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I think TLJ may end up being like SP with the fans. Initial excitement and love purely due to being able to see a new movie and imerse ourselves in the World but then..after a while, you start thinking about it and, despite good individual scenes, as a complete movie, there are just too many weaknesses..too many holes..too many poor judgements with tone and, overall, a lack of a great story (and lack of a great villain)
Man, what a mess. Such a mixed bag. Despite some really strong moments and some lovely individual scenes, there was just so much wrong across the board - pacing and characterisation being a big issue.
Luke was not Luke. It felt all wrong. It feels so cynical that Disney have killed off another original character. Can't the old characters and the new exist simultaneously? Why do they feel the need to get rid of them? Mark Hamill was essentially playing a different character - one that was in total service to the plot rather than serving as an actual character. The film's reasoning for his exile was so weak that it made Luke seem pathetic. When we last saw him, he was the only Jedi left in the Galaxy. He was the ultimate symbol of hope - the man who managed to turn the most powerful villain in cinema history back to the side of good. Yet, they expect us to swallow the fact that he's exiled himself to death because of his first failure after that? Utter bollocks. The only scene where Hamill felt like he was playing Luke Skywalker was during the admittedly beautiful moments with Yoda.
Hamill is obviously the crux of the whole film, so the fact that they botched him means the film cannot be held up as a success - but he is not the only one that was failed. Finn was utterly wasted. That whole segment on Canto Bight, which was horrendous, existed solely to give him something to do. Finn went from one of the more interesting characters of The Force Awakens to a footnote in The Last Jedi. And as mentioned previously, Phasma was also wasted as a result. Not only that, but I think they managed to undermine Poe with a horrible feminist undertone. He was such a cool character in TFA, yet they went out of their way to make him seem like such an ass here for a very stupid reason. I almost did not like him by the end. And as for Snoke....
......at least Snoke offered a few genuine moments of interest and served as a good foil in the scenes with Rey and Kylo. Speaking of which, having not been too impressed with either Ridley or Driver previously, I loved them both in this film. Their scenes are the highlight of the film and they are the only two characters that seemed to have natural development throughout. Two very strong performances. Despite not being a fan of the Canto Bight sequence, I also liked Benecio Del Toro's character a lot. A good addition.
John Williams provided another masterful score, far more ballsy and relentless than some of his past offerings which offered many moments of romance/respite. The Last Jedi is a loud film filled with a number of impressive action sequences - the opening battle in particular is great. It's also worth mentioning that is a very beautiful film to look at. I also think the complaints about the humour are a bit overblown. Most of the gags are well-timed and not overdone. But.....
......I just wish I was more invested in it. Unfortunately, it feels like they sacrificed a lot of the good stuff that they had going for them for the sake of a few "surprises" that had little to no weight to them.
Overall, plenty of good but also plenty of bad. Feeling very divided on it. The characterisation sinks it for me.
It wasn't just that. Luke did say that Snoke had already gotten to Ben. Luke could sense the good in Vader but probably didn't in Ben and was fearful that he and Snoke would destroy everything he built. Not to mention Vader was tricked into joining the dark side, while Ben chose to do it.
Ben also convinced other Jedi into joining him, sometime before Luke confronted him (although It's unknown if Luke knew about that), and then destroying Luke's Jedi Order.
I've only seen the movie once but I think I remember Luke saying something along the lines of him letting his own "Legend" go to his head. Which was another thing he had a fear of losing. But he came to his senses and realised what he was doing. I assume he would've talked to Ben and tried to convince him to come back to the light. I have a feeling that wouldn't of worked because Ben chose to go down that path.
:))
Luke's character was undoubtedly surrendered, but from TFA. It would've been extremely difficult for TLJ to reclaim it from the horrible setup we had in TFA with Luke abandoning the galaxy. Mark Hamill gave a good performance for what he had to work with.
Kylo could have developed into the Darth replacement (great acting again) by killing his mum (how dark is that? killing both parents) and then killing Snoke out of blind ambition for power and then trying to kill Rey after she refuses to turn. But there is too much indecision and doubt within the character now to be the main villain. So that leaves JJ in a tough position because without a great villain that we all fear, what do you do?
Luke and Rey having to confront and kill Kylo (with Phasma as the sidekick/henchman) would have been a great climax to the next one IMHO.
