The Next American President Thread (2016)

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  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    TripAces wrote: »

    You forget an important thing here. Those people are not Republican. They are voting for 'Trumpism', they are 'Trumpites'. It's the same thing we saw in the UK during Brexit. Angry, poor, non-educated whites didn't vote for Cameron's Tories, they did vote for the anger that the UKIP verbalized so masterfully, and to a lesser extend the 'Johnsonites'. It's only because of the lack of a multi-party system that we fail to see how, especially, establishment parties on the right are eaten alive from the inside out.

    That's why for instance in my country, The Netherlands, having a multi-party system, the classic Conservative Parties (CDA, Christian Democrats and VVD, Conservative Liberals), have lost ground massively to Geert Wilders' PVV (Party Of Freedom). Especially the CDA was in The Netherlands the 'big one'. They delivered long-serving Prime Ministers and were the largest political force in The Netherlands for decades. But after 2006....CDA was eaten alive and is now only a marginal opposition party.

    Fair points, BUT...this article was written in 2014.
  • Posts: 315
    Again, Gustav..Arizona, Missouri and Georgia mean nothing to Trump or Hillary. They are small potatoes. Only 37 electoral votes. Florida, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Ohio represent a whopping 82 electoral votes. Why waste one nickel on the smaller states?
  • Why spend money on the smaller states? Because they have Senators, and Representatives...and a winning President brings along voters for their party on the down-ballot races as well. The Democrats are tasting a Congressional takeover as well as keeping the Presidency. That's just how disastrous Trump may be for the Republican party...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Disaster all around!
  • Posts: 1,631
    I don't think he'll be quite that disastrous for the Republicans. They'll lose ground, of course, thanks to the fact that the party nominated the most unfit candidate for president in history, but I don't see them losing both houses of congress. Losing one could be a possibility, but I just don't see both of them falling.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    As Brandon Lee said in Rapid Fire, "Don't BET on it." :))
  • The Senate is believed do-able, the House of Reps less so. Still, the turnover of one branch of Congress is nothing to sneeze at!
  • Posts: 1,631
    The Senate is believed do-able, the House of Reps less so. Still, the turnover of one branch of Congress is nothing to sneeze at!

    I'm actually OK with the Senate going back into Democratic hands. That will rid us of having to have Mitch McConnell in a position of power, which has done quite a bit of harm to the Republican party over the last few years. The quicker we can get him out of office, whether it be by a Republican primary challenger or through him being defeated by a Democrat in a general election, the better.
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 11,119
    FLeiter wrote: »
    Again, Gustav..Arizona, Missouri and Georgia mean nothing to Trump or Hillary. They are small potatoes. Only 37 electoral votes. Florida, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Ohio represent a whopping 82 electoral votes. Why waste one nickel on the smaller states?

    Ooowh I agree. But listen, I'm not saying that the Clinton campaign should now leave all the groundwork in Ohio, Pennsylvania, North-Carolina & Florida (Virginia too!). On the contrary! These are must-win states. But at this very moment the Clinton campaign is on the offense in all these states. And indeed, they need to stay on the offense.

    Especially Pennsylvania and Ohio could be seriously swinging towards Trump. The countryside in these states are full of angry blue-collar working-class men (they tend to to be white, less educated and older as well). So these states are pivotal for Clinton.

    Obviously, the Clinton campaign likes to carry all the states that Obama carried in 2012. And that's their ultimate goal. Albeit with a stronger focus on Ohio, Florida and Pennsylvania. So this is the electoral vote map they are aiming for:
    Ajmyy0A.jpg

    Because, if they move campaign resources out of Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida, then the electoral vote map might become less favorable for the Democrats. Then the electoral vote map would look like this and Trump wins, albeit narrowly. This is the Trump campaign's aim:
    lPBYWjl.jpg

    But, I am not suggesting to move Democratic campaign resources out of Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida (and North-Carolina, Virginia). No, on the contrary. That should be the main focus of the Clinton campaign. But all I suggest is to set up a secondary, less dominant, but still realistic campaign groundwork effort in these states: Arizona, Utah, Missouri, Georgia (43 electoral votes in total).

