Where would you rank SPECTRE? (no spoilers)

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Comments

  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    edited March 2016 Posts: 4,423



    Dr. Swann called Bond "a good man," and that is a first in the Bond series. There have been times, particularly from GE on, where the films portray Bond as a profoundly flawed anti-hero. I was happy to see a character finally come out and praise Bond's fundamental goodness. This was overdue.

    Quite. Despite Bond's flaws, he is a fundamentally good person, being courageous and incorruptible. To me that is what makes the Bond persona so diverting. The dichotomy of the good/bad conflict.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    royale65 wrote: »



    Dr. Swann called Bond "a good man," and that is a first in the Bond series. There have been times, particularly from GE on, where the films portray Bond as a profoundly flawed anti-hero. I was happy to see a character finally come out and praise Bond's fundamental goodness. This was overdue.

    Quite. Despite Bond's flaws, he is a fundamentally good person, being courageous and incorruptible. To me that is what makes the Bond persona so diverting. The dichotomy of the good/bad conflict.
    Yes. And why Bourne & Hunt just can't compete even with some technically better films.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    The good man line was just really silly.
    Bond is an anti-hero, an assassin.

    You're being short-sighted. Khan is right. Underneath it all there's a man doing what he thinks is right. Bond didn't like killing in the books, but he knew it had to be done. He's not a see you next Tuesday. Never has been, never will.
  • Posts: 2,483
    The good man line was just really silly.
    Bond is an anti-hero, an assassin.

    Being an assassin doesn't mean one cannot be good. It depends upon the cause behind the assassination. I contend that Bond, going all the way back to Fleming's Casino Royale, is a fundamentally good person.

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    The good man line was just really silly.
    Bond is an anti-hero, an assassin.

    Being an assassin doesn't mean one cannot be good. It depends upon the cause behind the assassination. I contend that Bond, going all the way back to Fleming's Casino Royale, is a fundamentally good person.

    Totally agree.
  • ?
    Bond is an assassin that does good things.
    But he is an anti-hero.
  • Posts: 4,044
    GBF wrote: »
    I am still so surprised that Spectre is so loved by so many Bond fans. What is so good about that film? I can't see it. I mean the action is quiet good but we have had most of it - and in a better executed way - in other Bond or other action films. Are there any interesting characters? I don't find them. Does anyone really thinks the villain or the henchman are among the very best in their respective category. Who cares for the Bond girls? Sciarra could have become very intersting but she suddenly jsut disappeared, Swann was for 95% the damsel in distress. She is very good looking but does not really do anything and is one of the few Bond girls who need to be rescued several times in the film. I don't tink people will remember her that well in the future. In fact, most of the characters are really wasted. You could have done so much more out of them. The plot however is the biggest issue that I have with the film. Imo they just copied everything together from several othe Bond films and MI. It really feels as if they were running out of ideas. Was there really any creative plot point when you thought "this is really a creative idea". I was really missing any of these creative moments. Just think of the horrible escape scene from the crater. I really thought "Ok they have no idea how Bond is able to escape this place, so let's just make the terminator out of him" The same applies to the final scene and the whole step brother story arc. This would not even have worked in the more ironic Brosnan films that have taken themselves not to seriously. And Spectre despite its very silly and uncreative moments doesn't have this ironic style. It still feels very serious most of the time. Maybe it's just because Craig still plays the same emotionless character he played in all his Bond films. For me this just doesn't work.

    Spectre certainly didn't feel fresh in the way that CR did. However, if you look critically at the whole series you can level a lot of these criticisms at other Bond movies too.

    Spectre may seem to copy from previous movies, but SWLM is a re-run of YOLT, MR is a redo of SWLM, DAD is a redo of DAF, AVTAK copies GF etc.

    There are probably a lot of points in Spectre where people can feel it could be better, but I wonder if people tend to be as critical about the other Bond movies.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    ?
    Bond is an assassin that does good things.
    But he is an anti-hero.

