Should there be a 2 hour limit on Bond movie runtimes?

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  • RC7RC7
    edited May 2017 Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    Explain.

    Good pacing is a skill, just like any other aspect of cinema. The fact that Skyfall resonated in spite of its bad pacing says nothing of its importance. GoldenEye resonated in spite of it's poor (some say) score, but does that mean that a films score is irrelevant to the quality of the overall product? No.

    I'm still waiting for the correlation between run time and quality/success.

    You're making the assertion, not me. I'm still waiting for the proof that pacing is meaningless.

    You're not even reading what I've written. I said the 'run time' is meaningless. The length of the film is dictated by pacing [ie. it isn't a set thing - it can be well paced and 1hr 30min, or 2hr 30min].I repeat again, so you get it this time, there is no correlation between run time and quality.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2017 Posts: 8,401
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    Explain.

    Good pacing is a skill, just like any other aspect of cinema. The fact that Skyfall resonated in spite of its bad pacing says nothing of its importance. GoldenEye resonated in spite of it's poor (some say) score, but does that mean that a films score is irrelevant to the quality of the overall product? No.

    I'm still waiting for the correlation between run time and quality/success.

    You're making the assertion, not me. I'm still waiting for the proof that pacing is meaningless.

    You're not even reading what I've written. I said the 'run time' is meaningless. The length of the film is dictated by pacing [ie. it isn't a set thing - it can be well paced and 1hr 30min, or 2hr 30min].I repeat again, so you get it this time, there is no correlation between run time and quality.

    Restating your premise doesn't add to it's validity. Where is your evidence? So far we've got "Skyfall made a billion". Is that the whole thing, or is there more? Take your time.
  • edited May 2017 Posts: 676
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    TWINE's issue was focus - not length.

    It arguably had enough ideas to be longer movie. But it needed to decide whether it wanted to a comedy or a gritty action film.
    I'm pretty sure TWINE's Bond was afflicted with a curse that forces him to speak 80% of his dialogue in cheesy one-liners.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    Explain.

    Good pacing is a skill, just like any other aspect of cinema. The fact that Skyfall resonated in spite of its bad pacing says nothing of its importance. GoldenEye resonated in spite of it's poor (some say) score, but does that mean that a films score is irrelevant to the quality of the overall product? No.

    I'm still waiting for the correlation between run time and quality/success.

    You're making the assertion, not me. I'm still waiting for the proof that pacing is meaningless.

    You're not even reading what I've written. I said the 'run time' is meaningless. The length of the film is dictated by pacing [ie. it isn't a set thing - it can be well paced and 1hr 30min, or 2hr 30min].I repeat again, so you get it this time, there is no correlation between run time and quality.

    Restating your premise doesn't add to it's validity. Where is your evidence? So far we've got "Skyfall made a billion". Is that the whole thing, or is there more? Take your time.

    My point is that it's irrelevant whether the run time is [conparatively] short or long. On the one hand you have OHMSS - quality and lengthy duration. On the other, DAD - lacking in quality and a lengthy duration. Likewise you have GF - quality and comparatively short duration. On the other side, QoS - lacking in quality and a short duration. You can mix and match as you wish, but none of it points to there being a benefit from keeping a limit on run time.

    Capping the run time achieves nothing. The cut is poured over by many people and will be decided upon organically. They're not making a bottle of ketchup with a specific volume of liquid. It's a film.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,401
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    Explain.

    Good pacing is a skill, just like any other aspect of cinema. The fact that Skyfall resonated in spite of its bad pacing says nothing of its importance. GoldenEye resonated in spite of it's poor (some say) score, but does that mean that a films score is irrelevant to the quality of the overall product? No.

    I'm still waiting for the correlation between run time and quality/success.

    You're making the assertion, not me. I'm still waiting for the proof that pacing is meaningless.

    You're not even reading what I've written. I said the 'run time' is meaningless. The length of the film is dictated by pacing [ie. it isn't a set thing - it can be well paced and 1hr 30min, or 2hr 30min].I repeat again, so you get it this time, there is no correlation between run time and quality.

    Restating your premise doesn't add to it's validity. Where is your evidence? So far we've got "Skyfall made a billion". Is that the whole thing, or is there more? Take your time.

    My point is that it's irrelevant whether the run time is [conparatively] short or long. On the one hand you have OHMSS - quality and lengthy duration. On the other, DAD - lacking in quality and a lengthy duration. Likewise you have GF - quality and comparatively short duration. On the other side, QoS - lacking in quality and a short duration. You can mix and match as you wish, but none of it points to there being a benefit from keeping a limit on run time.

    Capping the run time achieves nothing. The cut is poured over by many people and will be decided upon organically. They're not making a bottle of ketchup with a specific volume of liquid. It's a film.

