TMWTGG is a proper Bond film?

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  • edited April 2020 Posts: 11,425
    EON have always tried to get the 2nd film out super quick to establish the new actor.
    Amazing that QOS came out 2 years after CR. EON can still do it if they want to. And QOS is arguably the best film of the Craig era.

    For me it's almost like the longer the gaps the more the law of diminishing returns applies. The beauty of the Cubby era was that he cranked them out like sausages. Consistency was valued over arty pretentiousness and the result was a production line of enjoyable romps.

    I think one of the great ironies of the Craig era is that it's the film they made on the hoof, winging it and just getting the job done (QOS) that stands up as one of the best from the past 25 years.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,436
    "Good night, good night! Sleep well my dear. No need to fear....James Bond is here!"

    The song is a guilty pleasure for me. So bad it's good. I always like the way Lulu says "Who will he bang" The whole soundtrack is a bit of a recycled mess. Many of the songs sound the same or are rather slight variations.

    Hai Fat is an interesting character. He is just enough of an ego to think he's in charge and yet Scaramenga has the control. First time this has happened in a film. Similar to the dynamic between Nick Nack and Scaramanga. Nick Nack wants the fortune and hires hit men to take out his boss. He takes relish when he tricks his boss.

    I may just have to give this movie a watch again.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Getafix wrote: »
    EON have always tried to get the 2nd film out super quick to establish the new actor.
    Amazing that QOS came out 2 years after CR. EON can still do it if they want to. And QOS is arguably the best film of the Craig era.

    For me it's almost like the longer the gaps the more the law of diminishing returns applies. The beauty of the Cubby era was that he cranked them out like sausages. Consistency was valued over arty pretentiousness and the result was a production line of enjoyable romps.

    I think one of the great ironies of the Craig era is that it's the film they made on the hoof, winging it and just getting the job done (QOS) that stands up as one of the best from the past 25 years.


    Your take on it is interesting, but I suppose you are aware that you are in a clear minority regarding QoS as Craig's best? Even in the camp of QoS fans I think you would find almost no one who rank it above CR and probably very few who regard it as a better film than SF. Personally I really wish they hadn't rushed the production. I like the film as it is, but I think it could have been considerably better with a finished, revamped script.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 11,425
    jobo wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    EON have always tried to get the 2nd film out super quick to establish the new actor.
    Amazing that QOS came out 2 years after CR. EON can still do it if they want to. And QOS is arguably the best film of the Craig era.

    For me it's almost like the longer the gaps the more the law of diminishing returns applies. The beauty of the Cubby era was that he cranked them out like sausages. Consistency was valued over arty pretentiousness and the result was a production line of enjoyable romps.

    I think one of the great ironies of the Craig era is that it's the film they made on the hoof, winging it and just getting the job done (QOS) that stands up as one of the best from the past 25 years.


    Your take on it is interesting, but I suppose you are aware that you are in a clear minority regarding QoS as Craig's best? Even in the camp of QoS fans I think you would find almost no one who rank it above CR and probably very few who regard it as a better film than SF. Personally I really wish they hadn't rushed the production. I like the film as it is, but I think it could have been considerably better with a finished, revamped script.

    The problem with the approach you advocate is that it leads to fewer and fewer Bond films with no discernable improvement in quality.

    Does QOS have faults? Yes, of course it does. But would I rather have had 6 films of QOS quality over the past 12 year or the 2 dubious Mendes efforts and my answer is give me the 6 movies.

    None (or very few) of the Bond films are perfect. They aren't supposed to be either. They are a special kind of popcorn movie. That doesn't mean to say care, talent and huge effort hasn't gone into making them, but they're not supposed to bear comparison with the latest Terrence Malick film.

    The fun rather goes out of being a Bond fan with gaps like we've seen recently. Craig probably should have wrapped his 6th film in 2016 and handed over the baton back then.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited April 2020 Posts: 7,136
    jobo wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    EON have always tried to get the 2nd film out super quick to establish the new actor.
    Amazing that QOS came out 2 years after CR. EON can still do it if they want to. And QOS is arguably the best film of the Craig era.

