairs about personal stakes. No one is saying Bond shouldn't be personally involved with and committed to an assignment. @Univex has it right.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited September 2023 Posts: 9,509
    @007ClassicBondFan ,once Bond commits to any assignment, whether a favour or for King and Country, he's commited, doesn't want to lose, and therefore he's on a personal journey to not failhis boss, aman he holds in high esteem(whether it started out as just a favour or not).

    It's all personal.
  • Posts: 1,859
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Let's stop splitting hairs about personal stakes. No one is saying Bond shouldn't be personally involved with and committed to an assignment. @Univex has it right.

    Of course Bond is always PERSONALLY involved with a case, otherwise he would not be doing it. What we are lacking are straight forward assignments that Bond used to be given and then solves. Find the missing nuclear war heads, stop missiles from being toppled, find out who is stealing space ships, find out how Gold is being smuggled out of England, find Blofeld and kill him. Most of all...................send him out on the mission and then let him do his job without the office and staff being joined at his hip.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,588
    delfloria wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Let's stop splitting hairs about personal stakes. No one is saying Bond shouldn't be personally involved with and committed to an assignment. @Univex has it right.

    Of course Bond is always PERSONALLY involved with a case, otherwise he would not be doing it. What we are lacking are straight forward assignments that Bond used to be given and then solves. Find the missing nuclear war heads, stop missiles from being toppled, find out who is stealing space ships, find out how Gold is being smuggled out of England, find Blofeld and kill him. Most of all...................send him out on the mission and then let him do his job without the office and staff being joined at his hip.

    The issue with the latter comment about the office staff is the risk you take with casting recognizable actors. They're not going to cast Ralph Fiennes as M for a three minute briefing and then he's never seen again. Harris, Wishaw etc aren't as recognizable to a moviegoer but still in the category of not being reduced to a glorified cameo.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Do you know one of the top three questions a producer will ask in a meeting is: what are the personal stakes, and/or what is the internal/emotional struggle of the protagonist?
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