Do you believe in ghosts?

NicNac

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote: »

NicNac wrote: »

TheWizardOfIce wrote: »

Are we still doing this? Why don't you give us a reason why it must follow that the lights going on and off inexplicably has to be the work of ghosts? You're saying that there is literally no other conceivable way the lights could go on and off? Why, from this pitiful scrap of evidence of the lights going on and off that your entire reasoning hangs on, must it be ghosts? Why not God f**king with you? Why not the light fairy?

I would like to chip in here. I had an incident where my lights were going on and off without any noticeable interference.
I called an electrician in, and now they don't do it anymore.

@NicNac, that's only because the ghosts that were switching your lights on and off decided to stop haunting your home the day the electrician came. Obviously.

I don't think so Brady. Here is my electrician.

And he sorted out my faulty lights. So, I think you're wrong Mr Smarty Pants.

Ludovico

SirHilaryBray wrote: »

Ludovico wrote: »

SirHilaryBray wrote: »

Ludovico wrote: »

SirHilaryBray wrote: »

patb wrote: »

SirHilaryBray wrote: »

100% exist. I used to laugh at people. I am a sound engineer by trade, and my friend who attempted to create his own "Ghost Hunting" show asked me for some advise on Sound. So I assisted him in what gear to buy etc. by way of thank you he invited me to a "haunt". He got this email from a woman who said her 6 year old son had died 3 years earlier, and since she could still hear him giggle from the bedroom and that she would come down in the morning and the chairs at the breakfast table would be moved around.

So we go out there and meet this woman, perfectly sane, lovely woman. I set up the new audio equipment for my friend and we go to what was the little boys bedroom. As many parents do, the mother had kept it just as it was left.



They attempt an EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recording now remember I am a sceptic and I have the recording equipment. My friend asks 3 questions "is there any one here?" "are you male or female?" "What is your favourite item in this room?"

We play back the recording
"is there any one here?" Nothing
"are you male or female?" As clear as day "Boy"
"What is your favourite item in this room?" "Giraffe"

At this point the Mother starts sobbing and we are looking around. She gets up walks to the back of the room to a cupboard, opens the door and pulls out a stuffed toy Giraffe and says there were two in a set, one was buried with him.

I freaked out and went home.

Link to the sound files please?
Any CCTV set up for the moving chairs at the breakfast table?

PS when the police carry out a PACE interview (formally under caution), two copies are made, one of the recordings is sealed and can only be opened by the instruction of the court. This is to ensure that the recording has not been altered/tampered with in any way. These are the standards of evidence that the UK judicial system expects when producing evidence for every case (from a murder to a minor offence) and rightly so. (plus the equipment plays over a time/date track to also ensure all is correct). And this is simply to record what one human has said. If we are to review evidence of ghosts (an extraordinary claim), we have every right to expect evidence of an equal or higher level PLUS those who are collecting evidence and trying to convince the rest of the World have a duty to have high evidential standards if they want to convince third parties.

Pat this over 10 years ago. No way I can get all this now. As I said I recommended the audio equipment. He paid I purchased, it was me who took the mic and HD recorded out of its box and it was me operating it at the time. It was a brand new device 1st time in use. Interesting you mention the police. This happened weeks ago




Officers filed reports. Crazy to risk looking stupid and losing their jobs if they are part of a conspiracy.

Well that's a bummer since you had proof of the supernatural. 10 years and it is lost.

The other thing is even if your claim was true (and I don't doubt your sincerity neither the one of other witnesses) we would still be perfectly justified disbelieving it due to very unreliable evidence.

All I did was share a story trying to convince no one. Honestly don't care if you believe it or not. I was there. It changed my views.

You share this experience in this forum so expect it to be scrutinised and your claims questioned.

And I'll say something controversial: given the rather unreliable and equivocal nature of the claimed haunting you had no reason to change your views. In fact you could have and maybe should have questioned the things you perceived instead of jumping to the conclusion that it was a supernatural manifestation.

It's always you though Ludovico unless it comes from your mouth, it must be a lie "prove it prove it prove it". The new of the topic is Do you believe in ghosts?, I said yes, I did not used to, but I explained why I did now.

You then gave me a list of evidence you wish to see from an incident 10 years ago, look if you don't believe me that's fine but to ask me for some stuff to back it up is a load of nonsense. My post was not to convince you or anyone I have to prove nothing. Trying getting a life mate.

I never said you were a liar in fact I never questioned your sincerity. I said that your belief in ghosts was unsupported.