    For me it's almost like the longer the gaps the more the law of diminishing returns applies. The beauty of the Cubby era was that he cranked them out like sausages. Consistency was valued over arty pretentiousness and the result was a production line of enjoyable romps.

    I think one of the great ironies of the Craig era is that it's the film they made on the hoof, winging it and just getting the job done (QOS) that stands up as one of the best from the past 25 years.


    Your take on it is interesting, but I suppose you are aware that you are in a clear minority regarding QoS as Craig's best? Even in the camp of QoS fans I think you would find almost no one who rank it above CR and probably very few who regard it as a better film than SF. Personally I really wish they hadn't rushed the production. I like the film as it is, but I think it could have been considerably better with a finished, revamped script.

    I would second @Getafix on QOS being Craig's best, though I'll keep the details for another thread.

    Regarding TMWTGG, another thing I like about it, is its score. Some consider it a lesser effort of Barry's, but I think there are some excellent cues in there. Tracks like Getting the Bullet, Hip's Trip, Chew Me in Grisly Land, In Search of Scaramanga's Island and especially both tracks in the funhouse (PTS and climax) are very atmospherical.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    Being a lesser Barry effort still puts the score in the distinguished position of being better than at least 75% of other scores, so it's never been too much of an issue for me.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    TMWTGG's score is good.....Barry coming up with such in just 3weeks shows he's some genius....even if it's not his best score...I feel the score really reflects the Oriental atmosphere in the film.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 7,507
    Getafix wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    EON have always tried to get the 2nd film out super quick to establish the new actor.
    Amazing that QOS came out 2 years after CR. EON can still do it if they want to. And QOS is arguably the best film of the Craig era.

    For me it's almost like the longer the gaps the more the law of diminishing returns applies. The beauty of the Cubby era was that he cranked them out like sausages. Consistency was valued over arty pretentiousness and the result was a production line of enjoyable romps.

    I think one of the great ironies of the Craig era is that it's the film they made on the hoof, winging it and just getting the job done (QOS) that stands up as one of the best from the past 25 years.


    Your take on it is interesting, but I suppose you are aware that you are in a clear minority regarding QoS as Craig's best? Even in the camp of QoS fans I think you would find almost no one who rank it above CR and probably very few who regard it as a better film than SF. Personally I really wish they hadn't rushed the production. I like the film as it is, but I think it could have been considerably better with a finished, revamped script.

    The problem with the approach you advocate is that it leads to fewer and fewer Bond films with no discernable improvement in quality.

    Does QOS have faults? Yes, of course it does. But would I rather have had 6 films of QOS quality over the past 12 year or the 2 dubious Mendes efforts and my answer is give me the 6 movies.

    None (or very few) of the Bond films are perfect. They aren't supposed to be either. They are a special kind of popcorn movie. That doesn't mean to say care, talent and huge effort hasn't gone into making them, but they're not supposed to bear comparison with the latest Terrence Malick film.

    The fun rather goes out of being a Bond fan with gaps like we've seen recently. Craig probably should have wrapped his 6th film in 2016 and handed over the baton back then.


    Which approach exactly have I been advocating? I certainly think EON should be able to churn out films at least every three years and ideally every two years. The only thing it would require is less of the behind the scenes drama we have had during the last decade which I think is not too much to ask for. Writing a decent script and complete a film production in two years, or three at the most, is really not that difficult and should not diminish quality.

    What surprised me was that you hailed QoS of all films as a template. That one for me illustrates the exact opposite example of when a film was hit by unforeseen problems and most probably should have been patiently delayed.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 11,425
    I suppose I was arguing against delaying or dragging out production to make the films "perfect". Many of the Bond films have had production challenges and could have been delayed. I think FRWL was one of them. Often I think the pressure of a tight schedule and the need to just hid the deadline delivers a better result than drawn out productions with endless rewrites. Was SP better for the delays to get the script "right"? IMO QOS is the better film despite it's limitations.

    Ideally we would have better writers than P&W but you can't polish a turd. Just make the film and be done with it. Dragging things out just drains the production of any energy and fun. SP is a prime example.

    LALD and TMWTGG are not the best in the series but I am happier to have them than any number of SF or SP type films made once every 3, 4 or 5 years.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 7,507
    On that part we agree.

