Where would you rank SPECTRE? (no spoilers)

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2016 Posts: 23,883
    jake24 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    the legendary: "Of course! Mr. White!!

    :))

    Is this line Craig's equivalent of Brozza's 'Knew all about my shoulder'?
    Give me a break. The line is fine.

    You're joking right?

    I thought Naomi Harris's 'It's some sort of sadistic game' would be the worst delivered line of the Craig era but I think Dan might just have sneaked it with that.

    Mommy....was....verybad.

    THAT'S the worst delivered line of the Craig era if not the franchise itself. Probably a homage to Dr. Evil or mini-me.

    The worst line in the franchise is "It was me James, the author of all your pain". It makes me feel secondhand embarrassment.
    If I'm not mistaken, I think he says it twice for emphasis and to rub it in as well, perhaps understanding that the audience would be in shock and disbelief. "It was me James. Me. The author of all your pain." or something to that effect.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Even though so many months have passed and I have watched it 5-6 times, I am still disappointed by it's pace and the weak final act. I was so hyped for Spectre believing it be the gritty action thriller CR was but feel it got caught up too much in homage and the way the film looked rather than a cast iron story. It probably sits around 8 in my all time

    CR
    FRWL
    GF
    TB
    TLD
    OHMSS
    GE
    SPECTRE
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Even though so many months have passed and I have watched it 5-6 times, I am still disappointed by it's pace and the weak final act. I was so hyped for Spectre believing it be the gritty action thriller CR was but feel it got caught up too much in homage and the way the film looked rather than a cast iron story. It probably sits around 8 in my all time

    CR
    FRWL
    GF
    TB
    TLD
    OHMSS
    GE
    SPECTRE

    Oh wow, what a great Top 8!
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    bondjames wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    the legendary: "Of course! Mr. White!!

    :))

    Is this line Craig's equivalent of Brozza's 'Knew all about my shoulder'?
    Give me a break. The line is fine.

    You're joking right?

    I thought Naomi Harris's 'It's some sort of sadistic game' would be the worst delivered line of the Craig era but I think Dan might just have sneaked it with that.

    Mommy....was....verybad.

    THAT'S the worst delivered line of the Craig era if not the franchise itself. Probably a homage to Dr. Evil or mini-me.

    The worst line in the franchise is "It was me James, the author of all your pain". It makes me feel secondhand embarrassment.
    If I'm not mistaken, I think he says it twice for emphasis and to rub it in as well, perhaps understanding that the audience would be in shock and disbelief. "It was me James. Me. The author of all your pain."

    Something like that.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=iikyCYGBg-s
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Spectre is in my top eight as well, along with DN, FRWL, GF, OHMSS, FYEO, CR and SF.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Spectre is in my top eight as well, along with DN, FRWL, GF, OHMSS, FYEO, CR and SF.

    Oh, wow. What an almost great Top 8! Just eject SF and replace it with GE. NOW.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Do I really have to do that?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,963
    Spectre is in my top eight as well, along with DN, FRWL, GF, OHMSS, FYEO, CR and SF.

    Nothing but a lie right here. We all know @Thunderfinger's Top 8 looks a little like this:

    1.) DAD
    2.) TND
    3.) DAD
    4.) GE
    5.) TND
    6.) GE
    7.) TWINE
    8.) DAD
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Is that what it looks like now? Damn!
  • Posts: 2,483
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Hinx could have and should have been used more effectively than he was. As I mentioned somewhere, he was particularly deadly at the Spectre meeting, but then all menace was removed due to the tepid car chase. The same occured the next time we saw him, in the clinic and car/plane chase where he was ineffective and even knocked out.

    I think they should have excluded that car chase (or had someone else chase Bond rather than Hinx) and have him kill a few more people in a row, before getting to the fight which I admit was top notch (if derivative in terms of location on a train).

    What would have prevented the removal of menace in the car chase and plane chase? Him killing Bond? Brilliant idea.
    No that's your idea, and 'brilliant' is not quite the words I'd use to describe it.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think they should have excluded that car chase (or had someone else chase Bond rather than Hinx)

    Who? Elvis?

