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SPECTRE: Can it receive universal praise?

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  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    patb wrote: »
    I think it's asking too much of the audience to switch emotions so quickly. In the PTS scene, Bond is meant to be running for his life. What emotions are the director/scriptwriter wanting us to feel? Bond is meant to be in a serious situation (or that's my take) and then they throw in a visual gag that changes the mood completely.

    Agreed, it’s too Moore for a Craig film
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,302
    Yes!

    https://imgflip.com/i/2nuuyz
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,034
    I don't mind the visual gag about the sofa. I do mind that it still looks like CGI, which of course it is. But there had been worse offences in that regard before, so let's just say it is lacking.
  • PropertyOfALadyPropertyOfALady Colders Federation CEO
    Posts: 3,675
    Wait, what? The couch was CGI?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    patb wrote: »
    I think it's asking too much of the audience to switch emotions so quickly. In the PTS scene, Bond is meant to be running for his life. What emotions are the director/scriptwriter wanting us to feel? Bond is meant to be in a serious situation (or that's my take) and then they throw in a visual gag that changes the mood completely.

    Isn't this what most Bond films do? Cool action scene in LTK gets interrupted by half a dozen baddies covered in dust. Or Victor Tourjansky interrupting the ski chase in FYEO with his bottle. Remember Bond fleeing from trigger-happy bad guys in a helicopter in TND and suddenly we're zooming in on a prostitute? Or Koskov's highly dramatic defection via 'pig' with Dalton playing it dead serious and 'Rosita' sticking the supervisor's head where most men hear angels sing.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2018 Posts: 23,883
    JamesBondKenya wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    I think it's asking too much of the audience to switch emotions so quickly. In the PTS scene, Bond is meant to be running for his life. What emotions are the director/scriptwriter wanting us to feel? Bond is meant to be in a serious situation (or that's my take) and then they throw in a visual gag that changes the mood completely.

    Agreed, it’s too Moore for a Craig film
    This is my view as well. We had been asked to come along with Craig for his ride, from rookie to seasoned veteran. His trajectory has always had an element of seriousness to it, despite the cynical and sardonic humour thrown in from time to time (most notably in SF). That style works for Craig.

    The humour in SP seemed tonally out of place to me in the context of the Craig story and as I mentioned earlier, I don't think he sells it well. This sort of thing has to come from within. It cannot be acted and it cannot appear to be acted.

    What worked perfectly for Moore and Connery just didn't seem believable in the Craig world, for me at least.

    I'm happy that it worked for many. That is what the film makers and particularly Craig (who promised more 'irony' and wanted to inject more 'Moore', in his own words) hoped would happen.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @bondjames, "wanted to inject more 'Moore'" I don't think are DC's words. He's quoted as wanting to "re-claim some of the irony" of the past films:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/10271162/Daniel-Craig-wants-to-lighten-up-Bond-24.html


    And then the article made their own (bizarre) assessment that SF "culminated with Daniel Craig’s Bond transforming into an agent more reminiscent of the Bond played by Roger Moore, who was a master of the perfectly timed one-liner. Craig's recent comments suggest he may take this rebirth even further in the new film, moving away from his own gritty depiction of 007."

    There's also this article:

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/aug/28/daniel-craig-james-bond-irony

    where he "admits cheesy one-liners may not be his forte."

    "Hopefully we'll reclaim some of the old irony," he said, "and make sure it doesn't become pastiche." Craig added: "I can't do shtick, I'm not very good at it. Unless it kind of suddenly makes sense. Does that make sense? I sometimes wish I hammed it up more, but I just can't do it very well, so I don't do it."

    (his self-criticism is bang-on)

    I'd be interested to see/read if he actually said he wanted more Moore in his films. I remember Mendes referencing Moore more than Craig. But correct me if I'm wrong.

    This is an interesting interview with him: https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/23156/daniel-craig-interview-skyfall-humour-in-bond-movies-more

    Love what he says about Fleming:

    (the question was asked:) With your character being more complex, more tortured, were you trying to turn the clock back to Connery?

    No, just Fleming. It’s in the books. I mean, Fleming was conflicted about him - he tried to kill him off two or three times in the stories. And you just read those. He’s conflicted, but it’s about when he’s knocked down, and how he gets up. He takes a lot of battering, Bond, and so he should - he’s an agent, and he’s up to that. But it’s how he stands up to adversity, and how he stands up in situations where he’s one against many, usually. As long as we can keep that interesting, and how he deals with those situations, then it’s worth making the movies.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Daniel Craig wrote:
    No, just Fleming. It’s in the books. I mean, Fleming was conflicted about him - he tried to kill him off two or three times in the stories. And you just read those. He’s conflicted, but it’s about when he’s knocked down, and how he gets up. He takes a lot of battering, Bond, and so he should - he’s an agent, and he’s up to that. But it’s how he stands up to adversity, and how he stands up in situations where he’s one against many, usually. As long as we can keep that interesting, and how he deals with those situations, then it’s worth making the movies.