    I understand that, but the Bond films are going upward in length regardless of the story they are telling. Out of 24 films, only 8 have a runtime under 125 minutes and of those 8, 6 were released before 1974. The fact is, a longer run time lends itself to weightier storytelling. The Bonds films, while a cultural monolith, are still just spy stories at the end of the day. The Fleming Stories themselves are slim volumes designed to be able to pick up and read on a long flight. I don't see what we are gaining from the continued upward climb of these stories run time.

    Bond films should be entertaining, gripping, exhilarating etc. And the longer you make your film, the harder that becomes to maintain. When they first started making Bond films, they only had the money to shoot the scenes that were absolutely necessarily. If you look at Dr No, he's straight onto his mission in the first 10 minutes. Now compare that to Casino, Skyfall and Spectre, and the difference is stark. Usually there's about 40 minutes of various chats and preamble before we actually start the major beats in motion.

    You say that runtime is irrelevant, but I think if you were to chop these films down to 2 hrs each, it would help create a more satisfying experience overall, and save a lot of money. I'm constantly told that the Sinking house sequence at the end of Casino was 100% essential because you can't expect a modern audience to sit through 2hrs 20 without a big climax at the end, but what if the whole film was tightened up? Perhaps if it had moved along quicker, people might have been able to stomach the quiet, sad suicide at the end and there would be no need for an extra set piece to finish things off?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    It wouldn't be the MI6 community if we weren't bumping old threads just to answer the same questions the exact way we did months ago.
  • Posts: 463
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    Explain.

    Good pacing is a skill, just like any other aspect of cinema. The fact that Skyfall resonated in spite of its bad pacing says nothing of its importance. GoldenEye resonated in spite of it's poor (some say) score, but does that mean that a films score is irrelevant to the quality of the overall product? No.

    I'm still waiting for the correlation between run time and quality/success.

    You're making the assertion, not me. I'm still waiting for the proof that pacing is meaningless.

    You're not even reading what I've written. I said the 'run time' is meaningless. The length of the film is dictated by pacing [ie. it isn't a set thing - it can be well paced and 1hr 30min, or 2hr 30min].I repeat again, so you get it this time, there is no correlation between run time and quality.

    Restating your premise doesn't add to it's validity. Where is your evidence? So far we've got "Skyfall made a billion". Is that the whole thing, or is there more? Take your time.

    My point is that it's irrelevant whether the run time is [conparatively] short or long. On the one hand you have OHMSS - quality and lengthy duration. On the other, DAD - lacking in quality and a lengthy duration. Likewise you have GF - quality and comparatively short duration. On the other side, QoS - lacking in quality and a short duration. You can mix and match as you wish, but none of it points to there being a benefit from keeping a limit on run time.

    Capping the run time achieves nothing. The cut is poured over by many people and will be decided upon organically. They're not making a bottle of ketchup with a specific volume of liquid. It's a film.

    +1
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,401
    I'm trying to say something quite specific. RC7 is of the opinion that capping run time inhibits creativity, but if CR needs to have that action scene at the end, because modern audiences can't sit through a film of that length without an big climax at the end, then that would seem to suggest that longer runtimes don't in fact free up more creative range, but inhibit it. This is because after a certain point everything has to be designed around the audiences attention span. If the stories were shorter, they could do what they like without worrying about whether people are getting bored or not.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I don't think there should be a limit, but if they're going to make longer films more often, it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to mix it up in terms of runtimes, alternating between longer and shorter films, just to keep it fresh. The shorter films tend to go straight for the jugular, whereas the longer ones are slower paced and have more detailed characters. I think it's good not to get stuck on a single style. Look at Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace. After an epic like Casino, it was good to get a lean and mean entry such as Quantum.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I don't care as long as the movie is good.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,401
    I really think the ideal length for a Bond film is between 115 and 125 minutes. 130 if absolutely necessary but after that the story loses that zip. Watch Dr No or Goldfinger, and even though they are slower paced films, you can feel the plot moving forward. There is a focus on the Essential information, and not so much extraneous stuff. The modern Bond films are way too long for what they need to be (QoS accepted), it almost becomes an effort to wade through them. I expect Bond 25 to be another film over 130 minutes and that's 3 in a row. I really hope once Craig bails that we can return to films which aren't greedy with our time, and can tell a story in a concise manner. This is one of the most urgent aspects EON need to address if they have any ambition to take Bond into a new era.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Murdock wrote: »
    I don't care as long as the movie is good.

    Spot on,well said Murdock !
  • Posts: 15,125
    No.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 1,534
    YOLT, TMWTGG, FYEO, and especially SP all could've been shorter. The longer running times of OHMSS, CR, and SF are all justified IMO. I wish QOS was about ten minutes longer.
    110-130 minutes is perfect.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Murdock wrote: »
    I don't care as long as the movie is good.

    First time I've seen this thread and after wading through 4 pages of pointlessness Murdock has effectively closed this rather futile discussion in 10 concise words.
  • Posts: 1,031
    Murdock wrote: »
    I don't care as long as the movie is good.

