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Do you believe in ghosts?

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  • patbpatb
    edited October 2016 Posts: 4,617
    Questioning our own personal experiences is very hard to do. We need to know that everything we see, hear etc is real and we need to trust ourselves to process and interpret our experiences. External research shows over and over again that humans are very fallible but, if we can't trust ourselves, then who can we trust.
    PS just watching a BBC doc about Bigfoot. You can swap Bigfoot for ghosts. All of the same things apply.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Even our memories are plagued by inaccuracy. As humans even our visions of ourselves and what we remember of the past aren't real in so many cases.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,229
    patb wrote: »
    Questioning our own personal experiences is very hard to do. We need to know that everything we see, hear etc is real and we need to trust ourselves to process and interpret our experiences. External research shows over and over again that humans are very fallible but, if we can't trust ourselves, then who can we trust.
    PS just watching a BBC doc about Bigfoot. You can swap Bigfoot for ghosts. All of the same things apply.
    patb wrote: »
    Questioning our own personal experiences is very hard to do. We need to know that everything we see, hear etc is real and we need to trust ourselves to process and interpret our experiences. External research shows over and over again that humans are very fallible but, if we can't trust ourselves, then who can we trust.
    PS just watching a BBC doc about Bigfoot. You can swap Bigfoot for ghosts. All of the same things apply.

    I'm not saying it is easy to do. I'm saying it must be done, especially if one makes such extraordinary claim.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,592
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote: »
    Even our memories are plagued by inaccuracy. As humans even our visions of ourselves and what we remember of the past aren't real in so many cases.
    Just look at Brian Williams.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    jake24 wrote: »
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote: »
    Even our memories are plagued by inaccuracy. As humans even our visions of ourselves and what we remember of the past aren't real in so many cases.
    Just look at Brian Williams.
    I'd say that case is more of white lying than anything.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    For all you sceptics out there I must remind you that there actually exists much footage of ghosts at work.................... Casper!

    As for my own experience. I'm too cynical in general but can only report what happened in a factual rather than emotional manner.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I don't doubt anyone's story, only the interpretation of what they think they've seen.
    It's known that as your eyes get tired, our peripheral vison closes. So if you suddenly
    move your eyes or head, you can see a blur, or shadow as your eyes quickly go back
    To "normal" mode.
    Magnetic fields can also affect people ( our homes are full of them ) also if there are
    underground streams or rivers ( many are unknown ) these can all effect, human moods,
    and sensations. A draught on your back has been proven to give a feeling of " being watched".
    All mundane explanations, not as romantic or exciting as the paranormal ones, but in my
    opinion, very sensible. Although, I guess there's no harm in wanting to believe in spirits etc,
    if it brings you some peace after an event.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Personally I remain open minded. I have little reason to doubt that many 'visitations' can be explained by simple natural/scientific phenomenon. Also deep rooted supersticions and fears also play a part. That said it doesn't explain my friends experience (three police officers stone sober in the middle of the day) or my own. I wasn't half asleep or otherwise, I had just got to bed. The only thing I can say if persons get their partner to sit on the edge of the bed with their back tight against the small of your own back while you are laid onyour side you will experience the same as I did. This doesn't account for the exact same experience my wife had while I was out at work - remember I hadn't told her about this so did not plant any seeds in her subconcious. It has never happened before or since.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Prepare to be ridiculed and called a liar or crazy or scared of your own shadow.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Very reasoned argument @Stag. :D
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Prepare to be ridiculed and called a liar or crazy or scared of your own shadow.

    By those who weren't there?

  • Risico007Risico007
    Posts: 9,860
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    I don't doubt anyone's story, only the interpretation of what they think they've seen.
    It's known that as your eyes get tired, our peripheral vison closes. So if you suddenly
    move your eyes or head, you can see a blur, or shadow as your eyes quickly go back
    To "normal" mode.
    Magnetic fields can also affect people ( our homes are full of them ) also if there are
    underground streams or rivers ( many are unknown ) these can all effect, human moods,
    and sensations. A draught on your back has been proven to give a feeling of " being watched".
    All mundane explanations, not as romantic or exciting as the paranormal ones, but in my
    opinion, very sensible. Although, I guess there's no harm in wanting to believe in spirits etc,
    if it brings you some peace after an event.

