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Where would you rank SPECTRE? (no spoilers)

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  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    SP gets lower in my estimation every time I see it.

    It's a confused mess of a film. It's fatal flaw is linking it with the previous films and the 'brother aspect' that should have been scrapped at script stage.

    The film makes little sense. Its obvious Blofeld wanted to meet Bond otherwise what's the point? So why is Hinx trying to kill him before Bond even knows what's going on? Hinx I assume works for Spectre after all.

    It's a poor muddled script. The film has been dropping in my ratings with every watch.

    The PTS is brilliant as is the train fight. Not much else excites.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    edited January 2019 Posts: 17,744
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    SP gets lower in my estimation every time I see it.

    Same here. Last time I didn't even finish watching it. Never happened to me before with a Bond film.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited January 2019 Posts: 40,960
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    The PTS is brilliant as is the train fight. Not much else excites.

    I wouldn't consider either sequence "brilliant," but they're definitely the highlights for me, past a couple of quick moments or shots in Rome.

    Beyond that, it's merely large, lengthy sequences that drag or bore, punchlines or quips that are total cringe (a mixture of a piss poor script and lazy delivery) and horrible retconning. The absolute worst sin these films can commit is being boring, and as ridiculous or over the top as the likes of, say, AVTAK or DAD may get, they still manage to entertain and keep my interest.
  • GetCarterGetCarter
    edited January 2019 Posts: 386
    The good - PTS, funeral scene, Spectre meeting, train fight.

    The bad - oh sweet lord, everything else. Most of all, the awful, awful tour of Blofeld’s lair. So badly staged and directed. Stilted doesn’t even cover how the actors present in this scene. It’s like the director and writer were only on deck for the first two acts.

    small side note - not joking about the funeral. It is actually the perfect way to introduce Blofeld. Menacing, moody, eerie all at once. Score is on point.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,960
    The funeral scene is the best the Rome sequences have to offer. It's well done and moody enough, and a great, subtle introduction to Blofeld.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The funeral scene is the best the Rome sequences have to offer. It's well done and moody enough, and a great, subtle introduction to Blofeld.

    I also liked the assassination of the assassins, and the continued seduction of Widow Sciarra with the Life Insurance Man.

    And also their post-coitus conversation-- Bond looks hot, Widow looks hot, Felix is mentioned (broadening the universe in a more organic way than the shoe-horning that the film attempts).
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,960
    The Sciarra seduction scene is real awkward to me for some reason, I never buy it when I see it. What comes before (her entering the house, the music, the assassins emerging from the darkness) isn't too bad. Kudos for the Felix mention, a shame that's all we get instead of getting Wright, who I find incredible as Leiter, back into the role.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    The Sciarra seduction scene is real awkward to me for some reason, I never buy it when I see it. What comes before (her entering the house, the music, the assassins emerging from the darkness) isn't too bad. Kudos for the Felix mention, a shame that's all we get instead of getting Wright, who I find incredible as Leiter, back into the role.

    I know some on here didn’t like the seduction; I found it quite twisted. The discomfort I felt only added to the scene, for me.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    I could never get the importance of finding the 'Pale King' as he was mere weeks from dying anyway.

    I hate that scene where at the meeting they ask if there are any 'challengers' to the mission to terminate the Pale King. He's weak, diseased and close to death. He's hardly going to cause any problems so what's the big deal?
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    SP ranks somewhere on the bottom after NSNA and CR'67 because those were at least entertaining.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I hate that scene where at the meeting they ask if there are any 'challengers' to the mission to terminate the Pale King. He's weak, diseased and close to death. He's hardly going to cause any problems so what's the big deal?

