SPECTRE: What would you have done differently?

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  • AgentJamesBond007AgentJamesBond007 Vesper’s grave
    Posts: 2,632
    I found Spectre's Rome car chase to be too slow to enjoy. I attempted to rectify it by removing some distracting elements. The audio in this is from the score and is isolated to not distract as a result of the cuts.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2019 Posts: 6,306
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I’ve said it before; I’d love to see her killed pre-opening Gun Barrel.

    God knows where the gunbarrel will be this time.

    But back to Swann, the most interesting would be if she left Bond of her own free will in the PTS. It would be very Tiffany Case of her.
    Revelator wrote: »
    I would not have tied the Oberhauser/adoption plot to Blofeld. As in the books and previous films, I’d kept Blofeld a much bigger mystery and wouldn’t reveal him at all...If, for some legal reason, the name really had to be used, simply drop the name on a document found by Bond during the mission or show it on SPECTRE documents, but just don’t reveal the arch-nemesis yet!

    SPECTRE could’ve entered into void left behind by Quantum, or evolved out of the remnants left behind by the Quantum organisation...
    While I did enjoy parts of the movie, it left me with a very bitter aftertaste. The return of SPECTRE should have been so much more intriguing.

    There was something intriguing in bringing up Bond's past with Oberhauser. I think the biggest mistake was in making Oberhauser and Blofeld the same character. Re-imagine Oberhauser as a Largo-type character. They could still have had the personal connection.

    It's also really unclear to me as I type it how Blofeld was "the author of Bond's pain" when the events of CR and QoS are from Quantum, not Spectre. Don't even get me started on the retrofitting of SF.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Craig had a large part to play in Brofeld I'm afraid. It's why he got a producer credit.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    edited February 2019 Posts: 2,730
    I just cant believe that Brothergate was able to get past so many people and nobody stopped to think that it sucks an idea. It got past all four writers, two producers, a director, and Daniel Craig, and they all presumably were okay with the idea.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited February 2019 Posts: 2,252
    It's not that surprising. A lot of mainstream TV shows / movies have a 'figure from the past' as a villain, have the protagonist battle 'personal demons', or have the hero's family kidnapped, etc. Takes me out of the experience if that happens in any movie/tv. Was hoping Bond wouldn't head into that trope territory but personal/emotional angles must work with audiences
  • I agree that the general concept isn't surprising per se; what's surprising to me is how poorly it lands. When Waltz says "I'm ESB," it just flops. Surely in test screenings or even just looking at dailies, how could they not have seen that it didn't work?
  • Posts: 4,044
    They seemed to want to underplay that delivery.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2019 Posts: 6,306
    I suppose that this was the sequence of events:

    1. Eon had just gotten the rights to Spectre and wanted to use the organization after several decades.
    2. It was unclear how many more Bond films Craig would do.
    3. Therefore, they decided to accelerate making Blofeld Craig's main foe (unlike DN, FRWL, TB).

    Given that sequence, I wish they had figured out the transition from Quantum to Spectre a lot better.

    What is so frustrating is that they had the DN and FRWL pieces in place with CR and QoS with Mr. White. As far as what we had seen onscreen so far, *White* is the link to Vesper, not Blofeld. So give us more scenes with Bond and White, as opposed to VHS tapes and Kinko printouts of Vesper. And perhaps have Blofeld execute White for failure, or at least Hinx on Blofeld's orders (which appears to be kind of, sort of, the idea--or is it the poisoning? The screenplay can't decide, and in not making a choice, confuses everything).

    That scene in Austria, while well-acted, really botched the screenplay's structure.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    I think the three major things that actually annoyed me about Spectre was...

    1. The step-brother angle for Ernst Stavro Blofeld.
    2. The inclusion of Raoul Silva in the organisation.
    3. The waste of Léa Seydoux.

    I've actually personally completely ignored Silva's involvement. I refuse to believe the events of Skyfall were done for anything other than his own motivations. In my mind, Silva isn't a member of Spectre.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I think the three major things that actually annoyed me about Spectre was...

    1. The step-brother angle for Ernst Stavro Blofeld.
    2. The inclusion of Raoul Silva in the organisation.
    3. The waste of Léa Seydoux.