    Mickey Mouse.
    Didn't we already get him in this film? Twice, if you count the CGI mouse.
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think they should have excluded that car chase (or had someone else chase Bond rather than Hinx)
    Who? Elvis?
    Would have been just as exciting honestly, given that the most dangerous thing Hinx does is give Bond a suggestive look as he pulls up next to him at the lights.

    The purpose of the chase appeared to be to showcase some nice locations in Rome, act as a Jag/Aston car ad (beauties undoubtedly, both of them) and provide some exposition on plot via MP (the legendary: "Of course! Mr. White!!).

    It really didn't need a menacing, murdering henchman in the car.

    You're quite right. When Hinx pulled alongside of Bond he should have thrown a bowler at him or stuck his head out the window and bit a roof strut in two. That's what I call menace.
    Again, not quite what I would have done, but to each their own. Carry on. You're on a roll here.

    And you don't have an idea in your head but rather gobs of criticism you can't back up.

  • Posts: 2,483
    bondjames wrote: »
    The problem with him is he doesn't really do anything. In the meeting scene we are shown a man mountain and a ruthless killer so we know when him and Bond finally go at it it will be epic. And it is.

    The trouble is inbetween those two scenes he just drives around harmlessly and does absolutely nothing.
    This is precisely the issue I have with him. They started off introducing him in a disturbing (somewhat cruel) scene and that was brilliant. We were meant to be terrified of him, and it worked. Then they dissipated that build up in the next scene with the 'humour' driven (even according to the scene's fans) car chase, and then the plane sequence where he was just driving around as you note.

    Finally, as I said at the start, we had the great train fight, but by then some of that 'fear' that was introduced at the very start had been lost (for me) due to the intervening scenes.

    At least with Jaws in TSWLM, we start with Fekkish at the pyramids, then Kalba in the phone booth, then the tense Luxor Temple scene with Anya/Bond (all chilling scenes imho) and only after all of that do we get the comedic dropping of stone on foot. So the buildup helps to establish him for some time as a worthy, credible and deadly adversary before the other shoe drops[/quote]

    I daresay Hinx's grinding out the eyeballs of the SPECTRE agent establishes Hinx's credibility as a deadly adversary more than every bit of action in which Jaws ever engaged. Likewise, Jaws' cartoonish, comedic overtones do infinitely more to undermine his credibility than does the tiny bit of humor in the Rome car chase.
  • Posts: 2,483
    jake24 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    the legendary: "Of course! Mr. White!!

    :))

    Is this line Craig's equivalent of Brozza's 'Knew all about my shoulder'?
    Give me a break. The line is fine.

    You're joking right?

    I thought Naomi Harris's 'It's some sort of sadistic game' would be the worst delivered line of the Craig era but I think Dan might just have sneaked it with that.

    Mommy....was....verybad.

    THAT'S the worst delivered line of the Craig era if not the franchise itself. Probably a homage to Dr. Evil or mini-me.

    The worst line in the franchise is "It was me James, the author of all your pain". It makes me feel secondhand embarrassment.

    Wow. Just goes to show that it really does take all kinds. DAD alone has probably 50 lines that are markedly inferior to that one.

  • Posts: 4,044
    bondjames wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    the legendary: "Of course! Mr. White!!

    :))

    Is this line Craig's equivalent of Brozza's 'Knew all about my shoulder'?
    Give me a break. The line is fine.

    You're joking right?

    I thought Naomi Harris's 'It's some sort of sadistic game' would be the worst delivered line of the Craig era but I think Dan might just have sneaked it with that.

    Mommy....was....verybad.

    THAT'S the worst delivered line of the Craig era if not the franchise itself. Probably a homage to Dr. Evil or mini-me.

    The worst line in the franchise is "It was me James, the author of all your pain". It makes me feel secondhand embarrassment.
    If I'm not mistaken, I think he says it twice for emphasis and to rub it in as well, perhaps understanding that the audience would be in shock and disbelief. "It was me James. Me. The author of all your pain."

    Something like that.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=iikyCYGBg-s

    ...and that video comes from Awesome Movie Quotes
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    vzok wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    the legendary: "Of course! Mr. White!!