    Like leaking every member of the organization? If SPECTRE wanted him dead, and they failed in some form in their attempt it's obvious they would send another one to terminate him instantly. Who knows how long is goin to live, and since he's still alive he'd represent a potential problem for the organization.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    He is a dangerous liability,an avenue that needs to be closed off before he talks.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    edited January 2019 Posts: 4,423
    Typical Blofeld. As is FRWL, the poisoning/cancer isn't working as effectively as it could. Impatient git, in't he?
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    matt_u wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I hate that scene where at the meeting they ask if there are any 'challengers' to the mission to terminate the Pale King. He's weak, diseased and close to death. He's hardly going to cause any problems so what's the big deal?

    Like leaking every member of the organization? If SPECTRE wanted him dead, and they failed in some form in their attempt it's obvious they would send another one to terminate him instantly. Who knows how long is goin to live, and since he's still alive he'd represent a potential problem for the organization.

    Yeah i suppose there's that, fair enough, but the 'challenger' bit in the meeting was needless, and only there to set up Mr Hinx as a formidable henchman.

    I actually found the scene gratuitous and nasty.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I hate that scene where at the meeting they ask if there are any 'challengers' to the mission to terminate the Pale King. He's weak, diseased and close to death. He's hardly going to cause any problems so what's the big deal?

    Like leaking every member of the organization? If SPECTRE wanted him dead, and they failed in some form in their attempt it's obvious they would send another one to terminate him instantly. Who knows how long is goin to live, and since he's still alive he'd represent a potential problem for the organization.

    Yeah i suppose there's that, fair enough, but the 'challenger' bit in the meeting was needless, and only there to set up Mr Hinx as a formidable henchman.

    I actually found the scene gratuitous and nasty.
    This is a key point for me, as I felt similarly. Now, it can perhaps be argued that there have been other unnecessary and violent scenes in prior Bond films, but none made me feel like it was inappropriate like this one. I will say the same of the needle insertion and wailing like a pig during the torture sequence. Gratuitous is the correct description for my feelings.

    In terms of scenes I thought came off quite well in SP, I'd say L'Americaine and the opening tracking shot before Craig takes off his mask. That's it. The rest I have quibbles with in some way, shape or form.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    bondjames wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I hate that scene where at the meeting they ask if there are any 'challengers' to the mission to terminate the Pale King. He's weak, diseased and close to death. He's hardly going to cause any problems so what's the big deal?

    Like leaking every member of the organization? If SPECTRE wanted him dead, and they failed in some form in their attempt it's obvious they would send another one to terminate him instantly. Who knows how long is goin to live, and since he's still alive he'd represent a potential problem for the organization.

    Yeah i suppose there's that, fair enough, but the 'challenger' bit in the meeting was needless, and only there to set up Mr Hinx as a formidable henchman.

    I actually found the scene gratuitous and nasty.
    This is a key point for me, as I felt similarly. Now, it can perhaps be argued that there have been other unnecessary and violent scenes in prior Bond films, but none made me feel like it was inappropriate like this one. I will say the same of the needle insertion and wailing like a pig during the torture sequence. Gratuitous is the correct description for my feelings.

    In terms of scenes I thought came off quite well in SP, I'd say L'Americaine and the opening tracking shot before Craig takes off his mask. That's it. The rest I have quibbles with in some way, shape or form.

    I do like the entire PTS. Then the meeting with M is disappointing with weak dialogue. When C turns up Craig just come across as an A grade a-hole.

    I love the fight on the train. Its fast, brutal and really well edited. Shame it sits in such a mess of a film.

    It's a shame, as without 'brothergate' and trying to tie Blofeld in to previous films there could be a great film in there somewhere.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I hate that scene where at the meeting they ask if there are any 'challengers' to the mission to terminate the Pale King. He's weak, diseased and close to death. He's hardly going to cause any problems so what's the big deal?

    Like leaking every member of the organization? If SPECTRE wanted him dead, and they failed in some form in their attempt it's obvious they would send another one to terminate him instantly. Who knows how long is goin to live, and since he's still alive he'd represent a potential problem for the organization.