    The situation with endless delays we have seen during the last decade have been peculiar, and it hasn´t really had to do with patient perfectionism at all. I once read an article by a writer who argued the succes of Skyfall was proof that longer productions and ´patient crafting´ as he put it was the way to go forward. The whole thesis didn´t make sense at all. Of the four years between QoS and Skyfall, only two of them were used to make the film, the other two were spent in a courtroom arguing about ownership rights. With Spectre, one year was wasted simply waiting for a director to finish other jobs. The quality of the two films notwithstanding (that is an endless debate I don´t want to get into here), the notion that a great Bond film requires at least three years of production is not based on any substancial evidence.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    EON have always tried to get the 2nd film out super quick to establish the new actor.
    Amazing that QOS came out 2 years after CR. EON can still do it if they want to. And QOS is arguably the best film of the Craig era.

    For me it's almost like the longer the gaps the more the law of diminishing returns applies. The beauty of the Cubby era was that he cranked them out like sausages. Consistency was valued over arty pretentiousness and the result was a production line of enjoyable romps.

    I think one of the great ironies of the Craig era is that it's the film they made on the hoof, winging it and just getting the job done (QOS) that stands up as one of the best from the past 25 years.

    They initially flirted with the idea of making CR and QoS back to back, and then even bringing it out in May 2008.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,436
    One thing that I really wish the producers had avoided was bringing Sherriff Pepper back in this movie! I guess he was a big hit with the fans at the time. I just find his appearance here jarring. Why would he be in a car dealership? LOL! Shoehorning at it's worst.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I love the TMWTGG score. It relies a lot on the title theme, but it's a great composition, so I'm fine with it, and it's presented in a variety of styles anyway. The rest of the music is often very beautiful and even ethereal (Andrea on the shower, Bond vs. Chula). I also really like the song. Cooper's song is good as well, and a viable title song for sure, though I do miss hearing a more prominent orchestral touch in its arrangement.

    I think I probably even prefer the TMWTGG score to, say, the YOLT score.

    thedove wrote: »
    One thing that I really wish the producers had avoided was bringing Sherriff Pepper back in this movie! I guess he was a big hit with the fans at the time. I just find his appearance here jarring. Why would he be in a car dealership? LOL! Shoehorning at it's worst.
    Seems like he didn't particularly want to be there in Bangkok. Must've been the wife's idea. So maybe he was so bored with the culture of Thailand that he decided to look at American cars!
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 17,759
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I think I probably even prefer the TMWTGG score to, say, the YOLT score.

    I think I agree with this. There are some nice standout tracks on YOLT, but as a whole, I probably prefer TMWTGG. It's not spectacular (in Barry standards), but it's consistent.
    mattjoes wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    One thing that I really wish the producers had avoided was bringing Sherriff Pepper back in this movie! I guess he was a big hit with the fans at the time. I just find his appearance here jarring. Why would he be in a car dealership? LOL! Shoehorning at it's worst.
    Seems like he didn't particularly want to be there in Bangkok. Must've been the wife's idea. So maybe he was so bored with the culture of Thailand that he decided to look at American cars!

    That's how I've always thought about that scene. Also, some people can't help themselves going to a car dealership just to look at cars.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I think I probably even prefer the TMWTGG score to, say, the YOLT score.

    I think I agree with this. There are some nice standout tracks on YOLT, but as a whole, I probably prefer TMWTGG. It's not spectacular (in Barry standards), but it's consistent.

    Agreed. TMWTGG is a nice listen that brings you in the right atmosphere. YOLT is a bit more bombastic and therefore not as easy to listen too on its own. For me, that is, of course.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,436
    I find the TMWTGG score to be a lazy affair. YOLT captures the Space scenes and action and then also shows Asian musical influences in the Earth bound scenes. I think it's a great work and the YOLT theme song blows away TMWTGG theme song. But to each their own.

    I suppose one could say that Sherriff Pepper might have been checking out cars while away. I find the whole set up daft. They are in a showroom and the showroom car just happens to have keys in it. Pepper is just sitting in the passenger side of the vehicle. But it is still great fun and the chase is interesting.
  • Posts: 17,759
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I think I probably even prefer the TMWTGG score to, say, the YOLT score.