    I've actually personally completely ignored Silva's involvement. I refuse to believe the events of Skyfall were done for anything other than his own motivations. In my mind, Silva isn't a member of Spectre.

    Same here.
    It was a stupid and lazy thing to do.

    SF is stand-alone to me and always will be,and it makes the enjoyment of it all the more .

  • One thing I wonder is, maybe Blofeld is messing with Bond's head and Silva (or Le chiffre and Green) was not really a part of the Spectre organization in the end. I also still view Skyfall as a standalone Bond adventure, either way.

    The most glaring problem with Spectre its 3rd act, but even rewriting it wouldn't help much because you would need to basically rewrite the whole script besides the pre-titles.

    Another thing I would change: Sam Mendes & Thomas Newman. I've got no issues with either of them for Skyfall. But their hearts were not in it for the next installment, unfortunately.
  • AgentJamesBond007AgentJamesBond007 Vesper’s grave
    Posts: 2,632
    One thing I wonder is, maybe Blofeld is messing with Bond's head and Silva (or Le chiffre and Green) was not really a part of the Spectre organization in the end. I also still view Skyfall as a standalone Bond adventure, either way.

    The most glaring problem with Spectre its 3rd act, but even rewriting it wouldn't help much because you would need to basically rewrite the whole script besides the pre-titles.

    Another thing I would change: Sam Mendes & Thomas Newman. I've got no issues with either of them for Skyfall. But their hearts were not in it for the next installment, unfortunately.

    It didn’t help that he was connected via the ring either.

    t7v8bjaps5g21.jpg
  • Well...there it is! I would definitely change this aspect of Spectre. It's very.. unnecessary.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Birdleson wrote: »
    That is astounding. Especially seeing that I haven’t come across anyone, even among those who love the film, that thinks that was a good idea. Yet no one at EON said anything. Most people must have known but were afraid to rock the boat if it’s what Craig wanted.

    This is the same EON that green-lit the CGI kite surfing and invisible car. They have form.

    Just hoping the rumours they wanted to kill Bond in B25 are not true
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,970
    w2bond wrote: »
    It's not that surprising. A lot of mainstream TV shows / movies have a 'figure from the past' as a villain, have the protagonist battle 'personal demons', or have the hero's family kidnapped, etc. Takes me out of the experience if that happens in any movie/tv. Was hoping Bond wouldn't head into that trope territory but personal/emotional angles must work with audiences
    This is why I think Waltz should not return, because they can't retcon what they've created, so to him again on screen knowing the whole step-brother angle just bothers me. I think it'll be for the best if they leave him in Spectre, and maybe reboot him again further down the line in the new Bond's era.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    @echo Bear in mind EON bought the rights to SPECTRE because Mendes and Logan wanted to use them, not the other way round.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Walecs wrote: »
    @echo Bear in mind EON bought the rights to SPECTRE because Mendes and Logan wanted to use them, not the other way round.

    I doubt this is the case. I think EON wanted to buy up the whole TB rights for decades, SPECTRE included.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited February 2019 Posts: 2,541
    SPECTRE'S copyright had nothing to do with Mendes, they were looking for that in years. Finally got settle in 2013 and Mendes wasn't keen on directing another bond film after skyfall so I don't believe that rumour.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    Getafix wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    @echo Bear in mind EON bought the rights to SPECTRE because Mendes and Logan wanted to use them, not the other way round.

    I doubt this is the case. I think EON wanted to buy up the whole TB rights for decades, SPECTRE included.

    MGW is a lawyer and they have chasing down all the alternate rights (the novels that Fleming sold to others) over the decades, to avoid another OP/NSNA showdown.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited February 2019 Posts: 4,343
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I think the three major things that actually annoyed me about Spectre was...

    1. The step-brother angle for Ernst Stavro Blofeld.
    2. The inclusion of Raoul Silva in the organisation.
    3. The waste of Léa Seydoux.

    I've actually personally completely ignored Silva's involvement. I refuse to believe the events of Skyfall were done for anything other than his own motivations. In my mind, Silva isn't a member of Spectre.