    Yeah i suppose there's that, fair enough, but the 'challenger' bit in the meeting was needless, and only there to set up Mr Hinx as a formidable henchman.

    I actually found the scene gratuitous and nasty.
    This is a key point for me, as I felt similarly. Now, it can perhaps be argued that there have been other unnecessary and violent scenes in prior Bond films, but none made me feel like it was inappropriate like this one. I will say the same of the needle insertion and wailing like a pig during the torture sequence. Gratuitous is the correct description for my feelings.

    In terms of scenes I thought came off quite well in SP, I'd say L'Americaine and the opening tracking shot before Craig takes off his mask. That's it. The rest I have quibbles with in some way, shape or form.

    I do like the entire PTS. Then the meeting with M is disappointing with weak dialogue. When C turns up Craig just come across as an A grade a-hole.

    I love the fight on the train. Its fast, brutal and really well edited. Shame it sits in such a mess of a film.

    It's a shame, as without 'brothergate' and trying to tie Blofeld in to previous films there could be a great film in there somewhere.

    Agreed on all fronts. Gunbarrel and PTS are the highlights.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2019 Posts: 4,043
    Wrong thread.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    Bottom of the barrel along with Qos.
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited July 2019 Posts: 11,425
    I rank SP above the Brosnan entries and SF.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,462
    Third from the bottom - and it seems to be more or less stuck there for now. It has its moments and I do prefer it over DAF and DAD, but it still has too many problems for it not to be a bottom-tier entry. I had one of my better watches of it today, but it still frustrates me with its poor second half and usage of Blofeld.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Sits at the bottom, with Die Another Day for me. I've not watched either in a long time, nearing on two years in fact, but I think I'm going to do the unthinkable and watch them back to back just to see which one comes off as the better film. I was one of a very few on these forums who had grave issues with the film as soon as I walked out of the cinema on premiere night. I think at the time it sat somewhere in the bottom five, so it has always been an irksome entry for me in its lifespan of 4 years thus far.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,462
    DAD frustrates me more because not only do I think the story is weak and the villains and girls are weak, but the technical aspects of the filmmaking are also the weakest of the series. I just find it collectively to be the poorest effort in the series. SP has more bits that I enjoy also.
  • Tuck91Tuck91
    Posts: 1,680
    The problem and what frustrates me about spectre is they started a pretty big story and left us hanging for years. They should have either let Craig go or made a follow up quicker than 5 years.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    I would agree with that assessment, @FoxRox, partly why I didn't have it in me to rank it below DAD. DAD is just so strikingly an early 00s action film, and in the very lowest common demoninator, bargain-bin sense. Spectre does have those moments of sheen and "gloss" that one would come to expect of a Bond film. I mean, even the "classier" moments of DAD have a certain tackiness about them, the party in the ice palace springs to mind for example.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    @Birdleson I do remember that now you mention it. I suppose one feels you are very much against the tide when Spectre had garnered no less than stellar reviews (initially) from both the media and members on here. While you came out of the cinema having found no joy or excitement, I was conflicted (I recall mentioning to my friend that I couldn't tell if I liked what I saw and that a very different kind of humour had befallen a Craig film, to my astonishment), which swiftly became frustrated and exasperated. I've been very quiet on these forums since Spectre hit, and I partially lay the blame with the intense dislike of Spectre that I experienced (and still maintain partly), and I would even go as far to say that it soured the rest of Craig's tenure for me. A remedy of revisiting exquisite Bond films over the past year or two has helped spark a new enthusiasm for the series, a sort of rehab you might say!

  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    At the bottom. Only film in the series I'd delete if I had the opportunity.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    More on the upper levels, really. A lot to enjoy in the film then and now.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited July 2019 Posts: 4,583
    SP may be the most frustrating Bond film ever made. Overall, it's middle of the pack, for me.