    I think I agree with this. There are some nice standout tracks on YOLT, but as a whole, I probably prefer TMWTGG. It's not spectacular (in Barry standards), but it's consistent.

    Agreed. TMWTGG is a nice listen that brings you in the right atmosphere. YOLT is a bit more bombastic and therefore not as easy to listen too on its own. For me, that is, of course.

    Definitely agree. I feel that the TMWTGG score works slightly better within the film itself as well. I've never been too much a fan of the YOLT score in the first place, though.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 3,327
    thedove wrote: »
    I find the TMWTGG score to be a lazy affair. YOLT captures the Space scenes and action and then also shows Asian musical influences in the Earth bound scenes. I think it's a great work and the YOLT theme song blows away TMWTGG theme song. But to each their own.

    I suppose one could say that Sherriff Pepper might have been checking out cars while away. I find the whole set up daft. They are in a showroom and the showroom car just happens to have keys in it. Pepper is just sitting in the passenger side of the vehicle. But it is still great fun and the chase is interesting.

    Pepper ruins both films he appears in, but I remember those scenes being great to watch as a kid.

    Once you get older and watch the boat chase from LALD and the car chase from TMWTGG again, you see exactly where the inspiration came from for the 70's Hal Needham/Burt Reynold's Smokey and the Bandit series. Pepper is basically Jackie Gleason's Sheriff Buford T Justice.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    While I appreciate Clifton James' acting very much--he was a southerner--I'm inclined to agree. His LALD appearance could have been a lot shorter, and his TMWTGG cameo didn't need to happen at all.

    @jetsetwilly, it is interesting to think about scenes that are put in specifically to appeal to the kids in the audience. I'm thinking of Jaws dropping the stone on his foot, and the whole Piazza San Marco sequence.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I've liked Barry's TMWTGG score for years and never understood the indifference or dislike of it. No, it doesn't rank up with most of his Bond scores, but I definitely prefer it to AVTAK's, which aside from the title song I find vastly overrated in the fan community. I'm so glad Barry went out with on a great note, so to speak, with TLD.

    I also used to prefer it to the MR score, although it has grown on me more over the years considering some of its memorable tracks never made the soundtrack album such as the gunbarrel, the precredits and Venice canal chase.

    TMWTGG's theme lends itself to both the action scenes - Let's Go Get 'em has always been a favorite of mine, I've exceeded the speed limit numerous times to that track - and the romantic scenes. Then there's the rousing jazz version of the theme which is just fun to listen to. Barry was a master at the theme variation and the modern scores sorely miss that.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I've liked Barry's TMWTGG score for years and never understood the indifference or dislike of it. No, it doesn't rank up with most of his Bond scores, but I definitely prefer it to AVTAK's, which aside from the title song I find vastly overrated in the fan community. I'm so glad Barry went out with on a great note, so to speak, with TLD.

    I also used to prefer it to the MR score, although it has grown on me more over the years considering some of its memorable tracks never made the soundtrack album such as the gunbarrel, the precredits and Venice canal chase.

    TMWTGG's theme lends itself to both the action scenes - Let's Go Get 'em has always been a favorite of mine, I've exceeded the speed limit numerous times to that track - and the romantic scenes. Then there's the rousing jazz version of the theme which is just fun to listen to. Barry was a master at the theme variation and the modern scores sorely miss that.

    My Sentiments exactly....l also like 'Let's Go Get 'Em'....it's a perfect example of how a Composer can weave the title song into the Bond theme. It's a very Rich Sounding Score. Scaramanga also has his own theme that isn't part of the title Song....tracks like 'Death Of Hai Fat' , 'In Search Of Scaramanga's Island', 'The Solex, etc all Contain that theme.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    About the YOLT and TMWTGG scores: I find the quieter, less melodic moments of the latter score more compelling than the similar moments in the former. I also find the romantic arrangement of TMWTGG slightly more pleasant than the YOLT one. It's the reverb of CTS Wembley and the silkier sound of the strings.

    These are just a couple of things that come to mind in comparing both soundtracks.
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