    :))

    Is this line Craig's equivalent of Brozza's 'Knew all about my shoulder'?
    Give me a break. The line is fine.

    You're joking right?

    I thought Naomi Harris's 'It's some sort of sadistic game' would be the worst delivered line of the Craig era but I think Dan might just have sneaked it with that.

    Mommy....was....verybad.

    THAT'S the worst delivered line of the Craig era if not the franchise itself. Probably a homage to Dr. Evil or mini-me.

    The worst line in the franchise is "It was me James, the author of all your pain". It makes me feel secondhand embarrassment.
    If I'm not mistaken, I think he says it twice for emphasis and to rub it in as well, perhaps understanding that the audience would be in shock and disbelief. "It was me James. Me. The author of all your pain."

    Something like that.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=iikyCYGBg-s

    ...and that video comes from Awesome Movie Quotes

    because it's an awesome quote. Like pretty much anything in Spectre, highly quotable and memorable.
    The only thing remembered from SF will be...well you know...
  • Posts: 4,044
    vzok wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    the legendary: "Of course! Mr. White!!

    :))

    Is this line Craig's equivalent of Brozza's 'Knew all about my shoulder'?
    Give me a break. The line is fine.

    You're joking right?

    I thought Naomi Harris's 'It's some sort of sadistic game' would be the worst delivered line of the Craig era but I think Dan might just have sneaked it with that.

    Mommy....was....verybad.

    THAT'S the worst delivered line of the Craig era if not the franchise itself. Probably a homage to Dr. Evil or mini-me.

    The worst line in the franchise is "It was me James, the author of all your pain". It makes me feel secondhand embarrassment.
    If I'm not mistaken, I think he says it twice for emphasis and to rub it in as well, perhaps understanding that the audience would be in shock and disbelief. "It was me James. Me. The author of all your pain."

    Something like that.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=iikyCYGBg-s

    ...and that video comes from Awesome Movie Quotes

    because it's an awesome quote. Like pretty much anything in Spectre, highly quotable and memorable.
    The only thing remembered from SF will be...well you know...

    The Bulldog?
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    jake24 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    the legendary: "Of course! Mr. White!!

    :))

    Is this line Craig's equivalent of Brozza's 'Knew all about my shoulder'?
    Give me a break. The line is fine.

    You're joking right?

    I thought Naomi Harris's 'It's some sort of sadistic game' would be the worst delivered line of the Craig era but I think Dan might just have sneaked it with that.

    Mommy....was....verybad.

    THAT'S the worst delivered line of the Craig era if not the franchise itself. Probably a homage to Dr. Evil or mini-me.

    The worst line in the franchise is "It was me James, the author of all your pain". It makes me feel secondhand embarrassment.

    Wow. Just goes to show that it really does take all kinds. DAD alone has probably 50 lines that are markedly inferior to that one.

    DAD is an embarrassment in its entirety.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Hinx could have and should have been used more effectively than he was. As I mentioned somewhere, he was particularly deadly at the Spectre meeting, but then all menace was removed due to the tepid car chase. The same occured the next time we saw him, in the clinic and car/plane chase where he was ineffective and even knocked out.

    I think they should have excluded that car chase (or had someone else chase Bond rather than Hinx) and have him kill a few more people in a row, before getting to the fight which I admit was top notch (if derivative in terms of location on a train).

    What would have prevented the removal of menace in the car chase and plane chase? Him killing Bond? Brilliant idea.
    No that's your idea, and 'brilliant' is not quite the words I'd use to describe it.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think they should have excluded that car chase (or had someone else chase Bond rather than Hinx)

    Who? Elvis?

    Mickey Mouse.
    Didn't we already get him in this film? Twice, if you count the CGI mouse.
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think they should have excluded that car chase (or had someone else chase Bond rather than Hinx)
    Who? Elvis?
    Would have been just as exciting honestly, given that the most dangerous thing Hinx does is give Bond a suggestive look as he pulls up next to him at the lights.

    The purpose of the chase appeared to be to showcase some nice locations in Rome, act as a Jag/Aston car ad (beauties undoubtedly, both of them) and provide some exposition on plot via MP (the legendary: "Of course! Mr. White!!).

