Blade Runner 2049/Blade Runner 2099 Live-Action Sequel Series Discussion

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  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I love @ProfJoeButcher 's flair for sarcasm. Professor, did Ford really feel like Deckard to you? For me he didn't.

    Now that we're talking about story logic, for a minute please "indulge me." Can someone tell me why were replicants made so complicated to identify in the first film? I understand them resembling humans as much as possible, but couldn't their design have contemplated an easier way of telling them apart from humans? I remember asking about this once in a forum; can't remember what they said though.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited October 2017 Posts: 17,801
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Can someone tell me why were replicants made so complicated to identify in the first film? I understand them resembling humans as much as possible, but couldn't their design have contemplated an easier way of telling them apart from humans? I remember asking about this once in a forum; can't remember what they said though.
    Well, they aren't machines, they're genetically manipulated... I suppose they could all be made to have red hair or something, but then humans can change their hair colour... you could add dog DNA into their mix, but then pleasure models would be... dogs. ;) You could make them all have a similar 'birthmark' on their foreheads... but laser surgery could remove it...
    Short of making them look not-human ("More human THAN human" is the sell phrase) I'm not sure what could be done about that.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Well, I think the idea is that they have to appear to be human to anyone interacting with them, but perhaps their internal anatomy could be different from a human and nobody would tell. I guess some sort of nanotechnology could be implemented (though I don't know how advanced that was back when they made the film). Just speculating, of course.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited October 2017 Posts: 1,711
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I love @ProfJoeButcher 's flair for sarcasm. Professor, did Ford really feel like Deckard to you? For me he didn't.

    Well, I'd give quite a bit of leeway on this point because I expect people to be somewhat different after doubling in age. I was just saying that in this film, Ford turned in a great acting performance, not necessarily that he seemed just like Deckard in the original.

    I don't think they got Rachel's eye colour wrong (they were brown in the original) it was just Deckard winding Wallace up and being nonchalant when seeing Rachel again was hard to take.

    Yeah, you're probably right. I looked into this a bit more, and I guess there's a continuity error in one scene of the original where she does have a green eye, but they're otherwise brown. This line may not only have been what you say, but also a cute reference to that.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Of course he was. He probably watched this as a teen.

    Pity his tribute wasn't worthy of it isn't it?


    I loved that scene in "SPECTRE" actually. A new, re-invented, more horrific take on how S.P.E.C.T.R.E. originally killed its members. We couldn't do piranhas anymore, could we?
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 4,617
    The original does have question to ask and (as with SF) I think as a fan of the movie, you tend to come to its defence and try to fill in the holes.

    |Re identifying replicants, Tyrell wanted to create a replicant who was so close to human that they did not know themselves. (why he did this, who knows but sometimes power brings "the God complex") , so to do this, you need to have no distinctions that the subject can identify. QED Racheal thought she was human (why should she not?) as she had no proof she wasnt (back to our religious thread re requiring proof of a postive or a negative). Based on that scenario, how do any of us prove we are human? what proof is expected? what exactly is "human"? any of us could be a replicant? this whole thing could be inside a computer (Matrix scenario),

    so perhaps Tyrell thought he was God and Rachael was his Eve (he did say she was special with no termination date,) and Batty and his team were just below that (they obviously knew the were replicants), its all great stuff, science fiction brings deep philosophy to the movie screen, ...love it.

    PS with cloning and embryo manipulation etc etc, humans are getting closer to being God, so the original was way ahead of its time.

    PPS to those who prefer the follow up, (obviously they have every right to that view) but surely the original deserves more resepct in that it actually was new? It created a whole new world and a whole look that influenced so many others. Dont we need to give it credit for that? If we end up not giving movies credit for being new and creative, then we reward ourselves with a whole future just full of sequals.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,007
    When I walked out after seeing Blade Runner way back in 1982 I felt I had seen something very special (Even if the critics didn't). It was tangible and all to real future that was being presented in the film. That first shot of the LA landscape with towers belching out flames and realistic looking flying cars coupled with Vangelis's music was an incredible cinematic moment. It was wondrous and stunning and it still is whenever I watch it nowadays.

    I don't think Ridley Scott's future vision has ever been equalled. It was a serious and dangerous future, but also exciting and all too real.

    I like the new film, but it's only emulating Scott's original vision. Yes it's beautifully shot and the set design is incredible. But it's not an original vision.

    I'm actually a little pissed at the critics fawning all over this film when the original was virtually ignored on it's release.

