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007: What would you have done differently?

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    CigaretteLeiter wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    coco1997 wrote: »
    It's actually the University of Iowa.

    You are correct. Here's a description of everything in Maibaum's papers.
    I got confused and wrote the "University of Indiana, Bloomington," which is actually where Fleming's papers and manuscripts are. How convenient it would have been if Maibaum's papers had been at the same university!
    Anyway, I hope more scholars will make their way to Iowa City in the near future.

    Fleming's manuscripts are actually at IU? Holy hell, I'm starting school there in the fall and I didn't even know!

    Can you try to steal them? And share them here. Much obliged.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,814
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    CigaretteLeiter wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    coco1997 wrote: »
    It's actually the University of Iowa.

    You are correct. Here's a description of everything in Maibaum's papers.
    I got confused and wrote the "University of Indiana, Bloomington," which is actually where Fleming's papers and manuscripts are. How convenient it would have been if Maibaum's papers had been at the same university!
    Anyway, I hope more scholars will make their way to Iowa City in the near future.

    Fleming's manuscripts are actually at IU? Holy hell, I'm starting school there in the fall and I didn't even know!

    Can you try to steal them? And share them here. Much obliged.

    Or take photos with a phone camera!
  • bondsumbondsum
    edited April 2018 Posts: 3,333
    Thanks @RichardTheBruce. Though the article did make one slip with "Fleming’s original novel was considered unsuitable for adaptation but the title was retained with the aim of building a new story around it." It wasn't the fact that it was "unsuitable" but that Fleming only sold them the title, putting a stipulation that the story content couldn't be used for whatever personal issues he had. I'm hoping that @Ludovico gets to see the entire draft script so we can understand more about Burgess' Bond parody.
    echo wrote: »
    I'd change very little of TSWLM. Business-wise, it is perhaps the most important film in the franchise. Another TMWTGG might have killed the series.
    No, it was more a case of it being Roger Moore's last shot at playing Bond. If the BO numbers had been equally as low as TMWTGG, it would not have been curtains for Bond but adios Moore and a new actor would have replaced him for MR. Just as a "what if" scenario, that might have made MR (or FYEO as it was intended to be after TSWLM) a much better movie than the one we got and I bet it would have stayed more faithful to the original novel.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,340
    For anyone interested I wrote a blog article on the Anthony Burgess screenplay back in 2014. I'm also planning a follow-up article looking more substantively at the screenplay at some future point:

    http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/anthony-burgess-on-spy-who-loved-me.html
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    Yes, I read it @Dragonpol. Very good article, sir.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,340
    bondsum wrote: »
    Yes, I read it @Dragonpol. Very good article, sir.

    Thank you, @bondsum. Something I noticed a good few years ago and wrote up as a much shorter article in 2006. It even featured on the CBn Main Page at one time. As I say, the second part is on its way.
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    Look forward to reading that second part @Dragonpol. Keep up the excellent work.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2018 Posts: 18,340
    bondsum wrote: »
    Look forward to reading that second part @Dragonpol. Keep up the excellent work.

    Thank you, kind sir. Sadly I've not read the actual Burgess screenplay but I will analyse the known details at least. :)
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,220
    @bondsum It might be a while until I go to the Foundation. Haven't had my Burgess pilgrimage since 2013. But next time will try to arrive announced and will ask Andrew Biswell if I can have a look at the script. I know they have the one of Jesus of Nazareth.
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    That would be most excellent @Ludovico. It's these little unearthed gems that I live for looking on these threads and the internet.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,926
    I'd lose the scene of Jaws tearing apart the phone repair van at the ruins. It's one of my least favorite scenes in the series with Moore popping off inane one-liners that aren't even funny, it diminishes the intimidation of Jaws and is capped off by the goofy music as the van putters away.

    It's scenes like this that made so many Bond fans cringe back in the day.

  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    Have Caroline Munro and Barbara Bach switch roles. Or at the very least, give the Naomi character more screen time.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    PrinceKamalKhan wrote: »
    Have Caroline Munro and Barbara Bach switch roles. Or at the very least, give the Naomi character more screen time.

    I can get behind that.
  • PussyNoMorePussyNoMore
    Posts: 520
    PussyNoMore would have changed everything except John Barry but he would have requested that Barry do something with more of a ‘Body Heat’ vibe.
    Fleming’s source novel would have made for a wonderful noir with the second act having a very ‘Key Largo’ feel to it.
    Hitchcock would have been the perfect director for the job and with Dalton as Bond and Diana Rigg cast as Vivienne Mitchel, we would have had the makings of a classic.
    The casting of Sluggsy and Horror would have also allowed for some creativity. Lee Marvin and Jack Palance would have been a good combination.
    Sadly, it was not to be - we had Sir Roger in this nonsense instead.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,340
    PussyNoMore wrote: »
    PussyNoMore would have changed everything except John Barry but he would have requested that Barry do something with more of a ‘Body Heat’ vibe.

    John Barry wasn't to blame for the score of TSWLM though. Marvin Hamlisch scored the film.
  • mybudgetbondmybudgetbond The World
    Posts: 189
    Film the novelisation that Christopher Wood did. Proper Flemingesque story. No silliness.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    mybudgetbond wrote: »
    Film the novelisation that Christopher Wood did. Proper Flemingesque story. No silliness.

    But Wood did the screenplay - and I don't think the audience would have accepted the different tone back then, hell some couldn't accept a shift in tone when a new actor took the part…
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    I kind of like the original idea of Blofeld coming back and Bond getting his revenge at last (imagine him killing Blofeld how he killed Stromberg), but not sure how it'd fit. The whole starting an underwater civilisation thing doesn't really fit Blofelds character, so he'd probably just be holding the world to ransom again (boring). And a Barry score would probably improve any film but I can't picture TSWLM without Bond 77.