    It really didn't need a menacing, murdering henchman in the car.

    You're quite right. When Hinx pulled alongside of Bond he should have thrown a bowler at him or stuck his head out the window and bit a roof strut in two. That's what I call menace.
    Again, not quite what I would have done, but to each their own. Carry on. You're on a roll here.

    And you don't have an idea in your head but rather gobs of criticism you can't back up.
    No mate, I have already explained my view, and I stand by it. I see you finally got round to having a read of it in the last post.

    You obviously have a different view, which you're entirely entitled to. Hinx turned your crank. I'm happy for you. He did nothing for me outside of the eyeball gouge, which I've already indicated was impressive, as was the fight. In between, it could have been any other lackey going about the motions.

    To each their own.

    PS: Still think your suggestions above are far from brilliant, unless it was an attempt at sarcastic wit at my expense rather than having a genuine discussion, in which case I missed it, and then it's not bad.
    I daresay Hinx's grinding out the eyeballs of the SPECTRE agent establishes Hinx's credibility as a deadly adversary more than every bit of action in which Jaws ever engaged. Likewise, Jaws' cartoonish, comedic overtones do infinitely more to undermine his credibility than does the tiny bit of humor in the Rome car chase.
    This is where we differ in viewpoint. I found the early Jaws scenes in TSWLM, including the aforementioned three encounters in Egypt to be infinitely more interesting and threatening than the eye gouge sequence on its own. The latter was disturbing, but not as tensely pulled together as the Pyramid, phone booth or Temple encounters, which were expertly directed by Gilbert despite limited 'gore' factor, at least imho.

    The train fight was definitely more visceral in SP compared to the earlier film, but it was derivative of the one in TSWLM (and other earlier Bond films that had fights on trains) and consequently that took away some of the 'wow' and iconic factor for me.

    While the humour was limited in the car chase (it is others who have suggested here that it was humorous - I certainly didn't feel that way), the lack of tension (intentional?) during the chase removed any sense of apprehension in the theatre for me. Bond talking casually on the phone in particular took away from the moment, which is why I would have preferred another lackey being the one doing the chasing - and not the recently introduced 'scary' Hinx.

    Again, just my view.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    ]This is where we differ in viewpoint. I found the early Jaws scenes in TSWLM, including the aforementioned three encounters in Egypt to be infinitely more interesting and threatening than the eye gouge sequence on its own. The latter was disturbing, but not as tensely pulled together as the Pyramid, phone booth or Temple encounters, which were expertly directed by Gilbert despite limited 'gore' factor, at least imho.

    The train fight was definitely more visceral in SP compared to the earlier film, but it was derivative of the one in TSWLM (and other earlier Bond films that had fights on trains) and consequently that took away some of the 'wow' and iconic factor for me.

    While the humour was limited in the car chase (it is others who have suggested here that it was humorous - I certainly didn't feel that way), the lack of tension (intentional?) during the chase removed any sense of apprehension in the theatre for me. Bond talking casually on the phone in particular took away from the moment, which is why I would have preferred another lackey being the one doing the chasing - and not the recently introduced 'scary' Hinx.

    Again, just my view.

    Yes I agree with this too. More of a problem I thought is that Hinx doesn't even look like he's trying to kill Bond at all, he looks more like he's engaging in a friendly race. There really is no menace in his character besides his opening scene (which I might have even yawned at, it felt cliche) and the train fight. Somehow, even if he was played for laughs a lot of the time, Jaws always felt more menacing.
  • Posts: 1,631
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The problem with Hinx is symptomatic of the entire film. Too much attention paid to mimicking the past, rather than creating something newly iconic.

    That's certainly part of the problem with Hinx. The other would be that, other than his brief introduction and then the fight with Bond on the train, he doesn't do anything. The rest of his screen time is devoted to either driving or sitting in a vehicle while just letting Bond do his thing almost uninterrupted.
  • Posts: 7,414
    I was expecting Hinx, in pre-publicity about the character, to speak during the film. He wasn't really what I though he was going to be. But I do love his intro, and that fight set-piece is still thrilling. He probably should not have appeared in the plane sequence, but he had little screentime as it was.
    Spectre still coming in for a hard time around here, despite the pre-credits scene ranking high in the elimination game. Despite its flaws (and what Bond movie doesn't have flaws?) I love it. Am toying with the idea of moving it up from number 7 on my list. Will give it another watch this week and see!
  • Posts: 2,483
    dalton wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The problem with Hinx is symptomatic of the entire film. Too much attention paid to mimicking the past, rather than creating something newly iconic.