Yeah, Johnson could have at least partially redeemed Luke's character by having him get out, but he never leaves that planet. Though the astral projection stuff wasn't too bad. A creative use of the Force.
I'm more concerned about his horrific pessimism and virtual nihilism — a complete affront to the optimistic hero we knew in the OT. Someone who persevered to redeem Vader at all costs somehow thinks that because he failed to rebuild the Jedi Order once, he needs to give up and ignore the galaxy's plight for years?
And I know it was added for the humour, but Luke throwing the lightsaber away at the start couldn't have been more out-of-character.
The film answers nothing about the map... or the Knights of Ren. Or how Maz Kanata found Luke's lightsaber. Almost none of the questions from TFA were answered.
Just goes to show how incoherent and disunited each of the film efforts were. Too much freedom was given to the directors and not enough on an overarching vision.
Agree... Lucas gets knocked for the prequels though there is a clear arc through the films, I read JJ has only just pitched his idea for Episode 9 this past week. I find it amusing JJ will have to most likely undo elements of Episode 8, Disney will make tons of money though it's a bit slap dash.
I still need to see TLJ a second time, but as I've said in previous posts, TLJ left me feeling a little disappointed. Certainly not the film I was expecting. Far too many questions unanswered. Along with many new ones.
No real story, and story arc's that could be completely omitted without any problem.
I like the character of Finn and Rose. However their entire story could be removed and it wouldn't effect the film one bit. Same with Poe.
Luke Skywalker was nice too see, but the character is not the one from the original films. Even Leia was underused. At the time they had no idea sadly of the imminent passing of Carrie Fisher.
The villains are far too bumbling and almost like pantomime villains. Hux is nothing more than a snarling buffoon for most of the film. Snoke is who? What?
He leads the first order, seduces Ben Solo to the dark side, but we know no more about him than we did in TFA.
I believe that prior to Rian Johnson coming onboard, Lawrence Kasdan had written a treatment for episode 8 that some of the actors saw and said was very good, and worked well. When Rian Johnson took the helm that story was removed and Johnson wrote the story himself.
Bad move imo. Whilst the film is visually what you would expect for a Star Wars film, tonally and story wise it's a bloody mess. I didn't care about any of the characters in the film. The ones that were sacrificed were too unused for me to worry if they lived or died. Only Luke's demise was one that had any emotion and too be fair, I kind of liked that he became one with the force. I just wish they'd used him better.
Certainly a middle of the road entry for me and easily the worst of the films since Disney has been in control. I guess at the end of the day it all comes down to how much Disney profit from it. And based on not only the BO take, but the massive merchandising that a film like this produces, I don't think Disney will have to worry too much.
Lots of work for JJ Abrams to do to redeem this.
* sell us a story involving a big bad which is just going to "sit this one out" while pursuing ships about to run out of steam;
* give us a big bad which, last time we checked, had suffered a tremendous defeat, yet appears quite undamaged overall, rendering the previous film somewhat less meaningful;
* throw in useless sub-plots which amount to absolutely nothing, like Canto Bight and Poe's redundant mutiny, especially given the film's unnecessarily long running time;
* attempt perhaps too much comedy in a film that doesn't benefit from that in any way--and let's not forget that the kids of today are the grown-ups of tomorrow; those who were 6 in '99 have since turned against TPM too;
* reveal so little about Snoke, Rey's heritage, the story of Rey's lightsaber... ANYTHING to perpetuate the sense that the dark mysteries so conveniently hinted at during TFW are building towards something big;
* "PC checklist" the film in a very heavy way;
* not have it be Akbar who flies the main rebel ship into the New Order main battle cruiser, but to instead sacrifice a new character we have little use for anyway; with our beloved Akbar killed off screen, here's a missed opportunity for ya;
* not have Rey join Kylo Ren in attempting a neither dark nor light Force inspired New Order.
Whenever the film could have easily harvested some of the more interesting ideas which were planted as fresh seeds in TFA, it went "starwarsius interruptus"; whenever fascinating new ground could have been explored, perfectly befitting traditional Star Wars lore but challenging it at the same time, TLJ opted for the safe way out.
