SPECTRE: What would you have done differently?

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  • Posts: 4,617
    The final scene if SF is pivotal IMHO. It recognises all of the issues we have seen during the movie and all of the themes re "old and washed up" and it does wonderfully well to deal with these (pressing the reset button) plus moving on from M's death. It shows Bond looking clean shaven, upright and very dapper, it shows the classic M office (recalling Bond at his peak), it shows banter/empathy between Bond and new M and the final words plus music are delivered with utter confidence and style. It wreaks of "c'mon, let's go", it even shows us a physical representation of his next assignment (teasing us) sitting on the desk! (we all want to read it!). It really is a wonderful scene, one of my favourites within SF. (and in less than 40 seconds) and very considerate regarding passing on the series to the next writer/directer.

    So the slate is clean (both for Bond and the audience - we both have an appetite for new adventures) with the supporting cast in place

    BUT, rather than move forward, they move back.

    There is no excuse for SP, non.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited February 2019 Posts: 4,006
    patb wrote: »
    The final scene if SF is pivotal IMHO. It recognises all of the issues we have seen during the movie and all of the themes re "old and washed up" and it does wonderfully well to deal with these (pressing the reset button) plus moving on from M's death. It shows Bond looking clean shaven, upright and very dapper, it shows the classic M office (recalling Bond at his peak), it shows banter/empathy between Bond and new M and the final words plus music are delivered with utter confidence and style. It wreaks of "c'mon, let's go", it even shows us a physical representation of his next assignment (teasing us) sitting on the desk! (we all want to read it!). It really is a wonderful scene, one of my favourites within SF. (and in less than 40 seconds) and very considerate regarding passing on the series to the next writer/directer.

    So the slate is clean (both for Bond and the audience - we both have an appetite for new adventures) with the supporting cast in place

    BUT, rather than move forward, they move back.

    There is no excuse for SP, non.

    Good post. You're right, the makers had a clean slate so to speak and delivered a weak regressive script. Yet again putting in a personal angle whilst foolishly trying to tie all the previous films into this ridiculous scenario.
  • Posts: 11,425
    TR007 wrote: »
    Get rid of the awful character stills that represent Vesper and LeChiffre when Bond enters Mi6 at the end of the movie. So silly.

    They're so bad. They look so cheap and naf
    patb wrote: »
    The final scene if SF is pivotal IMHO. It recognises all of the issues we have seen during the movie and all of the themes re "old and washed up" and it does wonderfully well to deal with these (pressing the reset button) plus moving on from M's death. It shows Bond looking clean shaven, upright and very dapper, it shows the classic M office (recalling Bond at his peak), it shows banter/empathy between Bond and new M and the final words plus music are delivered with utter confidence and style. It wreaks of "c'mon, let's go", it even shows us a physical representation of his next assignment (teasing us) sitting on the desk! (we all want to read it!). It really is a wonderful scene, one of my favourites within SF. (and in less than 40 seconds) and very considerate regarding passing on the series to the next writer/directer.

    So the slate is clean (both for Bond and the audience - we both have an appetite for new adventures) with the supporting cast in place

    BUT, rather than move forward, they move back.

    There is no excuse for SP, non.

    They've wiped the slate clean with every Craig entry. It's getting a bit tedious
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,970
    I would've stuck with the ending that Skyfall provided. I completely accept wanting to bring back S.P.E.C.T.R.E. but to connect it back to Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace, just made things complicated. Why not just make Quantum, the SMERSH of this new continuity. A small organisation that tried and failed.

    Now, we're introduced to S.P.E.C.T.R.E, an organisation that is way better at their job. With this, they could leave Vesper, Le Chiffre and Mr. White behind, and Silva could be in the independent villain, like Auric Goldfinger was. If they had done this, we could've had S.P.E.C.T.R.E without all the complications.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,006
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I would've stuck with the ending that Skyfall provided. I completely accept wanting to bring back S.P.E.C.T.R.E. but to connect it back to Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace, just made things complicated. Why not just make Quantum, the SMERSH of this new continuity. A small organisation that tried and failed.

    Now, we're introduced to S.P.E.C.T.R.E, an organisation that is way better at their job. With this, they could leave Vesper, Le Chiffre and Mr. White behind, and Silva could be in the independent villain, like Auric Goldfinger was. If they had done this, we could've had S.P.E.C.T.R.E without all the complications.

    Exactly right. SP can be filed under, 'seemed like a good idea at the time..'

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited February 2019 Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    The final scene if SF is pivotal IMHO. It recognises all of the issues we have seen during the movie and all of the themes re "old and washed up" and it does wonderfully well to deal with these (pressing the reset button) plus moving on from M's death. It shows Bond looking clean shaven, upright and very dapper, it shows the classic M office (recalling Bond at his peak), it shows banter/empathy between Bond and new M and the final words plus music are delivered with utter confidence and style. It wreaks of "c'mon, let's go", it even shows us a physical representation of his next assignment (teasing us) sitting on the desk! (we all want to read it!). It really is a wonderful scene, one of my favourites within SF. (and in less than 40 seconds) and very considerate regarding passing on the series to the next writer/directer.

