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The Last Jedi SPOILER THREAD

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  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,361
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    @chrisisall

    I'm conflicted on Hamill as his performance was really good but he was playing a version of a character that I love but didn't recognise in this film.

    The reason I didn't cry when he did the Jedi-fade at the end was that the whole film didn't feel quite right to me. He did a tour-de-force (no pun intended) acting job here, but like I said above, this is just really good fan fiction to me.
    In MY view, Leia went on to become a full-on Jedi, and help battle other threats to Galactic freedom.

    I was actually annoyed at myself for not feeling too emotional during that Binary Sunset scene in TLJ. I said to myself "this is a great moment, right? Why doesn't it feel like it?"

    It was then that I realised the film had completely failed to connect with me, despite my enjoyment of it.

    I had shaken my head several times in disapproval before we got to the binary sunset, the film lost me and I was completely out of the movie by the end.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,617
    Luke is one of THE iconic movie characters of the post war era. If you can't create a dramatic, emotional and gripping death scene with Luke, then there is little hope. It was such a wasted opportunity. Hamill gave it 100% but he could not save the situation.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Honestly I didn't feel too much emotion when Han bit it in TFA either. I wondered why at the time and I think it's just the way Disney manages these scenes. There isn't much follow through. Just a moment of emotion by everyone and then it's back to business. I think there is a method to the madness because these films are targeted at kids as much as adults and they likely didn't want the emotion to become overwhelming. I'm ok with it actually. Those who connected to the character over the years will feel something more, whereas newbies won't.

    Contrast the manner in which Disney handles it with the almost overbearing emotion seeping out of the prequels, and particularly the end of ROTS. It's night and day.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,230
    @bondjames

    I was more emotional during Han's death mainly because I couldn't believe that they actually did it - even though I knew that it was a condition of Ford's return.

    What enhanced it - despite Driver's meh performance in that scene - was that up until that point Han had been just like his old self. There was a sense of warm familiarity with him that fed into that climax and heightened the drama just enough for it to work. As you rightly said, longtime fans will feel it more than the newbies will.

    With Luke, I wasn't quite sure who I was watching and by the end I gave up trying to figure it out. When Yoda showed up, I thought that the film was going to give us Luke Skywalker - but even in his "redemption", he still didn't feel like the guy he was.

    That's why the "let the past die" motif throughout didn't ring true, and unfortunately the whole film is built around it.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,617
    @bondjames "because these films are targeted at kids as much as adults and they likely didn't want the emotion to become overwhelming. " You mean like in The Lion King or Bambi?

    Movies are built on emotion. It's just bad direction/writing rather than Disney being clever. Chewy should have been at Han's side during that death scene (more emotion in TESB when Han is molded in carbonite. Luke should have died (if at all) in the arms of his sister. Not on his own falling off a rock:



  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2018 Posts: 23,883
    You make good points @CraigMooreOHMSS.

    I'm a bit of a Johnny-come-lately fan of the SW universe (I only really got into it after the prequels were released) and so Han/Luke are just like any other characters to me. I can appreciate how important they are to hardcore fans of the series.

    Additionally, I connected with the new characters in TFA (I realize many didn't) and that may be another reason why Han's death didn't affect me so much. However, as I mentioned, the film moves on very quickly from that scene into more action and doesn't dwell on it. They almost forget it afterwards and give us the positive emotional payoff of Luke's reappearance shortly thereafter, which eclipses Han's death imho.

    I see your point about Han being portrayed in a familiar fashion in TFA though, and how that made his sudden death more impactful as a result. The actual scene was reasonably tense as well, in contrast to the manner in which Luke just slumped down and disappeared in TLJ. Honestly when I saw it my first thoughts were that he's going to be back in SW9 (I almost rationalized that this was why it wasn't built up so much). His arc doesn't appear finished to me.
    ---

    @patb, Lion King and Bambi are prime examples of what I'm talking about. I find those films somewhat overwhelming at key points, and I recall my nephew in particular being quite upset during the latter film a few years back.

    I just think that Disney are trying to create more rewatchability with these films by keeping the emotion in check at key moments. It seems intentional to me, given I've noticed it in two films now.
  • patbpatb
    edited January 2018 Posts: 4,617
    @bondjames just because you notice something in a movie does not make it intentional. I think you are giving them too much credit Lets throw in Vader's death. Classic redemption scene, death in the arms of his son, really touching. Nothing in the new movies to touch that. Disney want to make money and, if they could, they would make movies of equal quality to the three originals. IMHO, if a main character is going to die, then lets have some drama. Upsetting kids is the type of experience that will stay with them forever and make them life long fans. The wonder of the movies.