    That's certainly part of the problem with Hinx. The other would be that, other than his brief introduction and then the fight with Bond on the train, he doesn't do anything. The rest of his screen time is devoted to either driving or sitting in a vehicle while just letting Bond do his thing almost uninterrupted.

    Well that's kind of what Bond henchmen do. They are silent but deadly types who have a few--if any--spoken lines, and their purpose is to be the brawn behind the evil brains. The characters are almost never developed, and they don't "do" much of anything other than fight, assassinate and drive vehicles of sundry sort. People are not critiquing Hinx according to the standards of previous henchmen; they are critiquing him according to irrelevant standards, and then panning him when he fails to meet them. It's really a case of grasping at thin reeds to bash SP, when there are plenty of legitimate failings in that film that are worthy of legitimate criticism.

  • Posts: 1,631
    dalton wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The problem with Hinx is symptomatic of the entire film. Too much attention paid to mimicking the past, rather than creating something newly iconic.

    That's certainly part of the problem with Hinx. The other would be that, other than his brief introduction and then the fight with Bond on the train, he doesn't do anything. The rest of his screen time is devoted to either driving or sitting in a vehicle while just letting Bond do his thing almost uninterrupted.

    Well that's kind of what Bond henchmen do. They are silent but deadly types who have a few--if any--spoken lines, and their purpose is to be the brawn behind the evil brains. The characters are almost never developed, and they don't "do" much of anything other than fight, assassinate and drive vehicles of sundry sort. People are not critiquing Hinx according to the standards of previous henchmen; they are critiquing him according to irrelevant standards, and then panning him when he fails to meet them. It's really a case of grasping at thin reeds to bash SP, when there are plenty of legitimate failings in that film that are worthy of legitimate criticism.

    The problem is, he doesn't even rise to the level of doing what we've seen from the previous henchmen. Yes, you're correct in say that he's supposed to be the "brawn behind the evil brains", but aside from his introduction scene and his final one, he doesn't even accomplish anything that would raise him up onto the level of even some of the more mediocre Bond henchmen.

    He makes his eye-gouging kill in his introduction. Then his menace is reduced to tailgating, pointing a gun (albeit a cool one), and staring into a security camera, before his big fight with Bond.
  • Posts: 2,483
    dalton wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The problem with Hinx is symptomatic of the entire film. Too much attention paid to mimicking the past, rather than creating something newly iconic.

    That's certainly part of the problem with Hinx. The other would be that, other than his brief introduction and then the fight with Bond on the train, he doesn't do anything. The rest of his screen time is devoted to either driving or sitting in a vehicle while just letting Bond do his thing almost uninterrupted.

    Well that's kind of what Bond henchmen do. They are silent but deadly types who have a few--if any--spoken lines, and their purpose is to be the brawn behind the evil brains. The characters are almost never developed, and they don't "do" much of anything other than fight, assassinate and drive vehicles of sundry sort. People are not critiquing Hinx according to the standards of previous henchmen; they are critiquing him according to irrelevant standards, and then panning him when he fails to meet them. It's really a case of grasping at thin reeds to bash SP, when there are plenty of legitimate failings in that film that are worthy of legitimate criticism.

    The problem is, he doesn't even rise to the level of doing what we've seen from the previous henchmen. Yes, you're correct in say that he's supposed to be the "brawn behind the evil brains", but aside from his introduction scene and his final one, he doesn't even accomplish anything that would raise him up onto the level of even some of the more mediocre Bond henchmen.

    He makes his eye-gouging kill in his introduction. Then his menace is reduced to tailgating, pointing a gun (albeit a cool one), and staring into a security camera, before his big fight with Bond.