    Doing good things and being a good man are two different things. Unless you just see things in black and white, in which case this is a redundant conversation.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I think it might be the case, that during war many good men have to do terrible things.
    As Bond is constantly on a war footing defending Queen and country. He is a good man
    who when needed does what's needed, he is the " Blunt instrument " .
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    GBF wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    I am still so surprised that Spectre is so loved by so many Bond fans. What is so good about that film? I can't see it. I mean the action is quiet good but we have had most of it - and in a better executed way - in other Bond or other action films. Are there any interesting characters? I don't find them. Does anyone really thinks the villain or the henchman are among the very best in their respective category. Who cares for the Bond girls? Sciarra could have become very intersting but she suddenly jsut disappeared, Swann was for 95% the damsel in distress. She is very good looking but does not really do anything and is one of the few Bond girls who need to be rescued several times in the film. I don't tink people will remember her that well in the future. In fact, most of the characters are really wasted. You could have done so much more out of them. The plot however is the biggest issue that I have with the film. Imo they just copied everything together from several othe Bond films and MI. It really feels as if they were running out of ideas. Was there really any creative plot point when you thought "this is really a creative idea". I was really missing any of these creative moments. Just think of the horrible escape scene from the crater. I really thought "Ok they have no idea how Bond is able to escape this place, so let's just make the terminator out of him" The same applies to the final scene and the whole step brother story arc. This would not even have worked in the more ironic Brosnan films that have taken themselves not to seriously. And Spectre despite its very silly and uncreative moments doesn't have this ironic style. It still feels very serious most of the time. Maybe it's just because Craig still plays the same emotionless character he played in all his Bond films. For me this just doesn't work.

    Emotionless? I believe he sheds a tear in Skyfall, is visibly distraught at Vesper's death, gets angry and moody in Quantum of Solace - he's probably the most emotional Bond yet, so much so people are even calling him 'emo Bond'. And so much so that people on here are complaining about it.

    "emotionless" is certainly the wrong word. I am completely with you that Craig is an emotional Bond. The thing is: He is always in the same mood and that is what annoys me. Even when he smiles it seems forced to me. The expressions on his face do not vary that much. All other Bond actors had not been that emotional but showed more than one dimensions. There were times when they were happy and times when they were sad, charming or angry. They could be a cold blooded killer but also a gentle man. For me Craig never really got rid of the character who is first of all a cold blooded assassin who is permanently in a bad mood.

    I think the point is that Bond isn't supposed to be some cheerful chap, Moore and Brosnan might have played it that way and to some degree Connery but Craig has been about showing a more layered and conflicted Bond.

    In reality Bond wouldn't be wise cracking playboy and Dalton was just as moody as Craig if not more so because he has no ability to display humour, at least Craig can deliver dead pan lines capably.

    Craig is fine with the more subtle humour but shackling with some of P&W awful oneliners in SPECTRE was a mistake, that "doesn't time fly" line is atrotious.

    Craig is much better suited to "yes considerably", "what if I felt compelled to" or "time to get out", he delivers those lines confidently but attempting cheese is not his area and the desire to make him more classic Bond was done with all the subtelty of a sledgehammer by those 2 hacks that should never be allowed near Bond again.

    Before Bond Craig was an acclaimed character actor, you can tell those that spout he's ltd and wooden have no idea of his previous work. I'd like to see someone say that after witnessing him play Geordie Peacock in Our Friends In The North.

    I'm quite looking forward to seeing him play roles with more range like he did before, I'm hoping this upcoming TV show he's signed up for will show those who don't know what range the man has, Bond has unfortunatley convinced some he's one note.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    The good man line was just really silly.
    Bond is an anti-hero, an assassin.

    Being an assassin doesn't mean one cannot be good. It depends upon the cause behind the assassination. I contend that Bond, going all the way back to Fleming's Casino Royale, is a fundamentally good person.