There's a lot to be enjoyed in TLJ, but rather than going for the timeless qualities of SW and ESB, it felt obliged to get stuck in 2017. All-inclusive, pro-feminist, say no to war, ... RO had me super-jazzed; I loved the characters, I loved the nihilism, I loved the conflicts and the perfect Star Wars continuity, ... RO had filled me with hope that TFA, though in a different section of the canon, would also be more daring, possibly more nihilistic. I guess I was wrong. I fault the editing more than anything else. There's great material in TLJ, but if someone had pulled a "Marcia Lucas" and delivered 120 cohesive, faster-and-more-intense minutes, the rock-and-roll we all love in Star Wars might have been a part of this film too. I stand by everything I have written before, including how good a time I have with TLJ and how I view Star Wars in a different way than I do the average Fincher, Mann, Kubrick, Hitchcock, Nolan, ... film. Also, the opening star battle, the Praetorian fight, Yoda, ... there are great moments in this film. I only hope they'll never be entirely overshadowed for me by some of the things I have mentioned above.
Current ranking (which can change on a day-to-day basis):
1) SW + ESB
2) ROTJ + ROTS + RO
3) TFA
4) AOTC + TLJ
5) TPM
The problem is that everything else really isn't that compelling and that's a big problem for a movie that's two and a half hours long. The Canto Bight sequence is heavily criticzed and sure, it's flawed, but I found myself just as bored with the Resistance being slowly chased through space by the First Order. I didn't care about Admiral Holdo at all, which is problematic since she makes such a big sacrifice at the end. Oscar Isaac is a good actor, but I feel he's wasted here because there's not much for him to do.
Also, I just feel like we're telling the same old story over and over again. Perhaps the film needed to go all in and have Rey join Kylo and see where that took us. The end battle, as great as the visuals and effects were, really felt like Hoth 2.0 to me. I'm finding it very hard to care about this supposed conflict between the F.O. and the Resistance. It seems as though we're back to calling them Rebels again too, as a few characters mentioned during the film.
Luke's death still bothers me. There really was no good reason to do it. I would be looking forward to IX so much more if he was still alive. His sacrifice was handled well I suppose, but a real showdown with Ben would have been much more satisfying. I think part of the fans' disappointment was that we were expecting something radically different and we didn't get that. How much of that were we promised and how much was built up in our imaginations? It's hard to say.
TLJ delivered and then some and I am glad they took a road less liked and interesting, they leave so many questions up in the air for the final installment that 2 years is way too long for my taste. At least it is two years unlike a certain other franchise who fails to deliver.
Maybe the will answer even less questions in the next one
So far the Disney franchises have given plenty good material and the paranoid thinking about Disney, shown in another thread about EON and the house of Mouse, is a great example.
Star Wars has been in a far better shape in the last two years than since the early eighties with Return of the Jedi. Three good and excellent movies that do not follow fanfiction but dare to go their own way.
I expect Luke back in the next movie and Leia as well in some sort or shape.
Yeah don’t worry about trying to make sense of this terrible film
Lol its great some folk like it though despite visually looking great, it's a disappointment and I love Star Wars.
Someone mentioned a Kasden treatment. I would love to see that, link anyone?
I read Kasden's treatment was totally rejected by Johnson, TLJ is way too bloated and was in need of serious editing. Poor writing in TLJ case is being touted by some as risk taking, the irony is that the film costantly sits on the fence throughout and is reluctant to commit to anything, being ambigious and none committal with most of the major plot points is weak not daring.
Watching the BBC doc last night, I did not realises the Gareth Edwards was such a fan. Before he got into directing, he went on hols to Tunisia so he could visit Luke's home. He was a genuine fan. Whether you like RO or not, something that cannot be denied is that it utterly respects the orignal 3 both in look and in spirit. It does nothing to undermine the characters or the legacy.
I don't think the same can be said for TLJ
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I know he's getting a bit of flak around here, but I quite like Kylo in TLJ. He is much more composed this time around compared to TFA, and I appreciate that, although his occasional emo outbursts are also a hoot.
I actually also like the fact that he didn't shoot mummy. It shows that he's conflicted and there's still a possibility of some good in him. I don't blame him for wanting to kill Luke though. After all, his master tried to betray him. Adam Driver is a pretty impressive actor I must say. This is the only thing I've seen him in apart from Logan Lucky.
Regarding the issues around TLJ: I think it's still possible to address them in a cohesive manner with SW-9. The final film has a lot of work to do in order to pull everything together for a successful resolution however, and I hope it delivers. If I were them, I wouldn't introduce too many new characters next time around, but rather focus on closing out the chapter properly.