    Same here.
    It was a stupid and lazy thing to do.

    SF is stand-alone to me and always will be,and it makes the enjoyment of it all the more .

    "All to the best bidder". Silva is not really a SPECTRE agent, but a freelance terrorist hired by SPECTRE. SP doesn't contradict that, since Silva was mentioned to be linked with SP.

    The point is Silva was hired by Blofeld just because of his anger towards Mommy, so SPECTRE gave him the resources to pull off his vengeance in order to destabilize MI6 while at the same time damaging (hopefully, killing) Bond. So, no reason to believe SP ruined Silva's genuine motivations. Blofeld wanted a double victory - one for business, one for damaging Bond - and hired someone able to fulfill his expectations, pulling the strings in the shadows.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    matt_u wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I think the three major things that actually annoyed me about Spectre was...

    1. The step-brother angle for Ernst Stavro Blofeld.
    2. The inclusion of Raoul Silva in the organisation.
    3. The waste of Léa Seydoux.

    I've actually personally completely ignored Silva's involvement. I refuse to believe the events of Skyfall were done for anything other than his own motivations. In my mind, Silva isn't a member of Spectre.

    Same here.
    It was a stupid and lazy thing to do.

    SF is stand-alone to me and always will be,and it makes the enjoyment of it all the more .

    "All to the best bidder". Silva is not really a SPECTRE agent, but a freelance terrorist hired by SPECTRE. SP doesn't contradict that, since Silva was mentioned to be linked with SP.

    The point is Silva was hired by Blofeld just because of his anger towards Mommy, so SPECTRE gave him the resources to pull off his vengeance in order to destabilize MI6 while at the same time damaging (hopefully, killing) Bond. So, no reason to believe SP ruined Silva's genuine motivations. Blofeld wanted a double victory - one for business, one for damaging Bond - and hired someone able to fulfill his expectations, pulling the strings in the shadows.

    And in one post, you've put more thought into SP than either Logan or Mendes.
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 17,763
    Re. Blofeld and Spectre (the organization), I wish they could have approached it differently. Maybe something like Spectre appearing as Quantum with a new name, led by Mr. White – who is using the Blofeld name as a cover. Jesper Christensen's character was almost a Blofeld like character to the Craig era already.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,970
    Re. Blofeld and Spectre (the organization), I wish they could have approached it differently. Maybe something like Spectre appearing as Quantum with a new name, led by Mr. White – who is using the Blofeld name as a cover. Jesper Christensen's character was almost a Blofeld like character to the Craig era already.
    I believe they should've just avoided the connection. It doesn't really make any sense. They should've just left Quantum a mystery. After all, apparently Greene told 007 "everything you need to know about Quantum", but we have no idea what that information was and why James Bond didn't already about S.P.E.C.T.R.E, and Greene was even connected to the ring, so it's like he didn't bloody know.

    Quantum could've just been the SMERSH of the modern-era, with no connection. It would've saved a lot of trouble and especially would've made for a more interesting introduction. Also, if they wanted White, he could've just defected to SPECTRE (like Rosa Klebb did) after Greene revealed all.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Re. Blofeld and Spectre (the organization), I wish they could have approached it differently. Maybe something like Spectre appearing as Quantum with a new name, led by Mr. White – who is using the Blofeld name as a cover. Jesper Christensen's character was almost a Blofeld like character to the Craig era already.
    I believe they should've just avoided the connection. It doesn't really make any sense. They should've just left Quantum a mystery. After all, apparently Greene told 007 "everything you need to know about Quantum", but we have no idea what that information was and why James Bond didn't already about S.P.E.C.T.R.E, and Greene was even connected to the ring, so it's like he didn't bloody know.

    Quantum could've just been the SMERSH of the modern-era, with no connection. It would've saved a lot of trouble and especially would've made for a more interesting introduction. Also, if they wanted White, he could've just defected to SPECTRE (like Rosa Klebb did) after Greene revealed all.