    so an underground stream turned the lights on and off at my step fathers house all night when no one was in the house.... Sure why not.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Could I use it as an excuse for speeding, " I was being chased by a horrible ghost, officer, and
    had to get away quickly " ........ "No problem, Sir . There's been reports of a lot of teenage ghosts
    hanging around the area. With their sheets hanging half way down their arse ! " ;)
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,617
    If people believe something to be true and the evidence strong enough, then they should have the back bone to fight their corner rather than complain about ridicule etc.
    Just look at the way Darwin was treated by many of his peers. (or Copernicus) Thank goodness he stuck to his guns rather than go away and hide. And lets be clear, the claim that ghosts exist is just as important to the human species (perhaps more) than Darwin's claims re evolution.
    There is a danger that the claim is trivialised by those who support it as the stories are so small/personal and, when evidence is captured, it is treated so lightly. It seems to be the non-beleivers who fully realise the gravitas/implications of the issue.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SirHilaryBray wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SirHilaryBray wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    SirHilaryBray wrote: »
    100% exist. I used to laugh at people. I am a sound engineer by trade, and my friend who attempted to create his own "Ghost Hunting" show asked me for some advise on Sound. So I assisted him in what gear to buy etc. by way of thank you he invited me to a "haunt". He got this email from a woman who said her 6 year old son had died 3 years earlier, and since she could still hear him giggle from the bedroom and that she would come down in the morning and the chairs at the breakfast table would be moved around.

    So we go out there and meet this woman, perfectly sane, lovely woman. I set up the new audio equipment for my friend and we go to what was the little boys bedroom. As many parents do, the mother had kept it just as it was left.



    They attempt an EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recording now remember I am a sceptic and I have the recording equipment. My friend asks 3 questions "is there any one here?" "are you male or female?" "What is your favourite item in this room?"

    We play back the recording
    "is there any one here?" Nothing
    "are you male or female?" As clear as day "Boy"
    "What is your favourite item in this room?" "Giraffe"

    At this point the Mother starts sobbing and we are looking around. She gets up walks to the back of the room to a cupboard, opens the door and pulls out a stuffed toy Giraffe and says there were two in a set, one was buried with him.

    I freaked out and went home.

    Link to the sound files please?
    Any CCTV set up for the moving chairs at the breakfast table?

    PS when the police carry out a PACE interview (formally under caution), two copies are made, one of the recordings is sealed and can only be opened by the instruction of the court. This is to ensure that the recording has not been altered/tampered with in any way. These are the standards of evidence that the UK judicial system expects when producing evidence for every case (from a murder to a minor offence) and rightly so. (plus the equipment plays over a time/date track to also ensure all is correct). And this is simply to record what one human has said. If we are to review evidence of ghosts (an extraordinary claim), we have every right to expect evidence of an equal or higher level PLUS those who are collecting evidence and trying to convince the rest of the World have a duty to have high evidential standards if they want to convince third parties.

    Pat this over 10 years ago. No way I can get all this now. As I said I recommended the audio equipment. He paid I purchased, it was me who took the mic and HD recorded out of its box and it was me operating it at the time. It was a brand new device 1st time in use. Interesting you mention the police. This happened weeks ago




    Officers filed reports. Crazy to risk looking stupid and losing their jobs if they are part of a conspiracy.

    Well that's a bummer since you had proof of the supernatural. 10 years and it is lost.

    The other thing is even if your claim was true (and I don't doubt your sincerity neither the one of other witnesses) we would still be perfectly justified disbelieving it due to very unreliable evidence.

    All I did was share a story trying to convince no one. Honestly don't care if you believe it or not. I was there. It changed my views.

    You share this experience in this forum so expect it to be scrutinised and your claims questioned.

    And I'll say something controversial: given the rather unreliable and equivocal nature of the claimed haunting you had no reason to change your views. In fact you could have and maybe should have questioned the things you perceived instead of jumping to the conclusion that it was a supernatural manifestation.

    It's always you though Ludovico unless it comes from your mouth, it must be a lie "prove it prove it prove it". The new of the topic is Do you believe in ghosts?, I said yes, I did not used to, but I explained why I did now.

    You then gave me a list of evidence you wish to see from an incident 10 years ago, look if you don't believe me that's fine but to ask me for some stuff to back it up is a load of nonsense. My post was not to convince you or anyone I have to prove nothing. Trying getting a life mate.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SirHilaryBray wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SirHilaryBray wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    SirHilaryBray wrote: »
    100% exist. I used to laugh at people. I am a sound engineer by trade, and my friend who attempted to create his own "Ghost Hunting" show asked me for some advise on Sound. So I assisted him in what gear to buy etc. by way of thank you he invited me to a "haunt". He got this email from a woman who said her 6 year old son had died 3 years earlier, and since she could still hear him giggle from the bedroom and that she would come down in the morning and the chairs at the breakfast table would be moved around.

    So we go out there and meet this woman, perfectly sane, lovely woman. I set up the new audio equipment for my friend and we go to what was the little boys bedroom. As many parents do, the mother had kept it just as it was left.