    True. At least to some. ;) Like you & I.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    edited March 2016 Posts: 1,130
    Its in my top 10

    Which goes this way

    Huge favorites

    1 The world is not enough
    2 Goldeneye
    3 Die another day
    4 Tomorrow never dies
    5 Dr No
    6 Thunderball
    7 Goldfinger
    8 Skyfall
    9 Casino Royale
    10 SPECTRE

    Love

    11 The living Daylights
    12 From Russia with Love
    13 Quantum
    14 The Spy who loved me
    15 licence to kill
    16 on her Majesty's secret service

    Like very much

    17 Moonraker
    18 You only live twice
    19 Diamonds are forever
    20 for your eyes only


    Mehh
    21 Octopussy
    22 The man with the golden gun
    23 A view to kill
    24 live and let die










  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Szonana wrote: »
    Huge favorites
    4 Tomorrow never dies
    5 Dr No
    6 Thunderball
    7 Goldfinger
    10 SPECTRE
    Love
    11 The living Daylights
    12 From Russia with Love
    13 Quantum
    14 The Spy who loved me
    15 licence to kill

    =D>
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Yes, bravo.
    @Szonana
    You're unique and I'm glad you are here. :)
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    Yes, bravo.
    @Szonana
    You're unique and I'm glad you are here. :)


    Thanks so much to both @JasonBond and @Chrisisall fir accepting my weird taste when it comes to Bond. Lol
    No seriously im glad you liked my top 10 but i think we all are unique in our own way



  • GBFGBF
    edited March 2016 Posts: 3,197
    Shardlake wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    I am still so surprised that Spectre is so loved by so many Bond fans. What is so good about that film? I can't see it. I mean the action is quiet good but we have had most of it - and in a better executed way - in other Bond or other action films. Are there any interesting characters? I don't find them. Does anyone really thinks the villain or the henchman are among the very best in their respective category. Who cares for the Bond girls? Sciarra could have become very intersting but she suddenly jsut disappeared, Swann was for 95% the damsel in distress. She is very good looking but does not really do anything and is one of the few Bond girls who need to be rescued several times in the film. I don't tink people will remember her that well in the future. In fact, most of the characters are really wasted. You could have done so much more out of them. The plot however is the biggest issue that I have with the film. Imo they just copied everything together from several othe Bond films and MI. It really feels as if they were running out of ideas. Was there really any creative plot point when you thought "this is really a creative idea". I was really missing any of these creative moments. Just think of the horrible escape scene from the crater. I really thought "Ok they have no idea how Bond is able to escape this place, so let's just make the terminator out of him" The same applies to the final scene and the whole step brother story arc. This would not even have worked in the more ironic Brosnan films that have taken themselves not to seriously. And Spectre despite its very silly and uncreative moments doesn't have this ironic style. It still feels very serious most of the time. Maybe it's just because Craig still plays the same emotionless character he played in all his Bond films. For me this just doesn't work.

    Emotionless? I believe he sheds a tear in Skyfall, is visibly distraught at Vesper's death, gets angry and moody in Quantum of Solace - he's probably the most emotional Bond yet, so much so people are even calling him 'emo Bond'. And so much so that people on here are complaining about it.

    "emotionless" is certainly the wrong word. I am completely with you that Craig is an emotional Bond. The thing is: He is always in the same mood and that is what annoys me. Even when he smiles it seems forced to me. The expressions on his face do not vary that much. All other Bond actors had not been that emotional but showed more than one dimensions. There were times when they were happy and times when they were sad, charming or angry. They could be a cold blooded killer but also a gentle man. For me Craig never really got rid of the character who is first of all a cold blooded assassin who is permanently in a bad mood.

    I think the point is that Bond isn't supposed to be some cheerful chap, Moore and Brosnan might have played it that way and to some degree Connery but Craig has been about showing a more layered and conflicted Bond.

    In reality Bond wouldn't be wise cracking playboy and Dalton was just as moody as Craig if not more so because he has no ability to display humour, at least Craig can deliver dead pan lines capably.

