Robert Brown's M - The same M as Bernard Lee or a promoted Admiral Hargreaves ?

24

Comments

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I always favored the idea Brown's M being a promoted Admiral Hargreaves. After Moonraker, he retires. (Goes on leave as mentioned in FYEO.) To be replaced by Admiral Hargreaves in Octopussy.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Is Browns M ever referred to by his letter? Judi Dench is as is Bernard Lee.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    I was going to post "why isn't anyone in this thread mentioning Mallory?", then I looked at the date of the thread.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited March 2014 Posts: 45,489
    Matt007 wrote:
    Is Browns M ever referred to by his letter? Judi Dench is as is Bernard Lee.

    I think he is, but I could be wrong. He would be called H if he were Hargreaves.
  • Posts: 19,339
    He is mentioned as M,by Bond,in FRWL..."Once when i was with M in Tokyo,we had an interesting experience..."

    When they are playing the tape of the interview Bond did with Tanya in Istanbul via the camera he held,on the tour boat.
  • Posts: 4,409
    To be honest I think we are putting more thought into it than any of the filmmakers behind those movies ever did.

    It's a nice idea that the original M was played by Bernard Lee and when he died a new head of Mi6 was appointed. It may also make sense that Admiral Hargreaves would get appointed to that postion.

    The truth however is that no attempt is made to explain the new M in OP and therefore we must presume, considering both men were similar ages and had comparable looks and stature, that Brown's M is still Messervy. The truth is that continuity is so flimsy from film to film it hardly matters.

    But...I think once Lee died and the part needed recasting the producers missed a great dramatic opportunity to explore Bond's relationship with a new M. This is something that NSNA had to to in 1983, and we get a younger more bureaucratic M played by Edward Fox (who really isn't keen on 007 or his antics). Instead the producers just relied on formula and it's the reason why those late Roger Moore films are the most disappointing of the series. Fox should have played M in the EON series.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited March 2014 Posts: 45,489
    He is at least named as M in the main title sequences, is he not? That means Messervy, certainly not Hargreaves. No big deal, really. I have never lost sleep over it.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    He is at least named as M in the main title sequences, is he not? That means Messervy, certainly not Hargreaves. No big deal, really. I have never lost sleep over it.
    Not necessarily. In the real MI6 the head was known as C. And yes, it was because of his name. He was known only as C. as a codename, as a preventative measure that none would know his real name. James Bond is no code name (that's is 00 number) but M. is. AFAK later heads of MI6 were known also as C. to keep the tradition going. The same goes for M. in the Bond series. however they obscure this by choosing new character names which all start with an M.
    Hargreaves being the only exception. In the light of this I prefer the thought that it was a promoted Hargreaves being the new M.
    Also, in military organisations, it's quite normal to change heads once every 3 to 5 years. Obviously that would be too much for the Bond series but it's likely that Bond would have had several bosses after a few years.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    But...I think once Lee died and the part needed recasting the producers missed a great dramatic opportunity to explore Bond's relationship with a new M. This is something that NSNA had to to in 1983, and we get a younger more bureaucratic M played by Edward Fox (who really isn't keen on 007 or his antics). Instead the producers just relied on formula and it's the reason why those late Roger Moore films are the most disappointing of the series. Fox should have played M in the EON series.
    I can see where you're coming from in regards to a new M but I couldn't disagree with you more about Fox. I didn't find him interesting at all.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    EdwArd Fox was dreadful, worst M to date. Nice to think Brown was Hargreaves promoted to head of Mi6 but as some have already said I don't think the series bothered with continuity back then, it seems only the current era does and as we've seen it's not that strict even there.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Fox was woeful,definately a 'cheque is in the post' performance.

    I also always think of Hargreaves as M,its a good flowing transformation which works,even if it wasnt meant to !!
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    however they obscure this by choosing new character names which all start with an M.
    Hargreaves being the only exception. In the light of this I prefer the thought that it was a promoted Hargreaves being the new M.

    I don't know where this comes from, but Wikipedia used to list Hargreaves first name as being Marion, hence the M.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 19,339
    From WIKI :


    M (Admiral Hargreaves)


    After Lee's death in 1981, the producers hired actor Robert Brown to play M in Octopussy. Brown had previously played Admiral Hargreaves, flag officer of submarines, in the 1977 film, The Spy Who Loved Me. Bond scholars Steven Jay Rubin, John Cork, and Collin Stutz all consider Admiral Hargreaves would have been promoted to the role of M, rather than Brown playing a different character as M.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    barryt007 wrote:
    From WIKI :


    M (Admiral Hargreaves)


    After Lee's death in 1981, the producers hired actor Robert Brown to play M in Octopussy. Brown had previously played Admiral Hargreaves, flag officer of submarines, in the 1977 film, The Spy Who Loved Me. Bond scholars Steven Jay Rubin, John Cork, and Collin Stutz all consider Admiral Hargreaves would have been promoted to the role of M, rather than Brown playing a different character as M.

