Was SPECTRE a disappointment?

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  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    Venutius wrote: »
    I watch SP every time it's on tv - I've seen it four times since October thanks to ITV! ;)
    There's one brief flash of the Blofeld that Waltz could've been - when he looks at the henchman as a signal to knock Bond unconscious. Just in that one quick shot, Waltz is completely dead-eyed and there's a blankness to his face that really gives an idea of the cold menace that Blofeld should possess. It's quicker than any QOS edit, though, so it's easily missed!

    I'll have to watch out for that. Waltz as Blofeld is probably #1 on the long list of missed opportunities in SP (most of which have been thoroughly chewed over here). Everything about him is like a sketch - can't find it, I think it's Mitchell & Webb - were a magician tries to convince a guy something amazing is about to happen and the guy just deadpan knows how the trick works from the beginning.
    "We have Waltz as the villain!"
    "He's Blofeld, right?"
    "NONONO. He's Hans Oberhauser. Totally different guy, but he leads SPECTRE!"
    "So he's Blofeld."
    "NO, he has this cool crater base and everything."
    "All of that really sounds like he's Blofeld."
    "No no. He has a personal connection with Bond as turns out to be his greatest nemisis."
    "Yeah, that guy is Blofeld."
    "SUPRISE! HE'S BLOFELD!"
    "..."

    They really could have done a better job of introducing both Blofeld and SPECTRE as a threat. As @Mendes4Lyfe has said: Bond just kind of walks through the plot and most of the time it is a bit unclear why he is doing anything and what he wants out of the whole situation.
    A few months ago someone on twitter posted script pages from the conversation between Bond and White at Althaussee on, where White explains he was in a group of Foreign Legion deserters with Blofeld and they where trapped in a sandstorm in the desert. One night, Blofeld cut everyone's throat except White's because he needed White to carry parts of the bodies for food on their way out of the desert. Now, hearing that would have made me interested in finding out who that Blofeld fella is!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    GBF wrote: »
    It's fascinating to see the subjectivity of opinion on such full display here! Mendes4Lyfe mentioned Bond being taken to Blofeld's lair first on his list of boring moments in Spectre, and for me, it's possibly my favorite moment/sequence in the entire series. Watching the Rolls Royce pull up to this desert installation alongside an unnaturally green lawn being tended by cheesy sprinklers, where Blofeld's cheesy assistant awaits, protected by a cheesy bodybuilder dressed as a butler...it brings the benign bizarre back to the series in a way we hadn't seen since the 1980s at the very least. But obviously it's not for everyone.

    And yes, there's a goofiness to Bond going alone (or nearly alone) to the villain's base armed with only a gun and not much of a plan or element of surprise, but on the other hand, he did more or less this very thing in every film from the 1970s. I know it's a little farfetched that shooting the right gas line could cause a whole base to explode, but in the past you could get the same effect by dumping a body in the wrong vat of liquid, or turning a dial up to "danger level". It's nothing new, honestly.

    These throwbacks to under-recognized Bond tropes, combined with that "benign bizarre" that had long been absent from the series, really does it for me with this movie.

    Well, but never before does a villain's lair got destroyed so easily .... In the earlier films you mentioned Bond was usually supported by a big army... or Bond only had to fight against the main villain and maybe a few henchmen. Furthermore, there have been better explanations why the lair is destroyed.... In Spectre it rather happens incidently.

    In my mind I still prefer it that Spectre activated a self destruct on the lair because it was compromised. I know it's not how it happened, but... IMO it would have been the cooler resolution to that sequence.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I will never forget SP's teaser trailer. It was looking like a very, very, very suspenseful and mysterious Bond film and it had everything to be it. I was really surprised they didn't make Lucia Sciarra a proper and enigmatic femme fatale. SP could have easily been competing with CR by now, as Craig's best Bond, if only they did proper writing on it. One of the things I like about SP though, it's the Travelogue element and Newman really shows that in his score, when he's not repeating his SF cues.
  • Posts: 2,161
    SP Teaser was absolutely great. It had me so excited.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I will never forget SP's teaser trailer. It was looking like a very, very, very suspenseful and mysterious Bond film and it had everything to be it. I was really surprised they didn't make Lucia Sciarra a proper and enigmatic femme fatale. SP could have easily been competing with CR by now, as Craig's best Bond, if only they did proper writing on it. One of the things I like about SP though, it's the Travelogue element and Newman really shows that in his score, when he's not repeating his SF cues.

    I remember being so hyped, particularly seeing Mr. White, all frazzled, saying, "You're a kite dancing in a hurricane, Mr. Bond."

    Coming off SF, it seemed that Mendes was going to top himself. But alas, no...it was such a letdown, not at all what I had hoped.

    Now, I like the film more. I think it has a unique place in the canon, especially in DC's arc. And I think cinema resonates with us because it takes us back to times and places. SP is a film I will connect with one of my best friends and two of my closest aunts, all of whom died within days of each other, a week or so before SP was released. It was not the best of times. Three funerals. It's now one of those things when you look back and say, "How the hell did I get through that?"