    Then what of Krasno Granitskii, generally reckoned the acme of Bond henchmen? He offs a flunky in the PTS, gets slugged in the gut by Klebb, then spends almost the entirety of the film loosely shadowing Bond before the terminal punch-up. You see, henchmen are not usually the main adversaries. They are generally handmaidens to the primary villain. Hinx was used about the way most henchmen are, but his impact was far greater than his screen time.

  • edited April 2016 Posts: 1,631
    The fact of the matter is that Hinx is a disappointing henchman. Most of his acclaim is, I'm afraid, derived from how much he was talked up by Bautista and Mendes in the press, but much of that does not come through on screen. He's boring, and is even more disappointing when it's considered that he could have filled the void left by the mostly absent Blofeld.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2016 Posts: 23,883
    dalton wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The problem with Hinx is symptomatic of the entire film. Too much attention paid to mimicking the past, rather than creating something newly iconic.

    That's certainly part of the problem with Hinx. The other would be that, other than his brief introduction and then the fight with Bond on the train, he doesn't do anything. The rest of his screen time is devoted to either driving or sitting in a vehicle while just letting Bond do his thing almost uninterrupted.

    Well that's kind of what Bond henchmen do. They are silent but deadly types who have a few--if any--spoken lines, and their purpose is to be the brawn behind the evil brains. The characters are almost never developed, and they don't "do" much of anything other than fight, assassinate and drive vehicles of sundry sort. People are not critiquing Hinx according to the standards of previous henchmen; they are critiquing him according to irrelevant standards, and then panning him when he fails to meet them. It's really a case of grasping at thin reeds to bash SP, when there are plenty of legitimate failings in that film that are worthy of legitimate criticism.

    The problem is, he doesn't even rise to the level of doing what we've seen from the previous henchmen. Yes, you're correct in say that he's supposed to be the "brawn behind the evil brains", but aside from his introduction scene and his final one, he doesn't even accomplish anything that would raise him up onto the level of even some of the more mediocre Bond henchmen.

    He makes his eye-gouging kill in his introduction. Then his menace is reduced to tailgating, pointing a gun (albeit a cool one), and staring into a security camera, before his big fight with Bond.

    Then what of Krasno Granitskii, generally reckoned the acme of Bond henchmen? He offs a flunky in the PTS, gets slugged in the gut by Klebb, then spends almost the entirety of the film loosely shadowing Bond before the terminal punch-up. You see, henchmen are not usually the main adversaries. They are generally handmaidens to the primary villain. Hinx was used about the way most henchmen are, but his impact was far greater than his screen time.
    If you look at it technically, then you're correct. However, the feeling I got in both cases was quite different.

    Grant and Bond never meet until the end. Grant shadowing Bond created a sense of foreboding for me, because I didn't know what would happen when they finally would meet. When they did, there was no disappointment at all. From Grant impersonating Nash, to red wine with fish, to the brilliant fight. It built up to the conclusion nicely and when they met, it was as expected - thrilling. That is the key point for me.

    With Hinx, he does meet Bond, when he chases him. Then again at the clinic and car chase, where he is beaten, and then finally in the train. So we see how Bond reacts to him, and it's with relative calm and disdain (at least in the clinic and during the car chase) rather than fear. Moreover, he beats him each time. Only in the train do we see some real fear from Bond, when he realizes he can't beat him one on one, but that would have been much more effective (in my view) if we didn't have the intervening lacklustre confrontations between the two. Go straight from the Spectre meeting to the fight in the train, and have Hinx kill others in between (even White potentially).

    Regarding different standards being used to judge Hinx, as @Birdleson said with the Star Wars example, when you keep doing something that you've done before, you can do it bigger and better (and that's arguable with Hinx) but after a while it's just repetitive. The standard 'moves' when you have the fourth train fight, or umpteenth car chase. It's not judged by the same level as DN or even TSWLM for that matter, but by a higher one, as it should, precisely because it's increasingly derivative the more times you do it. That's why I found the QoS chase interesting - because it was quite visceral. Same goes for the CR Aston flip. Very unexpected, that.

    And all of this is subjective anyway. There is no objective 'standard'. Just the one in the eye of the beholder.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    I want to see a narcoleptic psycho henchman. With a missing foot.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    I want to see sharks with frickin' lazer beams attached to their heads.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    The problem with Hinx is symptomatic of the entire film. Too much attention paid to mimicking the past, rather than creating something newly iconic.