    Blade Runner 2049 is not a five star film, I don't care what anyone says. It's an excellent film but also has flaws. It's a wonderful sequel to the original. But it merely follows in the footsteps of greatness and innovative cinema.
  • Posts: 4,617
    "But it merely follows in the footsteps of greatness and innovative cinema."

    Well said
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    edited October 2017 Posts: 1,756
    Blade Runner 2049 is a masterpiece and it's better than the original imo. I think this movie took what the 1982 version did, and did it better in every aspect. All of that, while paying tribute to the first film beautifully. This is a future classic.

    This is coming from someone who had just recently seen the original Blade Runner next to 2049.

    For example, K's arch is a lot more fulfilling and tragic than that of Rachel and/or Roy. The idea of what it means to be a human is much better implied (Rain scenes, snow scenes, K going against the grain, Stelline being human yet trapped in a world of only artificial experiences). I think it does better justice to DADOES too.

    That's not too say BR is a bad film. It's a masterpiece in it's own right, but I think the original Ghost in the Shell was a better film.

    What really made the original a classic was it's mood. It's visuals. Villeneuve amped up the visuals (I mean come on the sync between the prostitute and Joi was incredible) AND the story. Executed perfectly.
  • Posts: 4,617
    "better in every aspect." wow ...not alot of wriggle room there
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,007
    Blade Runner 2049 is a masterpiece and it's better than the original imo. I think this movie took what the 1982 version did, and did it better in every aspect. All of that, while paying tribute to the first film beautifully. This is a future classic.

    The ending of 2049 can't even begin to compare with Roy Batty's final moments. Even with the same piece of music playing.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    Posts: 1,756
    patb wrote: »
    "better in every aspect." wow ...not alot of wriggle room there

    I elaborated.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    edited October 2017 Posts: 1,756
    Blade Runner 2049 is a masterpiece and it's better than the original imo. I think this movie took what the 1982 version did, and did it better in every aspect. All of that, while paying tribute to the first film beautifully. This is a future classic.

    The ending of 2049 can't even begin to compare with Roy Batty's final moments. Even with the same piece of music playing.

    I disagree.

    The tragedy which is Roy is that he finally became free from being a slave, and went out to confront his mortality in front of his creator, the same way a child would in the same scenario. And in the end when Roy was chasing Deckard, he saves him, and faces his death before he dies, stating that, essentially, life sucks... his memories can't be saved. But he's wrong. Deckard cries and in that moment sealed that Roy would be remembered. In that moment Deckard realised a replicant can feel human without being human.

    In 2049 we follow K in a similar way. He starts off as a cog in the wheel, but you can see his longings to being a human through his interactions with Joi. His line to Joshi about "souls", you can see it bothers him when she says he doesn't have one. And the fact that he keeps thinking about the line:

    "You newer models are happy scraping the SHIT because you've never seen a miracle"

    Villeneuve shows us this, whereas Ridley Scott tells us this. And his display of it is a lot better imo. Especially when he finds out the connection to the bones, the memory confirming they aren't fabricated. He goes out in the snow and feels the snow in his hands. He FEELS like he knows what it's like to be a human.

    And of course, spoiler, he learns he is not human born and he is crushed. But he learns later, after saving Deckard, that it doesn't matter. He finally became free of being "a cog in the wheel" and saved Deckard becoming "more human than human". Now when he's in the snow dying, unlike Roy, he dies knowing his memories and his actions will live on forever, and feels the snow in his hands for one last time. In this moment he knows whether he's human or not doesn't matter because he feels alive. Ironic, considering the Stelline is more real but has never had the real human experiences K had.

    That's why I feel K's arch is better than Roy's; it feels a lot deeper to me. But that's my opinion.
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    The ending of BR2049 is great but I agree, it's not as good as the original's ending.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Blade Runner 2049 is a masterpiece and it's better than the original imo. I think this movie took what the 1982 version did, and did it better in every aspect. All of that, while paying tribute to the first film beautifully. This is a future classic.

    This is coming from someone who had just recently seen the original Blade Runner next to 2049.

    For example, K's arch is a lot more fulfilling and tragic than that of Rachel and/or Roy. The idea of what it means to be a human is much better implied (Rain scenes, snow scenes, K going against the grain, Stelline being human yet trapped in a world of only artificial experiences). I think it does better justice to DADOES too.

    That's not too say BR is a bad film. It's a masterpiece in it's own right, but I think the original Ghost in the Shell was a better film.