SirHilaryBray

Ludovico wrote: »

SirHilaryBray wrote: »

Ludovico wrote: »

SirHilaryBray wrote: »

Ludovico wrote: »

SirHilaryBray wrote: »

patb wrote: »

SirHilaryBray wrote: »

100% exist. I used to laugh at people. I am a sound engineer by trade, and my friend who attempted to create his own "Ghost Hunting" show asked me for some advise on Sound. So I assisted him in what gear to buy etc. by way of thank you he invited me to a "haunt". He got this email from a woman who said her 6 year old son had died 3 years earlier, and since she could still hear him giggle from the bedroom and that she would come down in the morning and the chairs at the breakfast table would be moved around.

So we go out there and meet this woman, perfectly sane, lovely woman. I set up the new audio equipment for my friend and we go to what was the little boys bedroom. As many parents do, the mother had kept it just as it was left.



They attempt an EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recording now remember I am a sceptic and I have the recording equipment. My friend asks 3 questions "is there any one here?" "are you male or female?" "What is your favourite item in this room?"

We play back the recording
"is there any one here?" Nothing
"are you male or female?" As clear as day "Boy"
"What is your favourite item in this room?" "Giraffe"

At this point the Mother starts sobbing and we are looking around. She gets up walks to the back of the room to a cupboard, opens the door and pulls out a stuffed toy Giraffe and says there were two in a set, one was buried with him.

I freaked out and went home.

Link to the sound files please?
Any CCTV set up for the moving chairs at the breakfast table?

PS when the police carry out a PACE interview (formally under caution), two copies are made, one of the recordings is sealed and can only be opened by the instruction of the court. This is to ensure that the recording has not been altered/tampered with in any way. These are the standards of evidence that the UK judicial system expects when producing evidence for every case (from a murder to a minor offence) and rightly so. (plus the equipment plays over a time/date track to also ensure all is correct). And this is simply to record what one human has said. If we are to review evidence of ghosts (an extraordinary claim), we have every right to expect evidence of an equal or higher level PLUS those who are collecting evidence and trying to convince the rest of the World have a duty to have high evidential standards if they want to convince third parties.

Pat this over 10 years ago. No way I can get all this now. As I said I recommended the audio equipment. He paid I purchased, it was me who took the mic and HD recorded out of its box and it was me operating it at the time. It was a brand new device 1st time in use. Interesting you mention the police. This happened weeks ago




Officers filed reports. Crazy to risk looking stupid and losing their jobs if they are part of a conspiracy.

Well that's a bummer since you had proof of the supernatural. 10 years and it is lost.

The other thing is even if your claim was true (and I don't doubt your sincerity neither the one of other witnesses) we would still be perfectly justified disbelieving it due to very unreliable evidence.

All I did was share a story trying to convince no one. Honestly don't care if you believe it or not. I was there. It changed my views.

You share this experience in this forum so expect it to be scrutinised and your claims questioned.

And I'll say something controversial: given the rather unreliable and equivocal nature of the claimed haunting you had no reason to change your views. In fact you could have and maybe should have questioned the things you perceived instead of jumping to the conclusion that it was a supernatural manifestation.

It's always you though Ludovico unless it comes from your mouth, it must be a lie "prove it prove it prove it". The new of the topic is Do you believe in ghosts?, I said yes, I did not used to, but I explained why I did now.

You then gave me a list of evidence you wish to see from an incident 10 years ago, look if you don't believe me that's fine but to ask me for some stuff to back it up is a load of nonsense. My post was not to convince you or anyone I have to prove nothing. Trying getting a life mate.

I never said you were a liar in fact I never questioned your sincerity. I said that your belief in ghosts was unsupported.

unsupported to who, what are you not grasping. It supported to me, what I now believe. Once again I was attempting to convince no-one, if I was you would have a point. Baffling mate, seriously.

patb

thinking you have seen a ghost and seeing a ghost are two very different things and strike at the heart of this discussion. The fact that they are different things means that we need supporting evidence to turn one into another.

tanaka123

My hour is almost come,
When I to sulphurous and tormenting flames
Must render up myself.

Ludovico

patb wrote: »

thinking you have seen a ghost and seeing a ghost are two very different things and strike at the heart of this discussion. The fact that they are different things means that we need supporting evidence to turn one into another.

Exactly. Beside @SirHilaryBray told his story in this forum... Obviously we'll discuss it.

Thunderpussy

Alas, poor ghost! ;)

Risico007

Thought

TheWizardOfIce

Risico007 wrote: »

Thought

Yep can't argue with that. None of those could be tricks of the light or hoaxes. Therefore the only possible answer is they must be ghosts. It's surprising these clips haven't been on the news given they are such definitive proof.


