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Agnosticism is about knowledge, not belief/disbelief. I do not think Brown's M is Hargreaves no more than I think Morenzy changed his name to Gogol or that Andrea Anders and Octopussy are one and the same. Until we have enough evidence (which after such a long time would be a word for the production), then I can safely assume he was not.
But Miles Messervy was also an admiral.
"A final important cast return was Robert Brown. Playing Admiral Hargreaves in The Spy Who Loved Me (1977), by the time of Octopussy his character had become M and he would continue in the role until The Living Daylights."
(Not to be taken as confirmation, as the car collection and magazines have been known to get things wrong - example above being that this character was also in LTK. Worth documenting here anyway.)
Seems unlikely to me; I would say they’re different characters and Brown is playing Messervy. Even getting two Naval Admirals in a row to command MI6 seems a bit unlikely.
Obviously you can argue what the filmmakers' intentions were at the time, but they've clearly decided in retrospect that they were different characters.
Producer or someone else:
"Say, we need another M."
Other Producer or someone else:
"You're right. Why not Robert?"
Producer or someone else:
"Sure. Let's see if he is available."
Here's what's happening decades later:
Fan 1:
"I've got a theory on who he is."
Fan 2:
"I've got a different theory."
...
;-)
I think there's a lot in the Bond movies that you kind of have to take as not being part of any kind of continuity, because you could also say that those paintings prove that Bond had lots of different faces and is at least 90 years old! :)
Plus, I think isn't Lee's portrait not visible in NTTD? So in that film, as in Octopussy, Messervy is being played by Brown. In TWINE, he was played by Lee :)
As for myself, I always took Brown's M to be Hargreaves. I don't think that he would have had to be demoted from Rear Admiral to Vice Admiral (or was it vice versa?), since being head of MI6 is doubtless not just a career position as usual, but something outside of normal military service and, no doubt, a special honour to get this job. Compare that to CIA chiefs in the U.S. who, if I remember correctly, included former cabinet secretaries and four-star generals.
During most of SF, Gareth Mallory was chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, and as such at least functionally the superior of M. He makes that quite clear when telling her she should decide to retire or else be forced to. Yet he is taking her job after her death, consequently being subjected to a new ISC chairperson as his own superior. A demotion?
No, I think that Hargreaves might have kept his naval rank (one rung higher than Messervy's), as well as his perks, and still become Sir Miles' successor without losing the slightest bit of face.
And soon there's another theory that might show up: was Judi Dench's the same M, but after a sex change?
I'm not sure I'm following your logic: we can see that he hasn't kept his Naval rank if we accept that it's Hargreaves in TLD- he's been demoted in the Navy since TSWLM. It wouldn't be much of a special honour if you have to accept a demotion.
It would be like if Bond had been a Captain when he served in the Navy but had been struck back down to Commander upon joining MI6. I don't see any reason for that to happen. As Dimi says, they just got someone else to play Messervy.
There's no evidence for this, it's just that you see it that way. But that doesn't make it factual. Lee's M was an Admiral called Miles Messervy, Brown's M was an Admiral, but we never learn his name. The fact that he played Admiral Hargraves in TSWLM doesn't automatically mean that Brown's M is Hargraves, solely because they're both Admirals.
Is the Ed Bishop radar operator in YOLT, the same character as Klaus Hergersheimer in DAF?
Is Shane Rimmer's character in YOLT the same as Commander Carter in TSWLM?
Did Andrea Anders return from the dead to become Octopussy?
Until EON give an answer too such a question, it remains up in the air, and at the end of the day can be interpreted anyway you want. There's no right or wrong answer.
Personally, I think Brown is not Hargraves, but a successor to Messervy.
I wasn't aware - or rather, I forgot - that M is seen in uniform in TLD. But then, I couldn't have identified his insignia, anyway.
But even so, https://jamesbond.fandom.com/wiki/M_(Robert_Brown) speculates:
"Had Admiral Hargreaves indeed ascended to command MI6, it was implied he had suffered some adversity which resulted in his demotion, or financial law established M's renumeration [sic] at a level less than that of a 3-star admiral, and as such Hargreaves had to accept the pay and priviledges [sic] of the lesser rank."
Plus, of course, the rear admiral uniform in TLD could have simply been a goof. Either way, it's an interesting discussion.
That said I tend to view them as different characters because they come off as different. That said I don't think I ever gave this much thought....
And that's one of the most logical answers on here.
It's fun to discuss, but I don't care enough at the end of the day. ;)
I don't see how. It's been established that different people have held the 'M' position in the universe of the film. It's never been implied that Bond has changed his appearance and that the other characters are aware of it.
It just seems strange to me that someone made the conscious decision to use Brown's portrait instead of Lee's, despite the latter being the more recognisable actor.
I’m sure I remember seeing Lee’s portrait in a behind-the-scenes video, but I may be misremembering.
Gosh, I mean, okay; but that seems like an awful lot of contrivance to explain it when the simpler one is that they're not the same guy! :D
The idea that the head of MI6 has to be a pipe-smoking Naval Admiral so they'd get two in in a row is a bit odd too: around that time they were all men who had started in the Army rather than the Royal Navy, but had joined SIS fairly early in their careers.