    Craig is fine with the more subtle humour but shackling with some of P&W awful oneliners in SPECTRE was a mistake, that "doesn't time fly" line is atrotious.

    Craig is much better suited to "yes considerably", "what if I felt compelled to" or "time to get out", he delivers those lines confidently but attempting cheese is not his area and the desire to make him more classic Bond was done with all the subtelty of a sledgehammer by those 2 hacks that should never be allowed near Bond again.

    Before Bond Craig was an acclaimed character actor, you can tell those that spout he's ltd and wooden have no idea of his previous work. I'd like to see someone say that after witnessing him play Geordie Peacock in Our Friends In The North.

    I'm quite looking forward to seeing him play roles with more range like he did before, I'm hoping this upcoming TV show he's signed up for will show those who don't know what range the man has, Bond has unfortunatley convinced some he's one note.

    You're certainly right and I also think that Craig is a very good actor. I think it is a matter of expectations. For me the gritty and emotional Bond character works very well in Casino Royal and Skyfall and even in QoS (even though I dislike the latter). But in Spectre it is somehow ... I don't know... cold blooded but also funny.

    I am also more into the cinematic Bond who had been probably different from the moody Bond Flemming created. Everyone has certainly a different view on that because we all prefer a different type of Bond and that's fine.
    About Dalton: Well I think his performances are somewhat different. IMO in TLD he is closer to Brosnan than Craig whereas he is closer to Craig in LTK. In TLD you see him having a lot of fun in Vienna and there are some funny sequences (Cello). He is also very charming in that film. I found this character to be very similar to the one portayed by Brosnan in Golden Eye.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited March 2016 Posts: 8,392
    Where would I rank SPECTRE?

    Let's find out...


    I give the 1st act 9 out of 10

    I give the 2nd act 9 out of 10

    I give the 3rd act 7 out of 10

    9/10 + 9/10 + 7/10 = 25/30

    25/30 ÷ 3 = 8.3/10


    That's rights, I give SPECTRE:

    8.3/10


    Quite simply, SPECTRE delivers on Skyfall's promises.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Quite simply, SPECTRE delivers on Skyfall's promises.
    I agree. Top ten material!
  • Posts: 832
    Where would I rank SPECTRE?

    Let's find out...


    I give the 1st act 9 out of 10

    I give the 2nd act 9 out of 10

    I give the 3rd act 7 out of 10

    9/10 + 9/10 + 7/10 = 25/30

    25/30 ÷ 3 = 8.3/10


    That's rights, I give SPECTRE:

    8.3/10


    Quite simply, SPECTRE delivers on Skyfall's promises.

    Act 1: 8/10

    Act 2: 7/10

    Act 3: 7/10

    Act 4: 5/10
  • Posts: 4,044
    When does Act 4 start?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Ottofuse8 wrote: »
    Where would I rank SPECTRE?

    Let's find out...


    I give the 1st act 9 out of 10

    I give the 2nd act 9 out of 10

    I give the 3rd act 7 out of 10

    9/10 + 9/10 + 7/10 = 25/30

    25/30 ÷ 3 = 8.3/10


    That's rights, I give SPECTRE:

    8.3/10


    Quite simply, SPECTRE delivers on Skyfall's promises.

    Act 1: 8/10

    Act 2: 7/10

    Act 3: 7/10

    Act 4: 5/10

    Act 1: 8/10

    Act 2: 8/10

    Act 3: 8/10

    Act 4: 8/10
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited March 2016 Posts: 8,392
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ottofuse8 wrote: »
    Where would I rank SPECTRE?

    Let's find out...


    I give the 1st act 9 out of 10

    I give the 2nd act 9 out of 10

    I give the 3rd act 7 out of 10

    9/10 + 9/10 + 7/10 = 25/30

    25/30 ÷ 3 = 8.3/10


    That's rights, I give SPECTRE:

    8.3/10


    Quite simply, SPECTRE delivers on Skyfall's promises.