    They attempt an EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recording now remember I am a sceptic and I have the recording equipment. My friend asks 3 questions "is there any one here?" "are you male or female?" "What is your favourite item in this room?"

    We play back the recording
    "is there any one here?" Nothing
    "are you male or female?" As clear as day "Boy"
    "What is your favourite item in this room?" "Giraffe"

    At this point the Mother starts sobbing and we are looking around. She gets up walks to the back of the room to a cupboard, opens the door and pulls out a stuffed toy Giraffe and says there were two in a set, one was buried with him.

    I freaked out and went home.

    Link to the sound files please?
    Any CCTV set up for the moving chairs at the breakfast table?

    PS when the police carry out a PACE interview (formally under caution), two copies are made, one of the recordings is sealed and can only be opened by the instruction of the court. This is to ensure that the recording has not been altered/tampered with in any way. These are the standards of evidence that the UK judicial system expects when producing evidence for every case (from a murder to a minor offence) and rightly so. (plus the equipment plays over a time/date track to also ensure all is correct). And this is simply to record what one human has said. If we are to review evidence of ghosts (an extraordinary claim), we have every right to expect evidence of an equal or higher level PLUS those who are collecting evidence and trying to convince the rest of the World have a duty to have high evidential standards if they want to convince third parties.

    Pat this over 10 years ago. No way I can get all this now. As I said I recommended the audio equipment. He paid I purchased, it was me who took the mic and HD recorded out of its box and it was me operating it at the time. It was a brand new device 1st time in use. Interesting you mention the police. This happened weeks ago




    Officers filed reports. Crazy to risk looking stupid and losing their jobs if they are part of a conspiracy.

    Well that's a bummer since you had proof of the supernatural. 10 years and it is lost.

    The other thing is even if your claim was true (and I don't doubt your sincerity neither the one of other witnesses) we would still be perfectly justified disbelieving it due to very unreliable evidence.

    All I did was share a story trying to convince no one. Honestly don't care if you believe it or not. I was there. It changed my views.

    You share this experience in this forum so expect it to be scrutinised and your claims questioned.

    And I'll say something controversial: given the rather unreliable and equivocal nature of the claimed haunting you had no reason to change your views. In fact you could have and maybe should have questioned the things you perceived instead of jumping to the conclusion that it was a supernatural manifestation.

    It's always you though Ludovico unless it comes from your mouth, it must be a lie "prove it prove it prove it". The new of the topic is Do you believe in ghosts?, I said yes, I did not used to, but I explained why I did now.

    You then gave me a list of evidence you wish to see from an incident 10 years ago, look if you don't believe me that's fine but to ask me for some stuff to back it up is a load of nonsense. My post was not to convince you or anyone I have to prove nothing. Trying getting a life mate.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I find it simply very disappointing that in the 21st century, some people
    still choose to believe in superstition and ghosts. We may as well pay
    for witch doctors to work on the NHS. If a person dies who has had a
    few organs replaced, would he come back as one ghost or several ? ;)
    And if as a living donor, the recipient died, could you haunt yourself ?
  • patbpatb
    edited October 2016 Posts: 4,617
    Only in these areas is the request to "prove it" seen as some how unreasonable and upsetting. Our everyday society/culture is built on the value of evidence and the requirement for proof to exist in some form in order for it to be respected and regarded as real and reliable
    .
    I have seen this so many times (especially in religeous debate) where "matters of faith" seem to have a "get out of jail free card" and words such as "evidence" and "proof" are discarded as belief and faith seem to become the only form of proof needed.

    Imagine getting onto an airliner and asking the captain if it was safe:

    "Well, we had some tests done 10 years ago but we lost the results, but, honeslty, dont you trust me? If I say its safe, isnt that good enough?. Are you calling me a lier? I get so fed up with these requests to prove it, just have faith in the aircraft and get onboard."

    Would the pilot be respected? We all know the answer. And I would ask those who believe in ghosts - would you get on that plane? would you believe the captain? Or would you find another aircraft where the evidence was a mile high?

    We all know that faith and belief or the wish thinking that the aircraft will fly will not keep it in the air. Its physics and the scientific process that keeps it flying.

    I could make exactly the same example for drugs that patients receive in hospital.