  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2018 Posts: 23,883
    @patb, I get your point about Vader, but that was the last film in the original series. Let's see what they come up with for SW9. If history is any guide, that's where the waterworks really starts flowing (eg. ROTS, as per my previous post). It doesn't make sense to keep heaping that kind of drama on in each film.

    Remember Ben Kenobi's demise in SW (EDIT: or even Qui-Gon Jinn's demise in TPM)? They didn't dwell on that too much either.

    As I said, I don't think Luke's arc is complete yet. If it is, then I agree that it hasn't been handled well.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,361
    I have since appreciated TFA more though when I watched it for the first time in the cinema with my brother and nephew it fell flat for all of us until Hans death. Hans death actually woke me up and I thought it was a good scene and after that the rest of the film had a good pace and feel to it for me.
  • patbpatb
    edited January 2018 Posts: 4,617
    Interesting stuff. Each movie still has to be a good experience on it's own. If Luke does come back, then it tends to undermine whatever sacrifice we did see. Having a poor death scene on the basis that he's coming back anyway makes little sense to me (and many many fans).
    Re Ben's death, firstly, unlike Luke, he was actually there. He cared enough to travel to where the action was. Secondly, the concept of sacrifice is there to see as he is in the thick of it. Can anyone seriously suggest that the scene would have been better if he was "force projecting" and he was actually still at home?

    http://whatculture.com/film/10-greatest-ever-noble-sacrifices-in-film

    The first reference is Big Hero6 (Disney), wow, the water works are in full flow there. Re the nobility factor, again, this is lacking with Luke.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @patb, I don't understand why his physically being there vs. being projected there makes any difference. The fact that he slumps over and disappears after doing that indicates that he did in fact make a sacrifice. Sure, it was different to Obi Wan on Qui-Gon, but that's part of the point imho. It's not the same sort of sacrifice, if it even was that. Like I said, let's see how JJ wraps this up. I don't think it will be in the way we are all expecting at this moment.

    PS: As I've mentioned before, I think the key point of that whole scene is to take it full circle. Luke saves the Rebels without actually fighting Ren. similar to how he saved his father by turning off his saber in ROTJ. In that respect, it was true to the character.
  • patbpatb
    edited January 2018 Posts: 4,617
    Being physically in danger (and the commitment to put yourself into that situation) is something that all of the audience (including kids) can instantly have empathy with. Using the force to project yourself into a situation is something literally alien to the audeince so there is no way to engross the audeince as we cant share his situation. We find it impossible to empathise.

    It also undermines the skill and determintion of Kylo. He was robbed of a potentially great battle scene. Whatever he did made no difference to the outcome, He was a bystander,waving his lightsabre around at thin air.

    It also takes away the possibility of injury during the fight (a key trope within so many classic movies). When Luke lost his hand, boy was that dramatic. We can all empathise.

    It also has the knock on effect that, in future, every time we see someone in a lightsabre fight, we'll be thinking "are they actually there or force projecting?", or if a character is in a race against time to get somewhere , why not just force project instead?

    The whole force projection thing is just not required IMHO and raises more questions than adds to the movie.

    PS bad language but very funny,

  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited January 2018 Posts: 25,361


    Rey running with Sabre should have been kept in.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,361
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,438
    I never gave my thoughts when it came out, but I like this film quite a bit. There are many problems, but it feels like a real vision, where good is mixed with the bad instead of the bland but watchable slop Hollywood Churns out in the last decades. This felt like Star Wars was finally being pushed into new territory, which was really exciting. I think the Reylo relationship is becoming the central focus, like Luke and Vader became the central focus of the OT. It's interesting because both represent a different side of the force, and in coming together they could finally represent balance. Even in RotJ there was never balance, because the light won over the dark. Luke's arc is really compelling because he learned that victory wasn't the ultimate goal, and in this movie he came to learn neither was defeat, because by giving up he only let the dark manifest again. I loved the Reylo relationship, because it feels like it was set up from the start to parrelell and contrast in interesting ways. Rey is constantly looking for figures to look up to and a sense of belonging, and Kylo wants to "kill the past" and forge his own path. Their connection is beyond just the force, I feel they connect on a human level. That's what Star Wars is about, in the end.