    Why? I do think, with Trump being the Republican presidential candidate, you need to give him a clear message after November 8th. Trump has already started to say that "The elections will be rigged if crooked Hillary wins!" To counteract that, you need to fully crush him, to let him show that it is Trump who did something wrong, and not 'crooked Hillary'. I do think then that an electoral vote victory of more than 332 electoral votes, by carrying at least one state that hasn't been carried at all by Obama in 2008 and 2012, gives Trump a clearer message. And an electoral victory between 348 electoral votes (Obama 2012 + Utah) and 390 (Obama 2012 + Utah, Missouri, Georgia & Arizona) will make Trump's defeat look much more like one of his business failures:
    [img][/img]giRUUmi.jpg

    Let's see if the Clinton campaign sees it like this as well. So far, the biggest 'extra prize' on top of an Obama 2012-electoral vote victory, seems to be Arizona. The Clinton campaign is already heavily campaigning there as opposed to Obama in 2012. But I seriously think Utah can be in play too. And Missouri and Georgia too. Although I think Utah seems more realistic to win when compared to Georgia and Missouri. As you can see in the last three polls from Utah:
    26% - 29% (Clinton - Trump): May 31-June 1, Gravis
    35% - 35% (Clinton - Trump): June 2-June 8, Survey USA
    36% - 35% (Clinton - Trump): July 31-Aug 1, Hinckley Institute
  • Posts: 315
    Huh? Say what? This a silly interactive game for people who have too much time on their hands. This is not how the 2016 election is working. Hillary is not concerned about sending a message to Trump and his supporters after the election. Why would she care about that? This isn't a football game where you do a victory lap.

    Hillary's backroom data/research team have each state, each town, each street broken down to likely voters. They know where to devote resources and what areas they have locked in support. They are not 'heavily campaigning' in Arizona. Why would they? Sen. McCain is in a bad situation for re-election. If he doesn't support Trump in the primary he loses. If he does support Trump, he loses the general. Hillaur's team is sitting back waiting for the implosion.

    My feeling is Hillary winds by 6-8%, the Dens take back the Senate and gain House members.
  • FLeiter wrote: »
    My feeling is Hillary winds by 6-8%, the Dens take back the Senate and gain House members.

    That's the way things look currently...but I have faith in Trump's ability to stick his foot into his mouth and keep flapping his lips while gnawing on his own ankle.. He's going to spend the next few months firing back at everybody who slights him, all while claiming that the race has been fixed by that crooked Hillary. Hillary wins by 10-12%, the Democrats take back the Senate and the Republicans hold the House by a razor-thin margin.
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 11,119
    From PoliticalWire.com:
    Trump’s Amazing 24 Hours

    First Read runs through the events of the last day:
    •In a Washington Post interview, Trump declined to endorse House Speaker Paul Ryan against his primary challenger
    •He reiterated that he hasn’t endorsed Sen. John McCain and said the onetime prisoner of war “has not done a good job for the vets”
    •He slapped out at Republican Sen. Kelly Ayotte, saying “she has given me zero support”
    •He suggested that Americans should pull their 401(k) funds out of the stock market
    •He said he’s “always wanted” to receive a Purple Heart but that having one gifted to him by a supporter was “much easier”
    •He said that the handling of sexual harassment has “got to be up to the individual”
    •He accused Khizr Khan of being “bothered” by his plan to keep terrorists out of the country, and said that he had no regrets about his clash with the family
    •He appeared to feud with a crying baby during a rally
    •He reiterated that “if the election is rigged, I would not be surprised”
    •The sitting president of the United States publicly called Trump “unfit to serve” and urged Republicans to withdraw their support for him.
    •Trump spokesman Katrina Pierson suggested that Obama and Clinton are to blame for the death of Humayan Khan, who died in 2004, when neither were in the executive branch at the time
    •An ally of Paul Manafort told our colleague John Harwood at CNBC that the campaign chairman is “mailing it in,” leaving the rest of the staff “suicidal.”
    •Sitting GOP congressman Richard Hanna, HP head Meg Whitman and former Christie aide Maria Comella all said they plan to vote for Hillary Clinton
    •The Washington Post released a transcript of its full interview with Trump, indicating among other things that he paused five times to watch TV coverage in the middle of the sit-down
    •A GOP source told NBC’s Katy Tur that Reince Priebus is “apoplectic” over Trump’s refusal to endorse Ryan and is making calls to the campaign to express his “extreme displeasure”