    +1.
  • Posts: 17,763
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Re. Blofeld and Spectre (the organization), I wish they could have approached it differently. Maybe something like Spectre appearing as Quantum with a new name, led by Mr. White – who is using the Blofeld name as a cover. Jesper Christensen's character was almost a Blofeld like character to the Craig era already.
    I believe they should've just avoided the connection. It doesn't really make any sense. They should've just left Quantum a mystery. After all, apparently Greene told 007 "everything you need to know about Quantum", but we have no idea what that information was and why James Bond didn't already about S.P.E.C.T.R.E, and Greene was even connected to the ring, so it's like he didn't bloody know.

    Quantum could've just been the SMERSH of the modern-era, with no connection. It would've saved a lot of trouble and especially would've made for a more interesting introduction. Also, if they wanted White, he could've just defected to SPECTRE (like Rosa Klebb did) after Greene revealed all.

    Of course they could have avoided the connection completely, as well.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Re. Blofeld and Spectre (the organization), I wish they could have approached it differently. Maybe something like Spectre appearing as Quantum with a new name, led by Mr. White – who is using the Blofeld name as a cover. Jesper Christensen's character was almost a Blofeld like character to the Craig era already.
    I believe they should've just avoided the connection. It doesn't really make any sense. They should've just left Quantum a mystery. After all, apparently Greene told 007 "everything you need to know about Quantum", but we have no idea what that information was and why James Bond didn't already about S.P.E.C.T.R.E, and Greene was even connected to the ring, so it's like he didn't bloody know.

    Quantum could've just been the SMERSH of the modern-era, with no connection. It would've saved a lot of trouble and especially would've made for a more interesting introduction. Also, if they wanted White, he could've just defected to SPECTRE (like Rosa Klebb did) after Greene revealed all.

    Of course they could have avoided the connection completely, as well.

    Precisely :) I'm actually working on my own script for Bond 24, basically rebooting the entire film we did get, so keep on eye out for when I release that. I'm in the early stages so all these discussions are very helpful.
  • Posts: 17,763
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Re. Blofeld and Spectre (the organization), I wish they could have approached it differently. Maybe something like Spectre appearing as Quantum with a new name, led by Mr. White – who is using the Blofeld name as a cover. Jesper Christensen's character was almost a Blofeld like character to the Craig era already.
    I believe they should've just avoided the connection. It doesn't really make any sense. They should've just left Quantum a mystery. After all, apparently Greene told 007 "everything you need to know about Quantum", but we have no idea what that information was and why James Bond didn't already about S.P.E.C.T.R.E, and Greene was even connected to the ring, so it's like he didn't bloody know.

    Quantum could've just been the SMERSH of the modern-era, with no connection. It would've saved a lot of trouble and especially would've made for a more interesting introduction. Also, if they wanted White, he could've just defected to SPECTRE (like Rosa Klebb did) after Greene revealed all.

    Of course they could have avoided the connection completely, as well.

    Precisely :) I'm actually working on my own script for Bond 24, basically rebooting the entire film we did get, so keep on eye out for when I release that. I'm in the early stages so all these discussions are very helpful.

    Looking forward to read it! SP left so much to be desired, and even small changes could have made the film better, IMO.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    echo wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    @echo Bear in mind EON bought the rights to SPECTRE because Mendes and Logan wanted to use them, not the other way round.

    I doubt this is the case. I think EON wanted to buy up the whole TB rights for decades, SPECTRE included.

    MGW is a lawyer and they have chasing down all the alternate rights (the novels that Fleming sold to others) over the decades, to avoid another OP/NSNA showdown.

    very correct, sir @echo...
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Getafix wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    @echo Bear in mind EON bought the rights to SPECTRE because Mendes and Logan wanted to use them, not the other way round.

    I doubt this is the case. I think EON wanted to buy up the whole TB rights for decades, SPECTRE included.

    Are we arguing about this again? I already posted the proof that EON bought the rights because Mendes wanted to use them. Heck, whenever I say it I get the "I doubt this is the case" answer and every time I'm proven right.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    SPECTRE'S copyright had nothing to do with Mendes, they were looking for that in years. Finally got settle in 2013 and Mendes wasn't keen on directing another bond film after skyfall so I don't believe that rumour.

    It's not a rumor, it was Michael Wilson himself who said it, just read The James Bond Archives
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