'You wouldn't think this place could be haunted but Chris Puckett who owns the lot explains that the business often stores cars that have been involved in horrific traffic accidents. This led people to speculate that the aparition was of a woman who was involved in a fatal car crash just weeks earlier and whose mangled car had been stored at the lot.....
...After seeing the footage on the news even her family came forward convinced that the aparition was Tracy saying it would be typical of her to come back and let them know she was ok.'

It's just embarassing.

Why wouldn't this be the type of place that could be haunted? Is there a manual somewhere that states only churches, country houses and inns can be haunted?

Good old Tracy. She always was the sort of person who would communicate to you that her untimely death at the age of 33, leaving her twins orphaned, was not a big deal. And what better way to get that message across than by walking round in circles in a wrecked car lot?

Thunderpussy

Some more thoughts.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

@TheWizardOfIce, it's in moments like these, despite our past differences here and there, that I am emphatically glad you're around. You have me in stitches daily now with post like the above. The one you made a few days ago featuring the charcoal briquettes was another side-splitter.

Mrcoggins

Hear hear well done that Wiz .

Thunderfinger

stag wrote: »

Thunderfinger wrote: »

Prepare to be ridiculed and called a liar or crazy or scared of your own shadow.

By those who weren't there?

Yes, some of them. The simpletons.

Thunderpussy

Once again I have to bow to that Hillbilly science. Tip top investigation methods
Hailed as a great leap forward in paranormal " looking at stuff on the internet box "
" All the proof I need" said Doctor Professor Billy Bob Benedicts. Head of paranormal
Sciences, elementary drawing and Mullet grooming of the third level. Incorporating
Vin Diesel studies :))

Risico007

Sadly what was the intention of the original poster of an interesting thought provoking and respectful conversation about belief and faith where perhaps the believers become a bit more skeptical and the skeptics become a bit more intrigued has now become a dick measuring contest... well for the skeptics anyways measuring who can be the biggest dick to believers leaving most believers annoyed and not wanting to share personal experiences so I figure the only way to end this farce of an intellectual conversation is to end it in the most pretensions way possible


Dragonpool it is All quiet on the western front i repeat all quiet on the western front

Comte_de_Bleuchamp

Risico007 wrote: »

Sadly what was the intention of the original poster of an interesting thought provoking and respectful conversation about belief and faith where perhaps the believers become a bit more skeptical and the skeptics become a bit more intrigued has now become a dick measuring contest... well for the skeptics anyways measuring who can be the biggest dick to believers leaving most believers annoyed and not wanting to share personal experiences so I figure the only way to end this farce of an intellectual conversation is to end it in the most pretensions way possible


Dragonpool it is All quiet on the western front i repeat all quiet on the western front

So you have nothing to say to the responses you were given? The Wizard in particular gave two lengthy and well thought out rebuttals and all you have to say is that he's being mean so you're leaving? That's not just childish, it's rude, and exemplifies why these debates are a waste of time. When one does not require evidence (and by that I mean evidence which stands up to a modicum of scrutiny) to believe, there is simply no argument to be had.

patb

The concept of respect is interesting as it is used many times (normally by believers) that these beliefs are automatically deemed worthy of respect and when no such respect is received, the toys are thrown from the pram. My own perspective is that respect is earnt rather than rewarded as default. Darwin gained respect not for the idea but for the effort put in to collect the evidence and for the quality of that evidence. Does anyone want to award someone respect by default for claiming that some pigs can fly or they have an invisible dragon in their garage? These claims are laughable and should be laughed at. To give them respect is to give the impression that they are worthy of respect but IMHO they have not reached that point yet. Obviously, there are still limits and we should remain adult about it as these are serious claims in terms of the ramifications they have.
Sam Harris explains this far better than myself in a 30 second example at 2.30



Can you imagine what kind of World we would be living in today if these types of stories were nipped in the bud at the earliest opportunity rather than willingly past on by enthusiasts until they reach critical mass and become embedded within our culture. Imagine the time we could have saved ourselves, imagine the progress we could have made and imagine the lives that could have been saved.

TheWizardOfIce

Risico007 wrote: »

Sadly what was the intention of the original poster of an interesting thought provoking and respectful conversation about belief and faith where perhaps the believers become a bit more skeptical and the skeptics become a bit more intrigued has now become a dick measuring contest... well for the skeptics anyways measuring who can be the biggest dick to believers leaving most believers annoyed and not wanting to share personal experiences so I figure the only way to end this farce of an intellectual conversation is to end it in the most pretensions way possible

Being a scientist I'm happy for you to provide some evidence that will change my mind because the implications of ghosts being real would be staggering.