    Dear @BondJames, I would love to hear your expert assessment on this :-). IMO this is starting to become one huge weird comedy show. I can't help....laughing. And I wouldn't be surprised if Trump himself is going to say: "I'm out of the race".
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I'm sure you do.

    As I said, I don't waste time on trivial pursuits. The hatchet job is out in full force (apparently they want to try and wrap this up within the next two weeks according to reports, with their willing fools in the media).

    My take? This will backfire. The election will be a lot closer than your current rosy predictions have it.

    The only thing I'm not sure about yet is whether Trump is actually serious about this or is attempting to throw it. As I said after his convention speech, the man is far smarter about connecting with the public than I am. I think I know where he's going with this now (based on the convention speech) and I'll watch closely to see whether his plan succeeds.

    I'll be back to discuss here after the first debate. In the meanwhile, carry on with the Kumbaya.
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm sure you do.

    As I said, I don't waste time on trivial pursuits. The hatchet job is out in full force (apparently they want to try and wrap this up within the next two weeks according to reports, with their willing fools in the media).

    My take? This will backfire. The election will be a lot closer than your current rosy predictions have it.

    The only thing I'm not sure about yet is whether Trump is actually serious about this or is attempting to throw it. As I said after his convention speech, the man is far smarter about connecting with the public than I am. I think I know where he's going with this now (based on the convention speech) and I'll watch closely to see whether his plan succeeds.

    I'll be back to discuss here after the first debate. In the meanwhile, carry on with the Kumbaya.

    Wow, I didn't offend you I hope? But what plan do you actually mean? IMO I start thinking that Trump will shock us all.....be leaving the race. Do you think that can happen?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    No, I never get offended.

    I'm not sure if Trump is serious or not and the first debate will tell us that.

    As I've said several times before, you are witnessing the Art of the Deal in action. He's either got everyone fooled or he himself is the fool. The unpredictability is delicious.

    Either way he wins though - he will either become president or she will win and he will be a thorn in her (and the Republican party's) side with his coalition for 4 yrs. I somehow think he may be trying to pull a 'Boris' and just get close enough without winning, then control the Tea Party media coalition (including possibly some kind of show or channel even) but I have no idea. Maybe he really wants the job. Who knows?

    Again, all I can see at the moment is either way, he wins. Either way, she loses. The way she's campaigning (as expected) she will have half of the country hating her, and we're in for a lot of fun over the next four years. You ain't seen nothing yet.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    bondjames wrote: »
    Either way he wins though - he will either become president or she will win and he will be a thorn in her (and the Republican party's) side with his coalition for 4 yrs. I somehow think he may be trying to pull a 'Boris' and just get close enough without winning, then control the Tea Party media coalition (including possibly some kind of show or channel even) but I have no idea. Maybe he really wants the job. Who knows?

    Interesting line of thinking, but do you really think it's possible he's just doing this for shows to enlarge his name and make a business (case) out of it? You might be right and indeed, that would explain his oafish behaviour. Either that or he really is one. I agree on most of the sideline stuff, but attacking the Kahn family the way he did is attacking republicans in one of their core values. I've never met a republican disrespecting the military, except one who was more of a right-wing anarchist.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Either way he wins though - he will either become president or she will win and he will be a thorn in her (and the Republican party's) side with his coalition for 4 yrs. I somehow think he may be trying to pull a 'Boris' and just get close enough without winning, then control the Tea Party media coalition (including possibly some kind of show or channel even) but I have no idea. Maybe he really wants the job. Who knows?