  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    Could I use it as an excuse for speeding, " I was being chased by a horrible ghost, officer, and
    had to get away quickly " ........ "No problem, Sir . There's been reports of a lot of teenage ghosts
    hanging around the area. With their sheets hanging half way down their arse ! " ;)

    That would have worked with me! ;)
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    :))
  • Risico007Risico007
    Posts: 9,860
    Again no One has given me an explanation how did the lights turned on and off
  • patbpatb
    edited October 2016 Posts: 4,617
    no one has to provide an explanation.....in the same way that science cant provide an explanation for the start of the universe. It's OK not to know stuff. The thread is about ghosts so if you have any evidence that it was a ghost flicking the lights on and off, then we would all be interested...but to make the jump between ghosts and lights going on and off is exactly what many of us have been pointing out...a rush to believe and attribute unusual events to ghosts where there is zero evidence.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Outages and electric shorts are always caused by ghosts though, right?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I have noticed now in these dark nights. While out walking the dog. Many
    Street lights appear to go on and off for no reason ? At first I was thinking
    This might have been a technical fault, like a loose connection ........ But now ?
    Am I walking with ghosts ? I wonder what they're trying to tell me, ... Apart from
    Take the dog out earlier. :D
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    Only in these areas is the request to "prove it" seen as some how unreasonable and upsetting. Our everyday society/culture is built on the value of evidence and the requirement for proof to exist in some form in order for it to be respected and regarded as real and reliable
    .
    I have seen this so many times (especially in religeous debate) where "matters of faith" seem to have a "get out of jail free card" and words such as "evidence" and "proof" are discarded as belief and faith seem to become the only form of proof needed.

    Imagine getting onto an airliner and asking the captain if it was safe:

    "Well, we had some tests done 10 years ago but we lost the results, but, honeslty, dont you trust me? If I say its safe, isnt that good enough?. Are you calling me a lier? I get so fed up with these requests to prove it, just have faith in the aircraft and get onboard."

    Would the pilot be respected? We all know the answer. And I would ask those who believe in ghosts - would you get on that plane? would you believe the captain? Or would you find another aircraft where the evidence was a mile high?

    We all know that faith and belief or the wish thinking that the aircraft will fly will not keep it in the air. Its physics and the scientific process that keeps it flying.

    I could make exactly the same example for drugs that patients receive in hospital.

    Precisely.

    You would think that the more preposterous the claim - ghosts, God, UFOs, whatever - people would need more evidence but it's just the opposite. The more ridiculous the hypothesis, the less evidence some people need to go all in and believe it to be true.
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Again no One has given me an explanation how did the lights turned on and off

    Are we still doing this? Why don't you give us a reason why it must follow that the lights going on and off inexplicably has to be the work of ghosts? You're saying that there is literally no other conceivable way the lights could go on and off? Why, from this pitiful scrap of evidence of the lights going on and off that your entire reasoning hangs on, must it be ghosts? Why not God f**king with you? Why not the light fairy?

    It really is terrifying that people with such a thin grasp of logic are allowed to do things such as hold positions such as doctor or teacher or vote for clowns like The Donald. Are we living in the Middle Ages? Did the the enlightenment never happen?
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,617
    I hope, if I come back as a ghost, I will be able to think up something more interesting to do than switch the lights on and off or move kitchen chairs about. Their existence must be pretty mundane. Can you imagine the amazing things they could do? Move the crown jewels? Haunt sceptics in an attempt to convince the World? Appear on a live TV show? no

    on...off......on....off.....on....off....on....off.....on.......off.......
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @patb, with enough "energy," you should be able to slam doors, move chairs around, knock glasses off tables, switch the TV on and off, whip the sheets off people's beds, etc

    It would be fun to haunt a person with obsessive compulsive disorder. Imagine the disorder we could create in their lives. >:)
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,584
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Are we still doing this? Why don't you give us a reason why it must follow that the lights going on and off inexplicably has to be the work of ghosts? You're saying that there is literally no other conceivable way the lights could go on and off? Why, from this pitiful scrap of evidence of the lights going on and off that your entire reasoning hangs on, must it be ghosts? Why not God f**king with you? Why not the light fairy?

    I would like to chip in here. I had an incident where my lights were going on and off without any noticeable interference.
    I called an electrician in, and now they don't do it anymore.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited October 2016 Posts: 28,694
    NicNac wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Are we still doing this? Why don't you give us a reason why it must follow that the lights going on and off inexplicably has to be the work of ghosts? You're saying that there is literally no other conceivable way the lights could go on and off? Why, from this pitiful scrap of evidence of the lights going on and off that your entire reasoning hangs on, must it be ghosts? Why not God f**king with you? Why not the light fairy?

    I would like to chip in here. I had an incident where my lights were going on and off without any noticeable interference.
    I called an electrician in, and now they don't do it anymore.

    @NicNac, that's only because the ghosts that were switching your lights on and off decided to stop haunting your home the day the electrician came. Obviously.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    :))
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