    That's what it says now. It used to list Robert Brown's M as Marion Hargreaves, and I don't know where the hell that came from.
  • Posts: 15,124
    I always assumed they were the same character, the same M Robert Brown was not the first actor playing different characters in the franchise.
  • Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote:
    From WIKI :


    M (Admiral Hargreaves)


    After Lee's death in 1981, the producers hired actor Robert Brown to play M in Octopussy. Brown had previously played Admiral Hargreaves, flag officer of submarines, in the 1977 film, The Spy Who Loved Me. Bond scholars Steven Jay Rubin, John Cork, and Collin Stutz all consider Admiral Hargreaves would have been promoted to the role of M, rather than Brown playing a different character as M.

    That's what it says now. It used to list Robert Brown's M as Marion Hargreaves, and I don't know where the hell that came from.

    That is weird,well at least they have adjusted it now !!

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I also believe that Morzeny infiltrated SPECTRE and became head of the KGB after surviving the fire.

    "Dikko Henderson" was the real Blofeld. Pleasence and Savalas were decoys.

    Brad Whitaker s death was staged, like that of Pushkin. He was actually a CIA agent.

    And Shane Rimmer, what do you say about a man like that?
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 1,009
    Hargreaves or not, to start for I think Brown's M is another person, and not Sir Miles Messerby. Brown's M is extremely strict, not that father-like figure to his agents, distant, almost ruthless, somewhat of a bureaucrat... A far more realistic M than Lee, but far less lovable.

    And to answer the main question here, yes, I go with the Hargreaves theory, too. In TSWLM he shows himself as quite a rude man who happens to be an Admiral like Sir Miles. Just like his M.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    You actually believe Brosnan was Bond too, then?
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 15,124
    There is something that goes against the M is Hargreaves and not Messervy theory: at no point in the movies is it said that Brown's M is the new M, a different M than before. Or that he was Hargreaves.
  • Posts: 2,341
    I originally thought he was the same M (they change Bond actors, why not M?)

    After seeing Dench it dawned on me that Mi6 would replace M eventually. I thought that maybe Hargreaves would take the post and start planning his retirement. Finally being replaced by Dench. However this theory does not stand up to close scrutiny because of the replacement of Bonds.

    We should not try to overthink this.
  • I think Skyfall put forward the idea that M can be replaced, which is exactly what happened in between Bernard Lee and Robert Brown.

    The only thing that bothers me is that Brown's character - Hargreaves - does not end in M, where as Messervy, Mallory and Dench's character all shared the M in their last name. So why wasn't Brown's character called H or something?
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    I think Skyfall put forward the idea that M can be replaced, which is exactly what happened in between Bernard Lee and Robert Brown.

    The only thing that bothers me is that Brown's character - Hargreaves - does not end in M, where as Messervy, Mallory and Dench's character all shared the M in their last name. So why wasn't Brown's character called H or something?

    Well, don't real heads of the MI6 still use "C" even if their name doesn't start with C, all because of Sir Mansfield Smith-Cumming?
  • Posts: 825
    Well Robert Brown should had his own M character. When M was in For your eyes only Bill Tanner fill in at that time when M was in leave. First actor James Viller who was in Roger Moores TV series The Saint Robert Brown should had been in introduce as the new in Octopussy. I know he,Barnard Lee including Lois Maxwell all came in Roger Moore TV series The Saint & The Persuaders. I not including the unofficial Edward Fox.
  • Posts: 1,092
    Yes, I think he got promoted. I think that's pretty cool.
  • Posts: 15,124
    But there is no mention he got promoted, or that they are two different people.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Its all up to the individual,nothing was ever concrete,so just interpret it how you seem fit.
  • Posts: 15,124
    barryt007 wrote:
    Its all up to the individual,nothing was ever concrete,so just interpret it how you seem fit.

    Well, the default position would be one of skepticism, the people assessing Robert Brown is Admiral Hargreave have the burden of proof. The only one we have is that he was played by the same actor, but that is very thin, as other actors played different roles in the franchise before.
  • The default position would be agnosticism: there is not enough evidence to confirm that they are the same or different. Given the series's lack of continuity, we are free to make up our own theories on these and other such matters (the timeline, multiple Bonds, reviled though it may be, and so on).

    I personally think that he's a promoted Admiral Hargreaves, but it really doesn't matter.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I don't think that Brown as M was meant to be a promoted Hargreaves. But it's fun to think that he was. Like George Baker being Sir Hillary Bray to become the Admiral in SPY.
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