    So the slate is clean (both for Bond and the audience - we both have an appetite for new adventures) with the supporting cast in place

    BUT, rather than move forward, they move back.

    There is no excuse for SP, non.
    Good post. I would have added "/actor" to the end of "writer/director" above.

    I think SF served as a great ending to the Craig arc. SP was entirely unnecessary.
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    patb wrote: »
    So the slate is clean (both for Bond and the audience - we both have an appetite for new adventures) with the supporting cast in place

    BUT, rather than move forward, they move back.

    And yet, with Seydoux returning, they might be moving back once again.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited February 2019 Posts: 40,976
    patb wrote: »
    So the slate is clean (both for Bond and the audience - we both have an appetite for new adventures) with the supporting cast in place

    BUT, rather than move forward, they move back.

    And yet, with Seydoux returning, they might be moving back once again.

    You lot have no idea how disappointingly upsetting this is to me, just how many fantastic Bond girls we've had who were one and done, and the utterly worst Bond girl (in my opinion) will get two appearances in a row.
  • I don't like the concept of a Bond girl returning either, especially in a significant capacity. It takes away the novelty of a new Bond movie IMO. The apppeal is always new mission, new Bond girl, new villain for me.

    But I'm in a wait and see mode. After all Fallout was great with Ethan's wife showing up. Maybe it'll work. Hopefully...
  • Posts: 4,044
    I don't like the concept of a Bond girl returning either, especially in a significant capacity. It takes away the novelty of a new Bond movie IMO. The apppeal is always new mission, new Bond girl, new villain for me.

    But I'm in a wait and see mode. After all Fallout was great with Ethan's wife showing up. Maybe it'll work. Hopefully...

    Let's hope Bond doesn't keep saying he's sorry all the time.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,006
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    So the slate is clean (both for Bond and the audience - we both have an appetite for new adventures) with the supporting cast in place

    BUT, rather than move forward, they move back.

    And yet, with Seydoux returning, they might be moving back once again.

    You lot have no idea how disappointingly upsetting this is to me, just how many fantastic Bond girls we've had who were one and done, and the utterly worst Bond girl (in my opinion) will get two appearances in a row.

    Perhaps she'll get blown away in the PTS...
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    While that would certainly be nice, I fear it'll open things up to us having another revenge-driven Craig-Bond going after those who killed his loved one; a soft OHMSS reboot that they didn't toy with more during SP. I hope it's not the case, but then again, I suppose that's about as "good" a Swann performance as I'll get - a PTS exit.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,006
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    While that would certainly be nice, I fear it'll open things up to us having another revenge-driven Craig-Bond going after those who killed his loved one; a soft OHMSS reboot that they didn't toy with more during SP. I hope it's not the case, but then again, I suppose that's about as "good" a Swann performance as I'll get - a PTS exit.

    Unfortunately i think you may be right about a soft OHMSS reboot.

    Definitely seems like the direction its going.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,131
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I’ve said it before; I’d love to see her killed pre-opening Gun Barrel.

    Harsh. Ha ha ha!
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I’ve said it before; I’d love to see her killed pre-opening Gun Barrel.
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I’ve said it before; I’d love to see her killed pre-opening Gun Barrel.

    Harsh.
    I don't like the concept of a Bond girl returning either, especially in a significant capacity. It takes away the novelty of a new Bond movie IMO. The apppeal is always new mission, new Bond girl, new villain for me.

    But I'm in a wait and see mode. After all Fallout was great with Ethan's wife showing up. Maybe it'll work. Hopefully...

    It happened in the books, so I’m ok with it....as long as it’s only a cameo.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited February 2019 Posts: 40,976
    @suavejmf, it's happened in the films, too. The problem I have is that they've picked the worst Bond girl to return, not that one is actually returning (although if I had to choose, I'd probably almost always elect to have a new Bond girl with each film, versus having them return).
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 17,756
    To be honest, scrap the entire film. Found no enjoyment from the film when watching it in the theatre (a first for a Bond film), and the impression have got worse the few times I've watched it again.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,131
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @suavejmf, it's happened in the films, too. The problem I have is that they've picked the worst Bond girl to return, not that one is actually returning (although if I had to choose, I'd probably almost always elect to have a new Bond girl with each film, versus having them return).

    I agree, she’s not the best Bond girl by far. But I’m ok with it as long as the appearance is short lived.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Yes, it'll be much easier to handle if she bites the bullet in the opening minutes.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2019 Posts: 5,970
    I'm excited for Seydoux to get another chance. She had the potential to be a great Bond girl, and they ruined her chances with Spectre.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited February 2019 Posts: 13,978
    What if she is killed off during the PTS, Craig turns to camera and says "Easy come, easy go" and then go the title sequence?

    Personally, I think Seydoux is gorgeous, but Madeline Swan was such a dull character.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I've always felt she should have kept her mouth shut. Tom knew how to use her properly. She hardly spoke in GP.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Bit harsh guys.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Bit harsh guys.
    Please forgive the Connery'esque brusque insertion. I couldn't resist. I'm just kidding, although she's hardly my favourite actress or character in a Bond film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Birdleson wrote: »
    If EON really wants to return to being cutting edge they should kill her off in the trailer and be done with her by the time we get to the film proper.