    What really made the original a classic was it's mood. It's visuals. Villeneuve amped up the visuals (I mean come on the sync between the prostitute and Joi was incredible) AND the story. Executed perfectly.
    Agreed 100%.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    And of course, spoiler, he learns he is not human born and he is crushed. But he learns later, after saving Deckard, that it doesn't matter. He finally became free of being "a cog in the wheel" and saved Deckard becoming "more human than human". Now when he's in the snow dying, unlike Roy, he dies knowing his memories and his actions will live on forever, and feels the snow in his hands for one last time. In this moment he knows whether he's human or not doesn't matter because he feels alive. Ironic, considering the Stelline is more real but has never had the real human experiences K had.

    That's why I feel K's arch is better than Roy's; it feels a lot deeper to me. But that's my opinion.
    I still like the original better, but you articulated you own view quite eloquently here! And a worthy view it is.

  • edited October 2017 Posts: 684
    And of course, spoiler, he learns he is not human born and he is crushed. But he learns later, after saving Deckard, that it doesn't matter. He finally became free of being "a cog in the wheel" and saved Deckard becoming "more human than human". Now when he's in the snow dying, unlike Roy, he dies knowing his memories and his actions will live on forever, and feels the snow in his hands for one last time. In this moment he knows whether he's human or not doesn't matter because he feels alive. Ironic, considering the Stelline is more real but has never had the real human experiences K had.
    A good observation. Especially as it pertains to the ending. The end of BR is iconic in its own right, but I thought BR2049 really held its own in its final scene. No big speech, just action. A man lying down to die in the snow. The whole movie he's sought to know what's real. He holds out his hand and feels the snow. That's what's real, and it's enough. Cut to: K's thematic sister, Stelline, inside, likewise with snow—the snow she's manufacturing in a memory. She cannot touch it. It passes through her hand. She may herself be 'real' (i.e. born, and so by the film's definition, soulful), but she has not felt the snow.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Could've been obviously revealed and I just missed it on the first viewing, but I got the vibe that Stelline was never sick, and it was just a ruse put in place by Deckard and Rachel to ensure nobody ever went inside the glass to confront her, therefore keeping her even more safe.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,007
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Could've been obviously revealed and I just missed it on the first viewing, but I got the vibe that Stelline was never sick, and it was just a ruse put in place by Deckard and Rachel to ensure nobody ever went inside the glass to confront her, therefore keeping her even more safe.

    That's the feeling I got as well.
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I got the vibe that Stelline was never sick, and it was just a ruse put in place by Deckard and Rachel to ensure nobody ever went inside the glass to confront her, therefore keeping her even more safe.

    I don't think either of them planned on her being in that glass room. Rachel died in childbirth and Deckard went away to protect them. I don't think Deckard even knew the gender of his child.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I got the vibe that Stelline was never sick, and it was just a ruse put in place by Deckard and Rachel to ensure nobody ever went inside the glass to confront her, therefore keeping her even more safe.

    I don't think either of them planned on her being in that glass room. Rachel died in childbirth and Deckard went away to protect them. I don't think Deckard even knew the gender of his child.

    See? Knew it'd be something obvious - though Deckard did know, because K is operating under the impression the entire film that the boy escaped and the girl died from a genetic disorder, which Deckard tells K about later on when he mentions how he taught them how to cover their tracks.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    PKD had a twin sister who died in infancy. Much like KD6-7.3 is led to believe that he had. Coincidence?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    For anyone here who has not seen the Blade Runner workprint which predates the final theatrical release, THIS appeared in the beginning instead of the crawl they chose. (Also there was not much narration at all until Batty's death scene...)

    br_wkpt_dictionary.jpg
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    After its had some time to marinate in my mind, my consensus is that I will have to rewatch it for a formal opinion, but as of right now, I thought there wasn’t enough of a story and some scenes were over long. The dialogue and characters were not always able to make up for the overlong sequences although- sometimes they were. I didn’t feel like I had experinaced an epic by the end like how I felt after the first one but rather that it was anti climactic and didn’t really go anywhere with the great themes it tried to convey. Harrison Ford doesn’t do enough and nor does Leto, his character doesn’t get a fitting resolution which I guess would be fine if this was part of a trilogy but that is yet to be confirmed. It has incredible visuals but I’m afraid that’s not enough.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 4,617
    Perhaps I am being harsh but in the original, there are certain scenes that standout as being amazing: both in their look, atmosphere and drama. I know some viewers are moved by the "death in the snow" scene but for me, there is nothing of the dramatic power and intensity of the original.

    It's a bad habit but I cant help feeling how they could have made it a better film and IMHO, it keeps coming back to the story. It really does plod along.