    SP was in the thick of that mess. I climbed out of it, dusted myself off, and moved forward, much like Bond following the building collapse in the pts.


    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I will never forget SP's teaser trailer. It was looking like a very, very, very suspenseful and mysterious Bond film and it had everything to be it. I was really surprised they didn't make Lucia Sciarra a proper and enigmatic femme fatale. SP could have easily been competing with CR by now, as Craig's best Bond, if only they did proper writing on it. One of the things I like about SP though, it's the Travelogue element and Newman really shows that in his score, when he's not repeating his SF cues.

    FWIW: Newman didn't re-record his old SF score. Mendes made the decision to take that older music and incorporate it into SP. To the best of my knowledge, that was 100% Mendes's decision, to link the two films thematically, and not Newman's.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2022 Posts: 6,296
    SP definitely had one of the more intriguing teaser trailers in the series.

    Not so sure about Mendes overruling Newman on the score. They've been close collaborators for decades.

    It may have been that they ran out of time. I think that shows in the script, the editing (especially the Spectre meeting), and the score.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    I thought I heard somewhere too that using the Skyfall music was a Mendes choice (but I could be wrong).

    Spectre's teaser was amazing.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    echo wrote: »
    SP definitely had one of the more intriguing teaser trailers in the series.

    Not so sure about Mendes overruling Newman on the score. They've been close collaborators for decades.

    It may have been that they ran out of time. I think that shows in the script, the editing (especially the Spectre meeting), and the score.

    Mendes has final say in what music will be used and where. In his liner notes, Newman notes that his score for the Bond/Moneypenny shaving scene, titled "Old Dog, New Tricks" was rejected by Mendes because it was too sexually suggestive. So Newman composed "Close Shave" to replace it. (Good choice.)

    In working with David Fincher, Atticus Ross and Trent Reznor would sometimes compose tracks meant for a specific scene, only to then then find Fincher using them for a different scene.

    In terms of SP, I'm sure Mendes simply said to Newman, "I want to take some of the SF tracks and use them in SP." And Newman probably shrugged and said, "OK." And that was that.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 2022 Posts: 3,152
    The variation I heard was that Newman used the SF music as a guide, intending to replace it later but Mendes liked the way it worked it and told him to keep it. Dunno how true that is. I thought it worked well, though. Never really understood why key themes from past soundtracks didn't reappear at appropriate points in other films in the series, tbh - the few times it did happen before NTTD, eg. the echoes of Vesper's Theme in QOS and the use of OHMSS in the SP trailer, added something worthwhile and worked really well, I thought.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Agree about QOS and OHMSS in SP teaser, but the SF music in SP didn't feel the same. It didn't feel like meaningful callbacks, it felt like a recycled soundtrack. IMO of course.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 2022 Posts: 3,152
    Not even the introspective, noir-ish theme that reappeared when Bond opened the half-burned envelope? An SF cue to accompany Bond looking at surviving personal effects from Skyfall? I could lose the SF music in SP's action scenes, I guess, but I'd've kept that in for sure.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    That moment was fine I suppose. I'm thinking of the PTS, the Rome car chase, mostly.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Yes, I know what you're saying.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited February 2022 Posts: 4,247
    Yeah, you all make good points about SP, guys. Not kidding, but I think we all can cook up several ideas to make SP fantastic.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I really wonder how the writing process took place. Has the third act the way it was made always been their first choice? Or had there been a version in which they focused entirely on the crater base?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited February 2022 Posts: 7,547
    Imagine the climax is Bond and Madeleine trying to escape the exploding lair, Blofeld had since escaped and is maybe goading them on over some barely functioning PA system as they escape through fiery corridors. A mangled, enraged Hinx reappears to stop them with no regard for his own life. No foster brother stuff, just a career mastermind criminal that M had been discreetly investigating before her death, before finally getting Bond involved. Could have been cool.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2022 Posts: 5,970
    The torture scene I think was last minute change if I remember rightly, wasn't it originally a poker game between Bond and Oberhauser that ended with the watch exploding in Oberhauser's face?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    If so, I'm glad they changed it!
  • Posts: 2,161
    I worry that by semi-adapting the CS torture scene (particularly citing the dialogue), we will not see it done fully in an actual COLONEL SUN film. At least not in the near future.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I worry that by semi-adapting the CS torture scene (particularly citing the dialogue), we will not see it done fully in an actual COLONEL SUN film. At least not in the near future.

    Maybe if they do a Colonel Sun film, they'll have he and Bond do a swordfight in a volcanic castle.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    When Bond said to Q "make me disappear", I though ;again?'.