    Absolutely.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Agreed.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,401
    When you think about, a story should only take a certain time to play itself out, and some do a better job than others. The Bond series is a bit notorious for having the tightest of scripts, and Bond just kinda wondering around from place to place, which take up time and doesn't"t achieve much. So I can not blame the directors too much, as it is really a script issue of not being straightforward or clear with its storytelling. I think the ideal range for a Bond film should be around 115 to 125. There are exceptions like OHMSS and CR where the nature of the story demands a further adding to the limit. In future I would like them to have a focus on trying to write a script where everything adds up together, with no meandering.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,401
    I feel Bond 25 will be much shorter than the last couple movies. Hopefully around a snug 130 minutes. I think even EON will recognise that SP was overstuffed.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    130 feels right. Plenty of time to tell a story and have great set pieces with a strong climax and resolution.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    While I wouldn't advocate a 3 hour Bond film, I don't mind if a Bond film clears out a modest 110 minutes or rather an impressive 140. If M:I 6 has taught me anything, it's that a great spy actioner flies by no matter what its feature length. In a way, CR feels a lot shorter to me than TND while being 25 minutes longer.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    While I wouldn't advocate a 3 hour Bond film, I don't mind if a Bond film clears out a modest 110 minutes or rather an impressive 140. If M:I 6 has taught me anything, it's that a great spy actioner flies by no matter what its feature length. In a way, CR feels a lot shorter to me than TND while being 25 minutes longer.
    I agree. It's not so much the length of the film but how it grabs and engages the viewer during that timeframe. If there is something important to say, and it's said well during an extended runtime, then I'm all for it. If, on the other hand, there is nothing to say (as in QoS due to a writer's strike), then tighten it up and make it shorter. As always, it's about the execution.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    The James Bond team is us
    bondjames wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    While I wouldn't advocate a 3 hour Bond film, I don't mind if a Bond film clears out a modest 110 minutes or rather an impressive 140. If M:I 6 has taught me anything, it's that a great spy actioner flies by no matter what its feature length. In a way, CR feels a lot shorter to me than TND while being 25 minutes longer.
    I agree. It's not so much the length of the film but how it grabs and engages the viewer during that timeframe. If there is something important to say, and it's said well during an extended runtime, then I'm all for it. If, on the other hand, there is nothing to say (as in QoS due to a writer's strike), then tighten it up and make it shorter. As always, it's about the execution.

    Yes, spectre was pointlessly long, while CR used its length to its advantage
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    CR was the perfect length for that story. I actually wish they'd have kept some of the deleted scenes with Vesper and Getter. A nice 150 minute epic.

    The shorter running time of QOS actually works quite well but it could have used about ten more minutes to flesh out the plot a bit.

    Apparently SF has a ton of deleted scenes and shots. Some sound interesting but the movie is already long enough.

    SP was just too damn long. This is a movie that shouldn't have been more than two hours tops.

    I'd like B25 to be somewhere between 115-135 minutes.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 16,170
    I personally think CR should have been much shorter in running time, More like DN or QoS. The novel was short and compact.
    The film's first half feels a bit like explanatory padding that only points out Bond is on his first MI6 assignment as a post 00 graduate.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,401
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I personally think CR should have been much shorter in running time, More like DN or QoS. The novel was short and compact.
    The film's first half feels a bit like explanatory padding that only points out Bond is on his first MI6 assignment as a post 00 graduate.

    Very true, and well said. Glad I'm not the only one to pick up on this. Like they wanted to make a big deal out of the "rookie Bond" aspect when the story is not affected much by it (because it wasn't there in Flemings original). The film does feel a bit plodding until the train scene where it starts to ram up.
  • Posts: 16,170
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I personally think CR should have been much shorter in running time, More like DN or QoS. The novel was short and compact.
    The film's first half feels a bit like explanatory padding that only points out Bond is on his first MI6 assignment as a post 00 graduate.

    Very true, and well said. Glad I'm not the only one to pick up on this. Like they wanted to make a big deal out of the "rookie Bond" aspect when the story is not affected much by it (because it wasn't there in Flemings original). The film does feel a bit plodding until the train scene where it starts to ram up.

    That's the one thing that bothers me most about CR was the gimmick of telling Bond's origin a'la BATMAN BEGINS. If I recall the book only uses THE NATURE OF EVIL chapter to indicate Bond's back story, and to me that was enough. The rest of the book is business as usual. The concept of the film as a timeline re-boot wasn't necessary, IMO because the novel itself already had a strong plot.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Personally if a Bond film comes in below 2 hours I kind of feel robbed as the delays between films is getting beyond a joke!!
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    edited December 2018 Posts: 2,541
    Considering this will be Craig's last bond film and one that coming out after 4 years it could more lengthy than SP I believe.
  • Posts: 16,170
    My favorite run-time for the Bond films is 130 minutes.
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