I tend to think that as it matches Lee's M's rank there's a decent chance it was intentional, but maybe yeah.
Well because if Lee's M existed in CraigBond's world, that could mean that Connery's Bond existed in that world too, because we saw him talking to him :D
So you know, continuity is a very loose thing in the Bond films which you kind of have to pick and choose from.
Yes I think Lee's one from TWINE was there on the set, but I'm pretty sure it didn't appear in the film. I think they gave Brown a portrait just because the other two had been given some portrait love and got short shrift in TWINE, so he deserved one too.
Why was there only one M portrait in TWINE? Could it because there was only one previous M? ;)
We know that Manfield M and Messervy M were different people as we have seen them together in NTTD and they have different names(!), but we haven't seen Brown and Lee's ones together. Also, we don't know for sure that Brosnan's Dench M was Craig's Mansfield M either! She certainly has a different dress sense and has knocked the drinking problem :D
Yeah it's all trivia: that's what this forum is for! :)
There's not much point in anyone pointing out that it doesn't matter- none of this does! :D
My take on it is the quite simple proposition that Robert Brown's M is merely meant to be a continuation of the character originally played by Bernard Lee. I know there is also the possibility that Brown's M is meant to be Admiral Hargreaves from TSWLM but there is no real evidence to suggest that this is the case. If this was the screenwriters' intention I'm sure that for the avoidance of doubt they'd have had the character named as Admiral Hargreaves in the Octopussy script. As they elected not to do this I think we have to presume that it is either a continuation of the old original Fleming created M first played by Lee or, alternatively, an entirely new character as M altogether. As others have noted, actors have played two or more roles before in the Bond film series and we don't automatically presume they're meant to be the same character. I suppose an anonymous cypher of a name like M rather lends itself to issues of identity. The lack of a mention of "Sir Miles" during Brown's portrayal of M is of course another complicating factor. I myself still have a preference for the argument that he is Lee's M continued under a new actor. This theory has at least some pieces of evidence to back it up - both Ms are admirals, both smoke a pipe and use Swan Vestas to light it (as @QBranch notes above), both are curmudgeons at times but both also have a respect and admiration for Bond as their best agent and so on.
More recently, I suppose there is the matter of the Brown M's portrait appearing in NTTD although perhaps that could be explained away as Brown getting his recognition after Lee's M got a portrait in TWINE. However, as we know, Lee's M portrait was on the same set but we just didn't see it on screen. This factor does muddy the waters a little but I suppose the fact that the first two Ms obviously looked like different people has to be considered too and maybe the Bond producers wanted to pay tribute to Brown's slightly overlooked contribution to the series as the M of the 1983-1989 Bond films. If Lee's portrait had been included in the film as well that would've definitely complicated matters further, in what is already a pretty complex issue within Bondology.
There's only one James Bond, it doesn't matter who's playing him, or what universe we're in.
If that's true then that's enough for me to conclude that they're different people. Out of interest, would you have concluded the same if Lee's portrait was visible in the film?
Is it that different? She wears skirts less. Regardless I think two different actors is a stronger case for different characters than a slightly modified dress sense and obvious crackdowns on drinking in the workplace.
Sure, but as I say, you're having to pick and choose there and it's your own personal choice there's only one Bond. What I'm saying is, if you're taking the portraits as evidence of one thing, they can also be taken as proof of Bond being 90 years old if someone wanted them to be. Everyone is right as there's proof for just about anything!
Probably not, but then as I say above, I don't really see their portraits as much proof of anything really as them being there at all tends to mess the continuity up (apart from Dench's M of course).
She's a lot vampier in CR; in the Brosnans she stuck to very formal suits with the occasional pashmina over the shoulder, but suddenly in CR she's in plunging necklines etc. It's a reboot of course so it is a different version of M who never experienced the events of the previous movies: it's quite possible she has a different name too (before anyone says it, she's not Mawdsley- that was Benson's inventions for the books and he actually never used it in the novelisations he did of the movies).
With the portraits at MI6 I initially thought well, heck, that indicates there's a Hargreaves version of M.
But reconsidering it now, that actually doesn't discount my original inclination. So I'm good.
There's no part of me that remotely believes much thought or discussion was given as to whether he was playing Sir Miles Messervy or Admiral Hargreaves.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the earliest Hargreaves theory I recall was possibly in Ruben's Bond Encyclopedia from 1990.
Wouldn't he be called H if he were Hargreaves anyway? I always thought M was a randomly assigned letter I had no idea it stood for............................
:))
Nicely observed @ToTheRight
Bond: "Hargeaves."
Margreaves: "It's Margreaves. With an M."
Explains it all.
It seems that the main criteria for being a head of the British Secret Service is having a name beginning with the letter "M". One's CV is very much a secondary consideration.
"A descendant of Churchill, you say? Sorry, we can't give you the job. Mr. Mengele, please come in."