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Robert Brown's M - The same M as Bernard Lee or a promoted Admiral Hargreaves ?

barryt007barryt007
edited September 2011 in Bond Movies Posts: 19,339
Robert Brown,who played M as we all know for 4 Bond films,was also Admiral Hargreaves in TSWLM.

Do you then see M in OP,AVTAK,TLD,LTK as the same M (ie Bernard Lee's ) continuing,or do you see him as a promoted Admiral Hargreaves,to add consistancy to the role ?
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Comments

  • Risico007Risico007
    Posts: 9,858
    I see him as Admiral Hargreaves
  • PanchitoPistolesPanchitoPistoles 2.0
    Posts: 4,619
    The way I see it, there were three Ms so far:

    -the first M (1962-1989): played by Bernard Lee and Robert Brown
    -the second M (1995-2002) played by Judi Dench
    -the third M (2006-) played by Judi Dench
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    I always though Brown and Lee played 2 different M's.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,356
    I'd say different people, yes though I don't think it really matters that much in the context of the films.
  • Artemis81Artemis81 In Christmas Land
    Posts: 543
    I want to say different people. I just wish they would have clarified it a bit better in the films. I also wonder why Robert Brown never got the "Robert Brown as M" treatment in the title sequence like the other two.
  • H007MERH007MER
    Posts: 136
    I think I always assumed they played the same M but I think I prefer the idea that Hargreaves got promoted.
  • ChevronChevron Northern Ireland
    edited September 2011 Posts: 370
    Given that some Bond actors have played multiple characters (eg Walter Gotell played Gogol but was also a different character in FRWL) I've always thought that Robert Brown was cast as different characters.

    However I really like the idea that his admiral character becomes M so I'll choose to believe that!
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    Since they never specifically spelled it out otherwise onscreen, I go by the assumption that Robert Brown was playing Admiral Sir Miles Messervy(the M Bernard Lee played) just as Connery, Lazenby, Moore and Dalton were all playing the same Bond.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    all I know is that Brown was a lame M or whatever you want to classify him in his appearances from OP to LTK.

    Of course going to fill Bernard Lee's shoes was going to be a tall order for anyone but the next guy really did disappoint, he was like an equivalent of Caroline Bliss's Moneypenny wherein you never really noticed he was on screen and just seemed resigned to background space, what I mean is the character/s just never made an impact (maybe they weren't supposed to), but all said, one or two pieces of the 007 franchise jigsaw, that if went missing, you wouldn't really miss them
  • SharkBaitSharkBait
    edited September 2011 Posts: 2,107
    I've always thought it was meant that he was playing Sir Miles Messervy, same as Bernard Lee.

    But I'd like to think he was Admiral Hargreaves from TSWLM. But it makes no difference who he was. Not really.

    And Judi Dench playing two different M's. Didn't someone, if not she herself, say around the time CR was in the making, that she was going to play a different character? Different M.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    all I know is that Brown was a lame M
    I couldn't disagree more. I actually prefer Brown to Lee.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    You must be in the minority :-??
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,256
    In my opinion, Lee's M got replaced by Brown's M after FYEO. However, as per usual we're assuming continuity while the films themselves value no such thing. In those days, every Bond film required Q, MP and M. Their stories never float beyond the boundaries of one film. GE was the first film in a very long time to reference an M from Bond's past.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited September 2011 Posts: 13,999
    Well I preferred Brown to Lee too. And i've always just accepted that Brown wasn't Meservy, but Admiral Hargreaves, a different M alltogether.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    Me too, though I must admid I never gave it much thought. If he's actualy Heargraves, they ought to have done the same with Monneypenny, just given her a different name. That's the main problem, isn't it? M could be a code name, like 007, given to anyone. For Q the same (as they showed in DAD). Moneypenny is just a name.

    And indeed @Baltimore_007, I'm firmly in the Bernard Lee camp. Never thought of Brown as a good M.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    Each to their own and all but I did question those that believed Brown a better M than Lee, it's like favoring plain nachos over cheese variety. :-?
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    I consider Brown's M to be Admiral Hargreaves promoted to the rank of M after Bernard Lee's M either dies or retires, since FYEO simply says that M is "on leave". Then of course, maybe after the fall of Communism, Brown decided his services weren't of great demand and wanted to retire, and the role then was passed on to Judi Dench, who was waiting for the offer. Just a thought!
  • 007manny007manny
    Posts: 100
    ive always thought there were three ms nothing less nothing more
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    I consider Brown's M to be Admiral Hargreaves promoted to the rank of M after Bernard Lee's M either dies or retires, since FYEO simply says that M is "on leave". Then of course, maybe after the fall of Communism, Brown decided his services weren't of great demand and wanted to retire, and the role then was passed on to Judi Dench, who was waiting for the offer. Just a thought!
    At least Bond comments on Dench's ' predecessor' on Goldeneye. So there's at least some certainty that M is used as a title.