    Interesting line of thinking, but do you really think it's possible he's just doing this for shows to enlarge his name and make a business (case) out of it? You might be right and indeed, that would explain his oafish behaviour. Either that or he really is one. I agree on most of the sideline stuff, but attacking the Kahn family the way he did is attacking republicans in one of their core values. I've never met a republican disrespecting the military, except one who was more of a right-wing anarchist.
    The convention speech is what tipped me off. I expected him to pivot. He instead doubled down. That's when I realized he was giving himself an 'out' to build a post-election coalition (a disaffected one). The indignation he showed when delivering the speech was the other tip off. It's power, just like Rush Limbaugh is power. Trump is a great communicator and that may have been the plan all along, as well as paving the way for his kids should they want to run in the future (they've come out looking like stars so far, and Ivanka's unscripted in the moment response to Obama's comments yesterday was very impressive).

    RE: The Kahns: He shouldn't have gone there. It was a slip up. They set it up and he took the bait. Silly move. Having said that, I don't think it will hurt him as much as some think. Kahn was all over the talk shows on the weekend in to yesterday. He should have just laid low and the impact would have been stronger. All it did was reinforce perceptions among those who disliked Trump in the beginning.

    RE: McCain and Ayotte: I'm sure Trump would rather see the back of those two (warmongers, along with Graham - the fearsome threesome).

    RE: Ryan: Trump's hedging. Just a little gentle payback given Ryan's buttkissing at the C@cK (sorry, Koch) fundraiser over the weekend.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Interesting, we'll see, it's an angle I hadn't thought off. And I agree on Kahn, after his wife's letter they should've laid low, saying they said all there was to say. That sure would've hurt Trump more.
    I'm not sure the fight with a couple of old republicans will make any difference at all, that's all political show and as far as i can tell (yes, from afar, I know) is that these senators have (had) little influence on any proceedings.

    And Donald paving the way for his kids, in his own flamboyand style might be just the thing. They do come over far more balanced. Donald Jr. and Eric will have some trouble with their big game hunting though, but I guess many conservatives from the south don't mind that at all. Anyway, that's still a long way off if it's ever dragged up.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited August 2016 Posts: 4,585
    There are several blunders being made right now that are damaging Trump and may dog him all the way to election day:

    1. The Khan issue isn't about substance: it's about persona. Trump's thin skin was on full display for all Americans to see, not just Republicans following the primaries.

    2. Lack of knowledge of Russia and Ukraine and arguing that Putin won't go into Ukraine. He got pounded on that screw up.

    3. A campaign rep saying that Obama is the reason for Khan's death. Somehow, the Trump campaign overlooked the fact that Khan died in 2004, five years before Obama took office. This kind of mistake is amateurish, and it's this amateurism that is also going to continue.

    If Trump makes this close, it won't be because of his communication skills. It will happen if Clinton messes up or if Congress's investigation into the emails becomes a public spectacle again.

    It's Clinton's Presidency to lose.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    TripAces wrote: »
    There are several blunders being made right now that are damaging Trump and may dog him all the way to election day:

    1. The Khan issue isn't about substance: it's about persona. Trump's thin skin was on full display for all Americans to see, not just Republicans following the primaries.

    2. Lack of knowledge of Russia and Ukraine and arguing that Putin won't go into Ukraine. He got pounded on that screw up.

    3. A campaign rep saying that Obama is the reason for Khan's death. Somehow, the Trump campaign overlooked the fact that Khan died in 2004, five years before Obama took office. This kind of mistake is amateurish, and it's this amateurism that is also going to continue.

    If Trump makes this close, it won't be because of his communication skills. It will happen if Clinton messes up or if Congress's investigation into the emails becomes a public spectacle again.

    It's Clinton's Presidency to lose.
    He's right on Ukraine, and he didn't mean Crimea. Putin isn't going anywhere else unless he's provoked (which he was on Crimea, and as I said before, anyone with a half a brain could have seen that move on a chess board. Nato and the EU obviously missed it, fools that they are).