    So imagine if there was a twist at the end and it turns out the whole thing was a bluff re her death and Rachael appears at the end? your mouth would drop, surely? It needed something like that...something draw dropping.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited October 2017 Posts: 17,801
    patb wrote: »
    So imagine if there was a twist at the end and it turns out the whole thing was a bluff re her death and Rachael appears at the end? your mouth would drop, surely? It needed something like that...something draw dropping.
    That would have made it so very nearly equal to the first IMHO. Good call.

  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    patb wrote: »
    The original does have question to ask and (as with SF) I think as a fan of the movie, you tend to come to its defence and try to fill in the holes.

    |Re identifying replicants, Tyrell wanted to create a replicant who was so close to human that they did not know themselves. (why he did this, who knows but sometimes power brings "the God complex") , so to do this, you need to have no distinctions that the subject can identify. QED Racheal thought she was human (why should she not?) as she had no proof she wasnt (back to our religious thread re requiring proof of a postive or a negative). Based on that scenario, how do any of us prove we are human? what proof is expected? what exactly is "human"? any of us could be a replicant? this whole thing could be inside a computer (Matrix scenario),

    Well, beyond the film's analysis of what it means to be human, the fact is, in the world of the film, a replicant is someone who was made by Tyrell and a human is someone who wasn't. My point was that replicants could've been made that had something different inside them --technological, biological or otherwise-- that allowed blade runners to more easily identify them, something that other people and/or the replicants themselves couldn't identify, and something that didn't have any noticeable bearing on the behavior of these replicants. If the whole replicant technology was relevant enough in the world of the film to merit the existence of blade runners, I don't see why Tyrell couldn't have been pressured by the government to include such a feature in his replicants. I'm just arguing from a logic standpoint. For example --once again, just speculating here, so this could be way off base-- something that could've helped to distinguish replicants from humans could've been the emission of an odor that humans couldn't detect without the help of some machine. That, or nanotechnology. It just seems to me the idea behind the Voight-Kampff test performed by blade runners was not by design, but an accidental discovery.
  • Posts: 676
    patb wrote: »
    So imagine if there was a twist at the end and it turns out the whole thing was a bluff re her death and Rachael appears at the end? your mouth would drop, surely? It needed something like that...something draw dropping.
    I thought perhaps it would have been interesting if the Freysa character (leader of the replicant resistance) had been Rachael instead. Maybe a bit cliche, but a better use of the character than killing her off before the movie and then again during the movie! Freysa looks a lot like Rachael already:

    freysa-hiam-abbass-2.png
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited October 2017 Posts: 5,185
    mattjoes wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    The original does have question to ask and (as with SF) I think as a fan of the movie, you tend to come to its defence and try to fill in the holes.

    |Re identifying replicants, Tyrell wanted to create a replicant who was so close to human that they did not know themselves. (why he did this, who knows but sometimes power brings "the God complex") , so to do this, you need to have no distinctions that the subject can identify. QED Racheal thought she was human (why should she not?) as she had no proof she wasnt (back to our religious thread re requiring proof of a postive or a negative). Based on that scenario, how do any of us prove we are human? what proof is expected? what exactly is "human"? any of us could be a replicant? this whole thing could be inside a computer (Matrix scenario),

    Well, beyond the film's analysis of what it means to be human, the fact is, in the world of the film, a replicant is someone who was made by Tyrell and a human is someone who wasn't. My point was that replicants could've been made that had something different inside them --technological, biological or otherwise-- that allowed blade runners to more easily identify them, something that other people and/or the replicants themselves couldn't identify, and something that didn't have any noticeable bearing on the behavior of these replicants. If the whole replicant technology was relevant enough in the world of the film to merit the existence of blade runners, I don't see why Tyrell couldn't have been pressured by the government to include such a feature in his replicants. I'm just arguing from a logic standpoint. For example --once again, just speculating here, so this could be way off base-- something that could've helped to distinguish replicants from humans could've been the emission of an odor that humans couldn't detect without the help of some machine. That, or nanotechnology. It just seems to me the idea behind the Voight-Kampff test performed by blade runners was not by design, but an accidental discovery.

    It's the eyes. It's one of the main themes of both movies actually.
    In the first movie they used different lighting techniques on the replicants eyes to make them look different from the humans (more shiny) in BR2049 you see at the very beginning, when K fights Batista, that his eye has a serial number (and not just on the eyes as seen when they examine Rachels bones)
    I think that might even be the reason why Freysa is missing here eye, as it is never explained really. maybe she wanted to get rid of that mark
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