    The frustration stems for the film's first 115 minutes being really good. It's followed by a third act that is a mess...and based on the emails, what did we expect. The film was rushed into production before they had that third act. Equally frustrating is that the problems in that third act could have been easily fixed, if SM, DC, Babs, and Butterworth had used TSWLM as a model: the third acts are essentially very similar.

    I had no problems with the cinematography, the score, or Mendes's general handling of the film, all of which have been bashed to exhaustion on this site...for no reason, really.

    Quick thoughts:

    PTS: Fantastic
    Funeral scene and encounter with Lucia: Fantastic (Love Bond's little wave here)
    Spectre meeting: Fantastic
    Meeting with Mr White: Fantastic
    Clinic scene: Fantastic (love two lines here: about cutting out the middle man and telling one of the guards: Stay!)
    Morocco: Fantastic (even liked the mouse, and the finding of the hidden room)
    Train fight: doubly fantastic
    And then some of my favorite 10 seconds of Bond film ever: the "Writings on the Wall" instrumental, as the train makes its way through the desert, the sunset in the bg, and then the cut to Bond and Madeleine being dropped off....GREAT!!!!!)

    But then the film starts to fall apart quickly, unfortunately.

    The third act really needed to follow a simple formula: Bond goes after villain, who's holding Bond girl captive, in a place that is going about to blow up, but needs to get through henchman first. Then he kills henchman and villain and saves the girl.

    Hinx needed to make a return at the very end. The helicopter fight should have been reserved for the two of them, over London, not Mexico City. They crash, with Blofeld's escaping (if they so desire). The final scene should NOT have been Bond letting Blofeld go, but racing against time to rescue Madeliene.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited July 2019 Posts: 1,030
    TripAces wrote: »
    SP may be the most frustrating Bond film ever made. Overall, it's middle of the pack, for me.

    The frustration stems for the film's first 115 minutes being really good. It's followed by a third act that is a mess...and based on the emails, what did we expect. The film was rushed into production before they had that third act. Equally frustrating is that the problems in that third act could have been easily fixed, if SM, DC, Babs, and Butterworth had used TSWLM as a model: the third acts are essentially very similar.

    I had no problems with the cinematography, the score, or Mendes's general handling of the film, all of which have been bashed to exhaustion on this site...for no reason, really.

    Quick thoughts:

    PTS: Fantastic
    Funeral scene and encounter with Lucia: Fantastic (Love Bond's little wave here)
    Spectre meeting: Fantastic
    Meeting with Mr White: Fantastic
    Clinic scene: Fantastic (love two lines here: about cutting out the middle man and telling one of the guards: Stay!)
    Morocco: Fantastic (even liked the mouse, and the finding of the hidden room)
    Train fight: doubly fantastic
    And then some of my favorite 10 seconds of Bond film ever: the "Writings on the Wall" instrumental, as the train makes its way through the desert, the sunset in the bg, and then the cut to Bond and Madeleine being dropped off....GREAT!!!!!)

    But then the film starts to fall apart quickly, unfortunately.

    The third act really needed to follow a simple formula: Bond goes after villain, who's holding Bond girl captive, in a place that is going about to blow up, but needs to get through henchman first. Then he kills henchman and villain and saves the girl.

    Hinx needed to make a return at the very end. The helicopter fight should have been reserved for the two of them, over London, not Mexico City. They crash, with Blofeld's escaping (if they so desire). The final scene should NOT have been Bond letting Blofeld go, but racing against time to rescue Madeliene.

    👏🏼👏🏼 100% agree with this assessment! Spectre is an overly bloated film, there’s way too much going on, and they devastatingly cocked up the third act. However, there’s several bits to love in there. Somewhere in that giant sh#tstorm there’s a great Bond film... and for that reason it sits in the middle of the pack for me.

    I’m hoping in a hypothetical future scenario we can cut from the excellent train scene in Morocco straight into Bond 25 (and pretend that Blofeld lair/author of pain/MI6 blowup part doesn’t even exist). Optimistic I know.
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