    Trump doesn't even have a full campaign operation (or ground game) and his communciations team (outside of Manfort and Katrina Pierson) is a joke. Surrogate Kayleigh McEnany is brilliant however. That's why, as I said, for now I think there is a different play being made here. Either that or he's got something planned in a way that I can't see (e.g. if the Kochs are funding down ballot, will those voters vote for Trump in the end when in the booth? Are they indirectly funding Trump?)

    Actually, this is Trump's election to lose, and so far he is losing it. If he even had a modicum of a strategic operation at work (including a hard hitting 'communications war team'), he would have cleaned this up by now.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    A coup that is supported by the west is always referred to as a revolution. A revolution that isn t is likewise a coup.
  • Posts: 2,341
    Trump supporters at this stage are like being covered in honey with nothing but a twig to defend yourself against a group of hungry bears...Not defensible and should have the brains to get the hell out.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    OHMSS69 wrote: »
    Trump supporters at this stage are like being covered in honey with nothing but a twig to defend yourself against a group of hungry bears...Not defensible and should have the brains to get the hell out.

    This is true of every Presidential candidate at some point or another. The same goes for Obama and his infamous "you didn't build that" speech. one of the most important qualities to be President is that you don't start waving the white flag at the first sign of being it trouble. it's about how you handle the situation.
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 11,119
    OHMSS69 wrote: »
    Trump supporters at this stage are like being covered in honey with nothing but a twig to defend yourself against a group of hungry bears...Not defensible and should have the brains to get the hell out.

    This is true of every Presidential candidate at some point or another. The same goes for Obama and his infamous "you didn't build that" speech. one of the most important qualities to be President is that you don't start waving the white flag at the first sign of being it trouble. it's about how you handle the situation.

    Comparing Obama as president with Trump right now trying to get president....doesn't come even close to comparing apples with oranges. It's comparing apples with.....cars. Or apples with.......planets.

    The biggest problem I have with Trump is the fact that he sees the presidency as one big business deal for himself in which his media skills perhaps even help him right until November 8th. And it's true that Trump is seen as the 'people's man', the common, hardworking, ordinary people. But if that's really the only reason to elect him, then I want you to look at some examples in recent Dutch politics in which other populist parties and people were actually governing the country.

    And in all honesty, that's the moment where it usually goes wrong. That's the moment were populists with narcist tendencies are being revealed as incapable in actually governing a country.


    Majority coalition government of CDA-VVD-LPF (2002-2003)
    200px-ZetelsBalkenendeI.svg.png
    Let's start with the late Pim Fortuyn. He wrote a book -"De Puinhopen Van Paars" ("The Disasters of Eight Years Purple Coalition"- and he thought that was enough to govern. He thought a carefully written party program with solutions wasn't necessary. But then his party LPF (Lijst Pim Fortuyn, an early predecessor of Geert Wilders' PVV) entered the coalition government with CDA (Conservatives) and VVD (Conservative Liberals) in 2002, and what we got then was nothing short of banana republic affairs and a powerless outgoing 'caretaker' government until May 2003. It was....a mess.

    Now we all know Pim Fortuyn got assassinated on May 6th 2002. And trust me, I was shocked about itIt was an attack on the freedom of speech. And as of today, I do admire Pim Fortuyn on at least some issues. But make no mistake, his character was authoritarian, he was in many ways slightly narcist, and self-criticism and nuance were truly unknowns to him. And even if he was still the party leader of LPF, I don't see how the coalition government of CDA-VVD-LPF would have survived.


    Minority coalition government of VVD-CDA + extraparliamentary support PVV (2010-2012)
    200px-ZetelsRutte-metPVV.svg.png
    Then 3 years later in 2005 Mr Geert Wilders founded the PVV (Party of Freedom), which is now one of the bigger political forces in Dutch politics. They, sort of, entered the government of VVD (Conservative Liberals) and CDA (Christian Conservatives) in a minority construction in 2010: VVD and CDA were forming a government, but didn't have a majority in the government together. They delivered the kabinet and the PM. But in a minority accord with PVV, the PVV became the sole supporter of this minority government. By backing proposals from the minority supporter, the minority government in return executed all wishes from the PVV with regard to immigration and (anti-)Islam. The biggest advantage for the PVV was the fact that they could push their agenda forcefully, without having real government responsibility and without delivering members for the cabinet.