    And while I agree with that, Daniel, I also wish we could just get to a TB or GF for the modern times, at least once...
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Daniel Craig wrote:
    No, just Fleming. It’s in the books. I mean, Fleming was conflicted about him - he tried to kill him off two or three times in the stories. And you just read those. He’s conflicted, but it’s about when he’s knocked down, and how he gets up. He takes a lot of battering, Bond, and so he should - he’s an agent, and he’s up to that. But it’s how he stands up to adversity, and how he stands up in situations where he’s one against many, usually. As long as we can keep that interesting, and how he deals with those situations, then it’s worth making the movies.

    And while I agree with that, Daniel, I also wish we could just get to a TB or GF for the modern times, at least once...

    I could be wrong, very wrong, but I just don’t see that DC’s last will be huge in scope the same way that these three films were (that’s not to say that I think we’re getting some small indie film either. I just think DC’s final film will be more in line with CR/SF).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2018 Posts: 23,883
    peter wrote: »
    @bondjames, "wanted to inject more 'Moore'" I don't think are DC's words. He's quoted as wanting to "re-claim some of the irony" of the past films:
    It's apparently a direct quote.

    In other words, Craig's initial reluctance to let Bond's backstory bleed into Spectre – and to cut back on the angst in favour of, as he puts it to me, "more Moore", invoking the jollity of Roger Moore-era Bond – didn't survive much past the first script meeting. "I think I'd just got it into my head that flamboyance was the way forward and fuck it, nothing touched him. But as we got into the story and rooted out the connections, they were too good to leave alone."

    https://www.esquire.com/uk/culture/film/news/a8782/daniel-craig-interview/
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    ugh, then he should go back to his earlier beliefs: he can't ham it up and do one liners. I hope they learned their lesson.

    I think they did.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Obviously, as @bondjames pointed out, some of us see things quite differently regarding the effectiveness of the humor in the latest Bond film. However, I do think plenty of us will agree the Bond films need to go for a lighter tone, as the serious stuff is getting a bit boring. With that in mind, Craig's interest in "more Moore" is certainly not entirely misguided.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    He should stick with the humour he's good at and the humour that worked for the better part of three out of his four films-- he's more sardonic and flippant. One liners, sight gags just aren't in his wheelhouse.

    And this comes from someone who has defended SP: the first time watching it, and DC landed on the couch, I was pulled out of the film, and there was a conscious thought in my head (Oh no, why did they do that??).
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I don't care about the tonal shift, I was simply bored. Eyes getting heavy and closing during the first viewing of a new Bond film is not a good sign.

    Few too many doobies.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Cuff-link adjustment in SF anyone? I liked THAT too!
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,969
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Cuff-link adjustment in SF anyone? I liked THAT too!

    Now that is a great moment - always reminds me of Brosnan's tie adjustments, which I also loved.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Cuff-link adjustment in SF anyone? I liked THAT too!

    Now that is a great moment - always reminds me of Brosnan's tie adjustments, which I also loved.

    The underwater one in TWINE was a bit much for me, I have to admit. But I smile anyway.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,969
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Cuff-link adjustment in SF anyone? I liked THAT too!

    Now that is a great moment - always reminds me of Brosnan's tie adjustments, which I also loved.

    The underwater one in TWINE was a bit much for me, I have to admit. But I smile anyway.

    Definite cheese, but it always makes me smirk.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2018 Posts: 17,798
    I gotta say, landing on the couch in SP was probably the biggest LOL small moment I ever had in a Bond movie. Mostly because of Craig's face. I was dyin'....
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I gotta say, landing on the couch in SP was probably the biggest LOL small moment I ever had in a Bond movie. Mostly because of Craig's face. I was dyin'....
    Very funny moment. Everyone in the theatre laughed.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,302
    By the sofa I think the recycled score had already showed up so I was already pulled out of the movie...
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited December 2018 Posts: 25,120
    The first two films I think are accepted universally.

    SP is garbage IMO
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Another out of place thing was the weird “slide whistle” type sound when the helicopter flips
  • vzokvzok
    Posts: 4,044
    JamesBondKenya wrote: »
    Another out of place thing was the weird “slide whistle” type sound when the helicopter flips

    In defence of Thomas Newman (who knew?) that isn't a slide whistle. It's some gentle flute I think.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited December 2018 Posts: 2,541
    Yes he used that in skyfall as well in 2 or 3 tracks but Unlike spectre skyfall flute sounds were elegant.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,756
    echo wrote: »
    By the sofa I think the recycled score had already showed up so I was already pulled out of the movie...

    Good point.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    The first two films I think are accepted universally.

    I don t have that impression regarding QOS.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    I honestly think QOS has gotten more accepted over the years. Like OHMSS and LTK, it's steadily climbing up in many people's lists, including mine.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,034
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    The first two films I think are accepted universally.

    I don t have that impression regarding QOS.
    Neither have I. On the IMDb board I actually found myself defending it against most others, while still hating the guts of its editing and ranking it in the lower half of my Bond list. Which is part of why I have been thrilled by the brilliant SF from the beginning.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    No Bond film is universally praised, but of the Craig films, only CR gets close around here.
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