    That's certainly part of the problem with Hinx. The other would be that, other than his brief introduction and then the fight with Bond on the train, he doesn't do anything. The rest of his screen time is devoted to either driving or sitting in a vehicle while just letting Bond do his thing almost uninterrupted.

    Well that's kind of what Bond henchmen do. They are silent but deadly types who have a few--if any--spoken lines, and their purpose is to be the brawn behind the evil brains. The characters are almost never developed, and they don't "do" much of anything other than fight, assassinate and drive vehicles of sundry sort. People are not critiquing Hinx according to the standards of previous henchmen; they are critiquing him according to irrelevant standards, and then panning him when he fails to meet them. It's really a case of grasping at thin reeds to bash SP, when there are plenty of legitimate failings in that film that are worthy of legitimate criticism.

    The problem is, he doesn't even rise to the level of doing what we've seen from the previous henchmen. Yes, you're correct in say that he's supposed to be the "brawn behind the evil brains", but aside from his introduction scene and his final one, he doesn't even accomplish anything that would raise him up onto the level of even some of the more mediocre Bond henchmen.

    He makes his eye-gouging kill in his introduction. Then his menace is reduced to tailgating, pointing a gun (albeit a cool one), and staring into a security camera, before his big fight with Bond.

    Then what of Krasno Granitskii, generally reckoned the acme of Bond henchmen? He offs a flunky in the PTS, gets slugged in the gut by Klebb, then spends almost the entirety of the film loosely shadowing Bond before the terminal punch-up. You see, henchmen are not usually the main adversaries. They are generally handmaidens to the primary villain. Hinx was used about the way most henchmen are, but his impact was far greater than his screen time.
    If you look at it technically, then you're correct. However, the feeling I got in both cases was quite different.

    Grant and Bond never meet until the end. Grant shadowing Bond created a sense of foreboding for me, because I didn't know what would happen when they finally would meet. When they did, there was no disappointment at all. From Grant impersonating Nash, to red wine with fish, to the brilliant fight. It built up to the conclusion nicely and when they met, it was as expected - thrilling. That is the key point for me.

    With Hinx, he does meet Bond, when he chases him. Then again at the clinic and car chase, where he is beaten, and then finally in the train. So we see how Bond reacts to him, and it's with relative calm and disdain (at least in the clinic and during the car chase) rather than fear. Moreover, he beats him each time. Only in the train do we see some real fear from Bond, when he realizes he can't beat him one on one, but that would have been much more effective (in my view) if we didn't have the intervening lacklustre confrontations between the two. Go straight from the Spectre meeting to the fight in the train, and have Hinx kill others in between (even White potentially).

    Regarding different standards being used to judge Hinx, as @Birdleson said with the Star Wars example, when you keep doing something that you've done before, you can do it bigger and better (and that's arguable with Hinx) but after a while it's just repetitive. The standard 'moves' when you have the fourth train fight, or umpteenth car chase. It's not judged by the same level as DN or even TSWLM for that matter, but by a higher one, as it should, precisely because it's increasingly derivative the more times you do it. That's why I found the QoS chase interesting - because it was quite visceral. Same goes for the CR Aston flip. Very unexpected, that.

    And all of this is subjective anyway. There is no objective 'standard'. Just the one in the eye of the beholder.

    Excellent post @bondjames.

    You have to say that it is only having one of the top 5 fights in the series that saves Hinx from ignominy.

    Swap the fight between Hinx and Bond for Hans v Bond or Kriegler v Bond and he would be absolutely abysmal.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
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    dalton wrote: »
    The fact of the matter is that Hinx is a disappointing henchman. Most of his acclaim is, I'm afraid, derived from how much he was talked up by Bautista and Mendes in the press, but much of that does not come through on screen. He's boring, and is even more disappointing when it's considered that he could have filled the void left by the mostly absent Blofeld.

    I didn't read a word of those press clippings and I strongly suspect few other movie-goers did either. Hinx is simply a top-tier henchman and the SP-bashers can't deal with it. Not my problem.

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