    When I first saw that line in the trailer I immediately thought they were making a reference to DIE ANOTHER DAY. :))
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Invisibility Tuxedo, just Bond's head floating through the world.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited February 2022 Posts: 4,585
    Who remembers the original concept art? That looked tremendous, and much of it (unfortunately) was not used. Apparently, there was going to be a "house" several hundred feet below ground. This was likely Blofeld's house: a lonely existence created with an illusion of "home." It looked fantastic.


    GBF wrote: »
    I really wonder how the writing process took place. Has the third act the way it was made always been their first choice? Or had there been a version in which they focused entirely on the crater base?

    I have no idea what happened. I think that they were obligated to have the bridge in it, because it had already been created on set. So that was a piece of furniture that had to be there. I know Mendes takes a lot of crap for this film, but he knew they were not ready to start filming, and yet he was forced into it. Everything about that third act seemed horribly forced and rushed through, without a whole lot of thought put into it. There were some very talented people working on this film and its script, and they fumbled it.

    The first 2/3 of the film are very good. The dialogue is crisp. There are some terrific one-liners. The pacing is good. And then... poof.

    The final act didn't need to go so awry. They had TSWLM as a pretty good template. My changes:

    1. Change C's role in that he's trying to get Nine Eyes passed through British parliament (not the international community)
    2. Move the helicopter fight to the conclusion (see #9)
    3. Change Blofeld's lair so that it is actually decoy. There is nothing there except some rooms, almost like a resort (as we see when Bond first arrives). Bond realizes it's a wild goose chase. Perhaps BOnd even quips something about "these damn desert hotels" in a nod to QoS. Blofeld meets them and then imprisons them and leaves via helicopter to deal with C.
    4. C is killed at the hands of Hinx for failing to get Nine Eyes approved. Spectre has to go to plan B: a terrorist attack.
    5. Bond and Madeliene escape in the Silver Wraith and eventually manage to get back to London
    6. Madeleine goes to the safe house
    7. Bond and MI6 must try to interrupt or diffuse the terrorist attack (would be kind of cool if this were at Stamford Bridge during a Chelsea match, but...)
    8. Bond learns that the safe house was not so safe: Madeleine is now gone. There is a live feed of her on video, strapped to a chair.
    9. Bond races to rescue Madeleine, sets her free, ends up on a chopper with Hinx and Blofeld (some details would need to be worked out here). Chopper fight ensures. Hinx is kicked out and dies, Bond flies the chopper into the bridge. Blofeld is injured and arrested. Done.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    When Bond said to Q "make me disappear", I though ;again?'.

    When I first saw that line in the trailer I immediately thought they were making a reference to DIE ANOTHER DAY. :))
    It took another film but Q finally succeeded in making Bond disappear.

    TripAces wrote: »
    Who remembers the original concept art? That looked tremendous, and much of it (unfortunately) was not used. Apparently, there was going to be a "house" several hundred feet below ground. This was likely Blofeld's house: a lonely existence created with an illusion of "home." It looked fantastic.
    I'll have to search for this, it sounds interesting.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited February 2022 Posts: 693
    The finale should have been a Die Hard-type scenario with Bond evading/fighting SPECTRE agents in their base, with the gas explosion being a ticking timebomb to add tension, not just a meaningless fireworks display after Bond and Madeline are already safe. Bond and Madeline escape just before the base goes up (maybe Bond does something clever to shield himself and Madeline from the blast). Blofeld and his entourage are escaping in their vehicles. Madeline and Bond gave chase in the chopper. Also, the filmmakers missed an opportunity for Bond to use the meteorite in some clever way, or at least as a visual gag. Like the base explodes and the meteor lands on one of Blofeld's cars or some Glen-type gag like that.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited February 2022 Posts: 7,547
    I liked the inclusion of the meteorite, and how the Spectre rings were made from it, and because of the reidite (rare element most commonly associated with meteorites), they were able to use toxicology reports to link deceased members of Spectre.

    Of course, the linking of previous villains to Spectre was a bad choice, but specifically how they did in this manner was a really cool idea.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    Yes, the meteorite scene and set really felt like they were going somewhere interesting.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited February 2022 Posts: 7,547
    There was room I think for a tiny bit of exposition by Q, to be confused about the reidite and tell Bond (or someone) it's "usually only found in... meteorites?" or something to that affect.

    Instead of previous villains, it could have been the people responsible for the international terrorist attacks, who were captured and promptly killed themselves. And Marco Sciarra, etc.

    Rewriting Spectre is fun.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    There was room I think for a tiny bit of exposition by Q, to be confused about the reidite and tell Bond (or someone) it's "usually only found in... meteorites?" or something to that affect.

    Instead of previous villains, it could have been the people responsible for the international terrorist attacks, who were captured and promptly killed themselves. And Marco Sciarra, etc.

    Rewriting Spectre is fun.

    Honestly! Rewriting SP is so much fun, because everything is right there. It just needed a linear, yet complex approach to put everything together.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,547
    Agreed.
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