    In terms of negatives, I think the worst aspect of this movie was the action. I didn't like the slow-mo at all, especially during the throne room fight.

    The plot is quite jumbled, with not really a clear structure, but I think this film is better appreciated for its themes and arcs rather than its storytelling, which sets it apart from the other entries.

    7/10
  • SharkBaitSharkBait
    Posts: 2,107
    I liked TLJ, but it's the first Star Wars film, that I am not in any kind of hurry to own on bluray/digital release.

    I remember the movie being good. Minus all that middle stuff with Finn and Rose and some of the humor.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    It was so jarring to me to have so much comedy and more light-hearted moments throughout - it felt way overdone. I'm all for a bit of humor and relaxation in the midst of action sequences and peril, but it was rather extreme, I felt.

    I knew it wasn't going to get any better when I saw Leia doing a Mary Poppins impression out in space. I couldn't help but bark out some laughter at that bit.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    I truly can't wait for the movie to be released on physical format now, as I really don't remember it being the joke-a-minute comedy movie I've seen it criticised as. I remember it being like the rest of the franchise, with the comedy used in key moments.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    Agent007391 wrote: »
    I truly can't wait for the movie to be released on physical format now, as I really don't remember it being the joke-a-minute comedy movie I've seen it criticised as. I remember it being like the rest of the franchise, with the comedy used in key moments.

    It could be, and it's simply a result of me not having watched an installment in quite some time, but off the top of my head I can't remember any of them trying to be as humorous as this one was. Having said that, as I previously said, I don't mind the humor being used in the right moments. It just felt overdone.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,514
    I think critics overrate TLJ, and audiences underrate it. For me it’s like a 7.5/10; a really decent SW flick, but by no means the best or even as good as any of the originals. Yet way better than the first two prequels and for me both TFA and RO. It ranks at the middle on my list. Good not great. Flawed but fun.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,438
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I think critics overrate TLJ, and audiences underrate it. For me it’s like a 7.5/10; a really decent SW flick, but by no means the best or even as good as any of the originals. Yet way better than the first two prequels and for me both TFA and RO. It ranks at the middle on my list. Good not great. Flawed but fun.

    I'd agree with that. Star Wars fans felt there wasn't enough fan service in it, like Luke having a big light saber fight against 50 opponents or something.

    I think this film gives us something new, like the originals gave us something new, but on balance this has many more tonal and structural flaws than those.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Only kids crave for all these lightsabre fights and battleships.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,357
    It would have been cool to see Luke bring down an AT-AT with the force like in Dark Empire. :D
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,592
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Only kids crave for all these lightsabre fights and battleships.
    Not true.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited March 2018 Posts: 25,361


    Edited: Rewatched the original scene forgot how it played out, not a bad fan made edit.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,438
    I think many were annoyed that Luke died. There is a desire to treat these characters reverentially, but in the universe of the movie, there is nothing to say Luke must survive and have a big battle. There's fan service, not story. Just like in the prequels Yoda was jumping off the walls to satisfy fanboys that wanted to see him in combat. I can appreciate that not all the decisions in TLJ came off, and it is dericisive by nature. But i'd rather celebrate that, than deride it, personally. I'm sick of franchise movies that play it safe, and end up watchable but bland as a result. TLJ has issues, but there is a lot to like also, so it comes down to personal taste whether the good outshines the bad.
  • SharkBaitSharkBait
    edited March 2018 Posts: 2,107
    I was surprised that
    Leia lived at the end of the movie, instead of Luke.

    Though I didn't mind of Luke's big sacrifice. They can always Force ghost him in the next one.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,514
    I thought the way they handled Luke’s death was great. It wasn’t a traditional sacrificial death, and to see him fade away like Ben Kenobi was pretty neat. I liked it.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,617
    Iconic characters need iconic death scenes - Wrath of Khan QED. and Skyfall actually

    Still angry with Last Jedi - horrible, just horrible
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    patb wrote: »
    Iconic characters need iconic death scenes - Wrath of Khan QED. and Skyfall actually

    Still angry with Last Jedi - horrible, just horrible

    Nothing wrong with Luke’s death. Han’s was ten times worse.
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