    Act 1: 8/10

    Act 2: 7/10

    Act 3: 7/10

    Act 4: 5/10

    Act 1: 8/10

    Act 2: 8/10

    Act 3: 8/10

    Act 4: 8/10

    Let's do some quick math:

    8/10 + 8/10 + 8/10 + 8/10 = 32/40

    32/40 ÷ 4 = 8/10

    So you would SPECTRE about the as I would. Interesting.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ottofuse8 wrote: »
    Where would I rank SPECTRE?

    Let's find out...


    I give the 1st act 9 out of 10

    I give the 2nd act 9 out of 10

    I give the 3rd act 7 out of 10

    9/10 + 9/10 + 7/10 = 25/30

    25/30 ÷ 3 = 8.3/10


    That's rights, I give SPECTRE:

    8.3/10


    Quite simply, SPECTRE delivers on Skyfall's promises.

    Act 1: 8/10

    Act 2: 7/10

    Act 3: 7/10

    Act 4: 5/10

    Act 1: 8/10

    Act 2: 8/10

    Act 3: 8/10

    Act 4: 8/10

    Let's do some quick math:

    8/10 + 8/10 + 8/10 + 8/10 = 32/40

    32/40 ÷ 4 = 8/10

    So you would [rate] SPECTRE about the as I would. Interesting.
    Yep. Love the flick. And I find it to be as good on the back end as it is in the front.
  • What even is a 'fourth act'? I know the three-act structure, I even know there is a five-act structure which is more difficult to apply, but I am not very sure about a four-act structure.

    Anyway:

    Act 1 - Gunbarrel to Mr. White - 8/10

    Act 2 - Clinic to Train Fight - 9/10

    Act 3 - Moroccan Crater Base to End Credits - 5/10

    22/30, which seems low but I am harsh on my movies.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited March 2016 Posts: 8,392
    What even is a 'fourth act'? I know the three-act structure, I even know there is a five-act structure which is more difficult to apply, but I am not very sure about a four-act structure.

    Anyway:

    Act 1 - Gunbarrel to Mr. White - 8/10

    Act 2 - Clinic to Train Fight - 9/10

    Act 3 - Moroccan Crater Base to End Credits - 5/10

    22/30, which seems low but I am harsh on my movies.

    to me the film is 9/10 up until the final twenty minutes with the old mi6 building. That seemed very cliched to me. From when Bond gets to the Building, to when he is holding the gun to Blofeld's head, I feel like I have seen that section in 1000 other films before. I wished they had been a bit smarter, a bit braver, and had more of a low-key, thriller type ending. I don't think their was a need for more action at the end, the film is already action packed as it is.

    Anyway, with a different ending SPECTRE would be a 9/10. As it is, it's a 8.3/10.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    This is an interesting way to rank. Anyway, here's mine.

    Act 1 - Gunbarrel to Mr. White - 9/10
    (this part of the film is probably as good as any Bond film)

    Act 2 - Clinic to Train Fight - 6/10
    (this part is redeemed only by L'Americaine and perhaps the actual Hinx fight - but not the buildup. Otherwise I'd rank it even lower. The clinic is awfully dull, and the chase in the Alps is a textbook way on how to blow money while dulling the senses)

    Act 3 - Moroccan Crater Base to End Credits - 3/10
    (not much to say here. This part of the film just collapses for me. From that Omega advertising torture scene to the end. - I've actually not been able to get to the very end during my two blu ray watches without tuning out the entire London sequence).

    9+6+3=18/30. My current Spectre rank out of 24 is 17.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    bondjames wrote: »
    This is an interesting way to rank. Anyway, here's mine.