    That would be quite the marketing stunt right there, @Birdleson. ;-)
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Changing Denbigh to the same age as Mallory and making him an old friend would be much better. Oldman, Issacs, Eccleston or Strong for that role.

    M would be on board with everything till the rug was pulled from under him, the story would be about the idea of M realizing the value of Bond and their relationship could start once things are resolved.

    No Oberhauser, ESB would be a mystery kept in the shadows and would only reveal his identity to Bond at the desert base.

    Just some ideas, I have the whole film mapped out, free of the personal angle and the brother angle tackled through ESB and White .

    Also, the PTS is not got that terrible CGI explosion, Sciarra is arriving to do a hit not blow anything up, the hit is on White which Bond foils trying to assassinate Sciarra, White would be seen in profile and the audience and Bond wouldn't know who it is till the Austria sequence.

    Bond would chase Sciarra to the helicopter and then it would pretty much play out as in the film, the main credits would be minus the DC octoporn and I'd replace WOTW with the very first song that was originally commissioned before being rejected by EON due to it having been played live for over a decade, Radiohead's Man of War.

  • Mark_HazzardMark_Hazzard Classified
    Posts: 127
    As mentioned a lot around here, I would not have tied the Oberhauser/adoption plot to Blofeld. As in the books and previous films, I’d kept Blofeld a much bigger mystery and wouldn’t reveal him at all. At most I’d use a silhouette of a man and a white cat. If, for some legal reason, the name really had to be used, simply drop the name on a document found by Bond during the mission or show it on SPECTRE documents, but just don’t reveal the arch-nemesis yet!

    SPECTRE could’ve entered into void left behind by Quantum, or evolved out of the remnants left behind by the Quantum organisation. Oberhauser could’ve been a random SPECTRE agent, but I’d rather have Bond stumble upon SPECTRE by chance instead of tying the previous DC movies into an overarching plot. It really feels like forced and cheap the way they wrote the connections to the other movies. Compare this to CR, which was written so well...

    While I did enjoy parts of the movie, it left me with a very bitter aftertaste. The return of SPECRTE should have been so much more intriguing.
  • Posts: 2,918
    I would not have tied the Oberhauser/adoption plot to Blofeld. As in the books and previous films, I’d kept Blofeld a much bigger mystery and wouldn’t reveal him at all...If, for some legal reason, the name really had to be used, simply drop the name on a document found by Bond during the mission or show it on SPECTRE documents, but just don’t reveal the arch-nemesis yet!

    SPECTRE could’ve entered into void left behind by Quantum, or evolved out of the remnants left behind by the Quantum organisation...
    While I did enjoy parts of the movie, it left me with a very bitter aftertaste. The return of SPECTRE should have been so much more intriguing.

    I agree entirely. Blofeld's primary value is that of a recurring villain. I simply do not understand the point of introducing and defeating the character in the space of just one film. Look at how the 60s Bond films so skillfully used Spectre and Blofeld as a recurring, mounting threat. A freelance terrorist organization run on corporate principles is just as relevant a threat to today's world as it was in the 60s, especially since box office considerations prevent using the Russians and Chinese as villains. But the film Spectre rushed through material that could have powered several films, because the filmmakers didn't know if Craig would return, so they tried to both wrap up the continuity of the previous films and introduce (and defeat) Spectre and Blofeld. The attempt to unify those aims was shoddy and probably not worth doing in the first place.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I'd have had an ambiguous ending where Bond thinks he dispatched him but it won't be a clear cut case of it, so he could emerge into the shadows once again, then EON could make him appear again whenever they wanted.

    SPECTRE would have been for me resolving Haines involvement from QOS and Silva wouldn't be SPECTRE, he would be a useful thug that ESB used to attempt to get rid of Dench's M and ESB would reveal it to Bond at the end to press his buttons.

    I would link Haines to Denbigh, if you wanted to tie them together there is so much within the mythology of the DC era that P&W could have used rather than that daft ring DNA nonsense and making ESB Bonds nemesis from as far back as his childhood.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    As an apparently rare Spectre lover, I'd really just change the foster brother thing.

    I’m another real SP lover. I also find it one of the most rewatchable in the whole saga. Having said that I would’ve change a couple things.

    - Delete the Mickey Mouse bit;
    - Use a real Roman palace and not a British one;
    - Better establish why Blofeld was so envy towards Bond;
    - Delete the printed faces of the figures of Bond’s past hanged on the MI6’s building walls;
    - I would’ve put another dialogue on the helicopter or after sex on the train for better establish Mads decision to leave Bond once he showed no interest to “stop”;
    - The CGI background on the helicopter fight could be better;
    - The Rome chase could’ve been more adrenalinic;
    - I would’ve put the mountains on the background in the clinic more on display, since they’re almost hidden;
    - They choose the worst possible angle for Rome’s panoramic shot in the beginning. They also should’ve wait for a sunny day, Jesus...
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