    The minority government of VVD and CDA with extraparliamentary support from PVV, as written down in the minority coalition agreement between VVD-CDA on one hand and PVV on the other hand, fell only 1,5 years after it was sworn in.


    So, both periods of the above governments, July 22nd 2002 until May 27th 2003 (with populist party LPF) and October 14th 2010 until April 23rd 2012 (with populist party PVV), were messy affairs in which, in my opinion, the country stood still. Both governments didn't come even close to finish a full 4-year term! No real backbone was shown in actually really changing the country with progressive legislation. The constant focus on immigration reform made the country less attractive for investors. The economy underperformed in those periods. But most importantly, the populists themselves could not find common ground in actually governing the country. The periods were marked by lots of gossip, bullying, narcism, little internal rows, unexpected resignations and God knows what other nonsense that distracted from a real important goal that was never really met: Effective government.


    So, in my honest opinion I do think I can say what mess you get when you start giving some power to populists: They corrupt themselves. And in the case of the 2010-2012 minority government, PVV didn't even have the balls to be a full government partner, but the damage to that government was still farfetching. So again, please stop comparing Obama with Trump? Running a business is one thing.

    But running a country is so much more delicate, it is full of nuances and complexities, and it is built on the notion that it actually IS impossible to always find common ground and that it IS necessary on many occasions to disappoint the people who have voted for you! And with the above examples in Dutch politics, by jolly....let's be sane and pragmatic here: Donald Trump simply doesn't have it to be a US president, to lead a government with the understanding that there's a 'Three-way Separation of Powers'.

    In The Netherlands we have endured the rise of populism since 2002. Populist parties like the PVV (with Geert Wilders) and its predecessor LPF have been part of politics since 2002. So in a way they can be seen as firm establishment forces now as of 2016. And in all honesty? 'They' promised us heavens and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow. Well, look where we are now 14 years later.....
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    OHMSS69 wrote: »
    Trump supporters at this stage are like being covered in honey with nothing but a twig to defend yourself against a group of hungry bears...Not defensible and should have the brains to get the hell out.

    This is true of every Presidential candidate at some point or another. The same goes for Obama and his infamous "you didn't build that" speech. one of the most important qualities to be President is that you don't start waving the white flag at the first sign of being it trouble. it's about how you handle the situation.

    Comparing Obama as president with Trump right now trying to get president....doesn't come even close to comparing apples with oranges. It's comparing apples with.....cars. Or apples with.......planets.

    The biggest problem I have with Trump is the fact that he sees the presidency as one big business deal for himself in which his media skills perhaps even help him right until November 8th. And it's true that Trump is seen as the 'people's man', the common, hardworking, ordinary people. But if that's really the only reason to elect him, then I want you to look at some examples in recent Dutch politics in which other populist parties and people were actually governing the country.

    And in all honesty, that's the moment where it usually goes wrong. That's the moment were populists with narcist tendencies are being revealed as incapable in actually governing a country.


    Majority coalition government of CDA-VVD-LPF (2002-2003)
    200px-ZetelsBalkenendeI.svg.png
    Let's start with the late Pim Fortuyn. He wrote a book -"De Puinhopen Van Paars" ("The Disasters of Eight Years Purple Coalition"- and he thought that was enough to govern. He thought a carefully written party program with solutions wasn't necessary. But then his party LPF (Lijst Pim Fortuyn, an early predecessor of Geert Wilders' PVV) entered the coalition government with CDA (Conservatives) and VVD (Conservative Liberals) in 2002, and what we got then was nothing short of banana republic affairs and a powerless outgoing 'caretaker' government until May 2003. It was....a mess.

    Now we all know Pim Fortuyn got assassinated on May 6th 2002. And trust me, I was shocked about itIt was an attack on the freedom of speech. And as of today, I do admire Pim Fortuyn on at least some issues. But make no mistake, his character was authoritarian, he was in many ways slightly narcist, and self-criticism and nuance were truly unknowns to him. And even if he was still the party leader of LPF, I don't see how the coalition government of CDA-VVD-LPF would have survived.