But in 11 pages of this sorry thread the 'believers' have only been able to bring to the table the same thing over and over again: anecdotes that such and such happened or feeble CCTV footage that can easily be explained away as a hoax or trick of the light.

And that's all you've got.

So I'm rather confused why you're bleating about not getting the requisite respect from non believers when you are bringing absolutey nothing that is close to standing up in court to the table.

At least meet us half way mate.

If we're talking about dick measuring I assume you are the person who clicks on those spam e-mails and enters his credit card details for them to empty your account because after all they claim it works so it must be true mustn't it?

Why don't you try replicating this - just be careful you don't drown as Thames currents are pretty vicious:



I can't explain precisely how he did this (although I have a couple of ideas) so therefore I am compelled by the logical leap that the ghost believer constantly makes with these clips of video footage that it must be real.

Even though the guy is a professional magician (so there's a slight chance it could be a trick!) if you're a believer in people being able to walk on water there is simply no possible explanation left except that he is breaking the laws of physics and actually doing it.

patb

This trick's really old, around 2000 years old.
(perpex just under the surface, one of the planks is knocked away to make space for the canoists and that fits in with the fact that he is "collected" by the boat rather than make the return trip which was not possible after the canoes had passed.....
either that or he is the son of God?
It's good to be open minded. (if he had crossed to the other side, that would have been impressive)

Ludovico

I think some people here are upset because they are forced to reconsider their confirmation bias. The world must be far less exciting without ghosts but I'd rather believe true things that false ones.

TripAces

I once stayed in a house that was considered haunted. The groundskeeper joked that weird stuff went on there all the time. He was right. I heard laughter IN the house when there was nobody else there. I felt someone/something brush up against me. TVs would turn on/off by themselves. I am not lying.

BUT...

I don't believe in the the afterlife, don't believe in spirits per se. So I won't say what I experienced was a "ghost." I just don't know what it was.

I think Shakespeare had it right: "There is more to heaven and earth than is dreamt up in our philosophy."

We don't exactly know everything. And perhaps we never will.

Thunderpussy

I believe everyone's stories, in that they have seen or felt something unusual , it's
only the assumption of what caused the effect which is being debated. ;)
One possible explanation could be that many old houses have old and
dodgy electrical wiring ? Causing a few odd problems, which mixed with
a "haunted" reputation ...... can lead people to think of "paranormal event"
Thinking you've heard your name etc, is very common .

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

There's also the effect that is had on someone unconsciously when they're being told that the home or area there are going in to has a "haunted" history. In that moment you are already setting up the expectation that you may be encountering "spooky" things based only on the scary stories of others, and the stories you've been told make your senses amplify every creak of the floorboards or gust of wind because of that; you expect an encounter, and your brain makes it so. Our minds play devilish tricks on us, and the environment in which we navigate may contain forces (like electro-magnetic fields) that screw with us and our perceptions of what we think we see and feel all the time.

It's not an accident that electro-magnetic fields are most powerful in areas where so-called instances of the paranormal occur, and where certain levels of currents that are unable to be perceived by us can induce feelings that someone is watching us, that we are seeing things out of this world, and that bring on sensations like headaches, anxiety, suicide and depression, nausea, fatigue and loss of libido.

The article linked below uses actual science to explain the effect that waves in high electromagnetic environments can have on us, and back up with reasoning exactly why people will say they see or feel something or someone in a "ghost encounter," including seeing shapes, feeling watched, experiencing a sense of despair and anger, fatigue and low energy, etc. There's nothing in these kinds of reports backed up by study that doesn't have a basis in scientific reasoning that is supported by what we know of our world and how it works:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/afterlife/ghost3.htm


As @Ludovico said, it is no doubt less interesting to imagine living in a world without ghosts and an afterlife, but like it has before, science and the study of how humanity is susceptible psychologically and physiologically to what is in their environment proves that these things are nothing more than fantasies with no basis in fact.

As with most of the posters in here, I favor putting my faith in what is real, as that is where the real meaning of life exists, and not in the pursuit of "another side" or a "God."

Thunderfinger

Some of the believers here are clearly delusional, and all of the disbelievers.

Thunderpussy

Delusional like a fox ! :))

Thunderfinger

The US govt. has spent five trillion Chinese dollars on the war against ghosts now, so I guess they are history?

Thunderpussy

But they still feel in High Spirits.

Thunderfinger

You are the ghost of the future. Your great grand children will ridicule your very existence.

Thunderpussy

Some shocking new footage ! I dare anyone to discount this evidence.

Thunderfinger

Wow, if that isn t proof that the afterlife is bogus, I don t know what is. Nobel prize next.