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    I consider Brown's M to be Admiral Hargreaves promoted to the rank of M after Bernard Lee's M either dies or retires, since FYEO simply says that M is "on leave". Then of course, maybe after the fall of Communism, Brown decided his services weren't of great demand and wanted to retire, and the role then was passed on to Judi Dench, who was waiting for the offer. Just a thought!
    I agree with this.
  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986
    I consider Brown's M to be Admiral Hargreaves promoted to the rank of M after Bernard Lee's M either dies or retires, since FYEO simply says that M is "on leave". Then of course, maybe after the fall of Communism, Brown decided his services weren't of great demand and wanted to retire, and the role then was passed on to Judi Dench, who was waiting for the offer. Just a thought!
    I agree with this.
    Same here, Brown's M to me was clearly a different person than Lee's M, not sure if he was Hargreaves but I'd tend to believe he was just for continuity's sake.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    ive always thought there were three ms nothing less nothing more
    You may be thinking of 1981s For Your Eyes Only when M was not included in the film and instead was covered by the M16 Chief of Staff who gave Bond his orders

    Usual M Bernard Lee was unable to continue his role and unfortunately passed away the same year so M was not featured but was brought back for Octopussy two years later with Robert Brown in the role



  • SharkBaitSharkBait
    Posts: 2,107
    >

    You may be thinking of 1981s For Your Eyes Only when M was not included in the film and instead was covered by the M16 Chief of Staff who gave Bond his orders



    That got me thinking. Who was the best Tanner? The one in FYEO, Tanner in Goldeneye and TWINE, or Tanner in Quantum of Solace and the subsequent videogames?

    I'd say Michael Kitchen. Tanner in FYEO was too much of a smug. Haven't seen that much of Tanner in the Craig era. But he doesn't seem a friend. Kitchen seemed like the only Tanner who could also be a friend of Bond's.

  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    I like the Tanner from the Brosnan era, FYEO, it's hardly worth a mention we saw so little of the character/actor, haven't seen QOS for years and forgotten some of what went on so can't really comment on the man involved, I think it's a fairly unanimous decision for me that Kitchen is a clear winner, he was most featured in any event.
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    To answer the Bill Tanner question, definitely the one from TMWTGG who barely says a word! Hahaha. Just kidding. I'm not even sure why he was included if he wasn't going to have a role in the plot. I really like Tanner from GE and TWINE; you felt like he was a real friend to 007, not like the one from FYEO, who was more of a superior, and not like QoS, who was just M's aid.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,169
    Just going back to Robert Browns M, I neither think he is a continuation of the Miles Messervy character created by Bernard Lee. Nor do I see him as Admiral Hargreaves, the character Brown played in TSWLM. For me he his merely Messervy's successor. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter as this is all hypothetical. There is nothing to suggest Brown is Messervy or Hargreaves.
    He's just M. And a damn good one I always thought.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    It was never really revealed what actual capacity Browns character was from 1983 onwards, people just accepted him as the new M after Bernard Lee (was unable to continue)

    If Brown was really Adm. Hargreaves in later pictures it was suggested he was now a rear admiral, having been in a higher position in previous appearances. (A Vice Admiral at the time of The Spy Who Loved Me)

    Brown was a killjoy for any Moore antics and certainly didn't appreciate any time wasters

    A bit 'too' serious perhaps





  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited September 2011 Posts: 28,694
    The theory that each M is separate could very well be true. One important piece of evidence is the painting of Bernard Lee(his M) hanging in the MI6 Headquarters in Scotland.
    image

    So either it is a nice easter egg, or a hint that Dench's M is another M apart from the others. Since Lee passed on clear back in 81', EON had many opportunities to give him an special shout out. I dunno. :-??
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,723
    @0Brady you should post the link to that picture - it's a copyrighted image.
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    Assuming that Bernard Lee's M actually died in the Bond world, then I would go to say that the British Intelligence community looked for the most qualified, higher-ranking official that would be worthy of taking up the M mantle, in which case, they might have selected Hargreaves for the position.
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