    Act 1 - Gunbarrel to Mr. White - 9/10
    (this part of the film is probably as good as any Bond film)

    Act 2 - Clinic to Train Fight - 6/10
    (this part is redeemed only by L'Americaine and perhaps the actual Hinx fight - but not the buildup. Otherwise I'd rank it even lower. The clinic is awfully dull, and the chase in the Alps is a textbook way on how to blow money while dulling the senses)

    Act 3 - Moroccan Crater Base to End Credits - 3/10
    (not much to say here. This part of the film just collapses for me. From that Omega advertising torture scene to the end. - I've actually not been able to get to the very end during my two blu ray watches without tuning out the entire London sequence).

    9+6+3=18/30. My current Spectre rank out of 24 is 17.

    Perfectly reviewed!

    I also think that the third act is probably the most important one in any film. I can accept an inperfect and even a boring second act if a great third act is yet to come. The thrd act is also the last thing you see in the film.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I don't get why the last act in London should not be just great.
    The whole setting in the destroyed MI6 headquarters is eerie, tense and visually bloody great.

    PTS and title sequence
    10/10

    everything to and including Rome
    10/10
    that's where SF failed miserably, everything after the PTS up to Macau is boring.

    Austria
    10/10
    OHMSS and GE redux, bloody brilliant

    L'Americain
    10/10
    The hotel, the mouse, Swann, the room, a classic already

    The Train/train station
    10/10
    one of the best sequences of the franchise

    Meeting Blofeld in the meteor room/villain's lair
    10/10
    at last we get a classic villain's lair that Ken Adam would be proud of.
    Waltz is spectacular and puts every other Blofeld to shame, especially parodic YOLT Blofeld.
    The destruction of the base is bloody fantastic.

    London
    9.5/10
    The perfect contrast in every way to the desert setting. M shines in this sequence.
    The building is visually stunning and has a great atmosphere.
    Bond chasing the helicopter is great and the bridge scene is such a great setting to "end" Blofeld.
    The very last scene in the Aston Martin may just be the best ending ever in a Bond movie.

    In short, the movie is bloody perfect, there have not been many of that kind in the franchise. Also performance wise.
    I can only think of GF, FRWL, OHMSS and TSWLM who seem to be iconic and classic from start to finish. From the "newer" ones I'd include GE.
  • Posts: 832
    Act 1- start to just before austria
    Act 2- austria- morocco before train
    Act 3- train- base
    Act 4- london
  • Ottofuse8 wrote: »
    Act 1- start to just before austria
    Act 2- austria- morocco before train
    Act 3- train- base
    Act 4- london

    Oh very good. I still think that's a curious way to divide the movie honestly.
    I don't get why the last act in London should not be just great.
    The whole setting in the destroyed MI6 headquarters is eerie, tense and visually bloody great.

    PTS and title sequence
    10/10

    everything to and including Rome
    10/10
    that's where SF failed miserably, everything after the PTS up to Macau is boring.

    Austria
    10/10
    OHMSS and GE redux, bloody brilliant

    L'Americain
    10/10
    The hotel, the mouse, Swann, the room, a classic already

    The Train/train station
    10/10
    one of the best sequences of the franchise

    Meeting Blofeld in the meteor room/villain's lair
    10/10
    at last we get a classic villain's lair that Ken Adam would be proud of.
    Waltz is spectacular and puts every other Blofeld to shame, especially parodic YOLT Blofeld.
    The destruction of the base is bloody fantastic.

    London
    9.5/10
    The perfect contrast in every way to the desert setting. M shines in this sequence.
    The building is visually stunning and has a great atmosphere.
    Bond chasing the helicopter is great and the bridge scene is such a great setting to "end" Blofeld.
    The very last scene in the Aston Martin may just be the best ending ever in a Bond movie.

    In short, the movie is bloody perfect, there have not been many of that kind in the franchise. Also performance wise.
    I can only think of GF, FRWL, OHMSS and TSWLM who seem to be iconic and classic from start to finish. From the "newer" ones I'd include GE.

    GF and GE were definitely great from start to finish. Never let you down whilst watching.
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