    Minority coalition government of VVD-CDA + extraparliamentary support PVV (2010-2012)
    200px-ZetelsRutte-metPVV.svg.png
    Then 3 years later in 2005 Mr Geert Wilders founded the PVV (Party of Freedom), which is now one of the bigger political forces in Dutch politics. They, sort of, entered the government of VVD (Conservative Liberals) and CDA (Christian Conservatives) in a minority construction in 2010: VVD and CDA were forming a government, but didn't have a majority in the government together. They delivered the kabinet and the PM. But in a minority accord with PVV, the PVV became the sole supporter of this minority government. By backing proposals from the minority supporter, the minority government in return executed all wishes from the PVV with regard to immigration and (anti-)Islam. The biggest advantage for the PVV was the fact that they could push their agenda forcefully, without having real government responsibility and without delivering members for the cabinet.

    The minority government of VVD and CDA with extraparliamentary support from PVV, as written down in the minority coalition agreement between VVD-CDA on one hand and PVV on the other hand, fell only 1,5 years after it was sworn in.


    So, both periods of the above governments, July 22nd 2002 until May 27th 2003 (with populist party LPF) and October 14th 2010 until April 23rd 2012 (with populist party PVV), were messy affairs in which, in my opinion, the country stood still. Both governments didn't come even close to finish a full 4-year term! No real backbone was shown in actually really changing the country with progressive legislation. The constant focus on immigration reform made the country less attractive for investors. The economy underperformed in those periods. But most importantly, the populists themselves could not find common ground in actually governing the country. The periods were marked by lots of gossip, bullying, narcism, little internal rows, unexpected resignations and God knows what other nonsense that distracted from a real important goal that was never really met: Effective government.


    So, in my honest opinion I do think I can say what mess you get when you start giving some power to populists: They corrupt themselves. And in the case of the 2010-2012 minority government, PVV didn't even have the balls to be a full government partner, but the damage to that government was still farfetching. So again, please stop comparing Obama with Trump? Running a business is one thing.

    But running a country is so much more delicate, it is full of nuances and complexities, and it is built on the notion that it actually IS impossible to always find common ground and that it IS necessary on many occasions to disappoint the people who have voted for you! And with the above examples in Dutch politics, by jolly....let's be sane and pragmatic here: Donald Trump simply doesn't have it to be a US president, to lead a government with the understanding that there's a 'Three-way Separation of Powers'.

    In The Netherlands we have endured the rise of populism since 2002. Populist parties like the PVV (with Geert Wilders) and its predecessor LPF have been part of politics since 2002. So in a way they can be seen as firm establishment forces now as of 2016. And in all honesty? 'They' promised us heavens and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow. Well, look where we are now 14 years later.....

    That is surely some interesting data, Gustav.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited August 2016 Posts: 12,480
    Nuclear situation with Trump in charge.
    This link is a series of tweets from someone who worked in our nuclear program (in the underground control center for nuclear weapons). So ... not a parody; I think it's worth a read. Very concisely presented. Click on what looks like a video in this (it opens a slideshow of the tweets).

  • edited August 2016 Posts: 3,566
    OHMSS69 wrote: »
    Trump supporters at this stage are like being covered in honey with nothing but a twig to defend yourself against a group of hungry bears...Not defensible and should have the brains to get the hell out.

    Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

    Meanwhile, the saner Republicans are in a rush to get out the door without letting it hit them from behind. Meg Whitman, noted Republican fund-raiser (and occasional unsuccessful candidate for the Republicans here in California) is endorsing Hillary and will be actively fundraising on her behalf. A couple of current Republican senators are pointedly repudiating him, with more sure to follow. Trump himself has declined to endorse the re-election campaigns of both John McCain and Paul Ryan (both of whom HAVE endorsed him, at least for now) and Republican Party chairman Reince Priebus is fit to be tied. More popcorn, anyone?
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