    So I'm going to have to say nothing I think. It's one of the best imo. GF might have been where the formula first came about, but I think TSWLM perfected it. To me it's the best Roger Moore film, by far the best of the big epic YOLT style Bond films, and one of the best they've done in general. It's a classic. It feels like everyone was really firing on all cylinders to just make a really good Bond film and they pulled it off brilliantly. Wouldn't change a thing.

    My favourite quote about TSWLM, from the great denofgeek reviews/retrospectives: "never stops trying to please the audience, never fails to".
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    echo wrote: »
    I'd change very little of TSWLM. Business-wise, it is perhaps the most important film in the franchise. Another TMWTGG might have killed the series.

    And because Moore and Cubby bounced back, the odd bad Dalton, Brosnan, or Craig film isn't the death knell it could otherwise be.
    Very true Sir. This was the film that finally proved they could carry on without Sean. Nowadays a change of Bond is not a problem at all (in fact with B25 looking like hitting 5 years before coming out some probably welcome it at that stage) but back then we'd had the Laz experiment, the panicked grovelling to Sean and then OK start for Rog followed by a very poor (both quality wise and financially) follow up. If TSWLM had not hit it out of the park that could well have been it. I think there's footage of David Picker saying as much.
    PussyNoMore wrote: »
    PussyNoMore would have changed everything except John Barry but he would have requested that Barry do something with more of a ‘Body Heat’ vibe.
    Fleming’s source novel would have made for a wonderful noir with the second act having a very ‘Key Largo’ feel to it.
    Hitchcock would have been the perfect director for the job and with Dalton as Bond and Diana Rigg cast as Vivienne Mitchel, we would have had the makings of a classic.
    The casting of Sluggsy and Horror would have also allowed for some creativity. Lee Marvin and Jack Palance would have been a good combination.
    Sadly, it was not to be - we had Sir Roger in this nonsense instead.
    And that would certainly have finished things. TheWizardOfIce cannot for the life of him see how a run of the mill piece of pulp fiction (starring Diana Rigg?) set entirely in a motel would have salvaged the series ailing fortunes?

    After the poor TMWTGG this would have been the final nail. Thankfully Cubby was not an idiot and served up a classic slice of Roger 'nonsense' instead of some dull Americana with Bond shoehorned in.
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    Love the PTS. The flag on the parachute was a bit much, but it's still enjoyable.
    On the contrary. Britain was a grim and failing country in the mid 70s. This moment said keep calm and carry on as nobody does it better than the British and was the moment Bond transcended from Richard Hannay territory into national icon on a par with Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes.

    With just a plain black parachute I would say the sequence probably loses about 50% of its impact.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Definitely.

    The Union Jack parachute is one of the defining moments of the whole series.
    A timely reminder that Bond is British and always will be.

    And I've heard that the reactions from the cinema audiences was an ovation (some even standing) which sets up the enthusiasm for the whole film.

    I would have loved to have been at the Royal Premiere for TSWLM,it would have been a great night.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,205
    Considering the lukewarm reception to TMWTGG, and the 3 year gap, I'd say Broccoli delivered the goods on TSWLM. Even more so than, say, GE would later on.
    TSWLM holds up for me on every viewing.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    edited April 2018 Posts: 7,057
    I would've fleshed out Stromberg more, so that we would better understand what drove him to consider humanity so corrupt and decadent that it had to be destroyed. No need to fully explain it either, just some tantalizing lines here and there to get a better sense of his reasons and his thoughts on the matter, making the enigma around him more interesting without dissipating it.

    In the final film, Stromberg is a bit too opaque a villain. At times he feels less like a character and more like a concept.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,814
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    Love the PTS. The flag on the parachute was a bit much, but it's still enjoyable.
    On the contrary. Britain was a grim and failing country in the mid 70s. This moment said keep calm and carry on as nobody does it better than the British and was the moment Bond transcended from Richard Hannay territory into national icon on a par with Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes.

    With just a plain black parachute I would say the sequence probably loses about 50% of its impact.
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Definitely.

    The Union Jack parachute is one of the defining moments of the whole series.
    A timely reminder that Bond is British and always will be.

    And I've heard that the reactions from the cinema audiences was an ovation (some even standing) which sets up the enthusiasm for the whole film.

    I would have loved to have been at the Royal Premiere for TSWLM,it would have been a great night.

    That's totally an understandable point to make, regarding Britain at the time, and all. From my perspective though, it's a bit too much. One of those things you'd imagine Austin Powers to do. Then again, patriotism is perhaps more apparent in Britain than in Norway.
  • vzokvzok
    Posts: 4,045
    That Union Flag moment totally hit the mark at that time in the cinema. My lasting memory of the title sequence was not being able to see or hear it.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,220
    mybudgetbond wrote: »
    Film the novelisation that Christopher Wood did. Proper Flemingesque story. No silliness.

    One of the few instances where the novelization is better than the movie.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited April 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    Love the PTS. The flag on the parachute was a bit much, but it's still enjoyable.
    On the contrary. Britain was a grim and failing country in the mid 70s. This moment said keep calm and carry on as nobody does it better than the British and was the moment Bond transcended from Richard Hannay territory into national icon on a par with Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes.

    With just a plain black parachute I would say the sequence probably loses about 50% of its impact.
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Definitely.

    The Union Jack parachute is one of the defining moments of the whole series.
    A timely reminder that Bond is British and always will be.

    And I've heard that the reactions from the cinema audiences was an ovation (some even standing) which sets up the enthusiasm for the whole film.

    I would have loved to have been at the Royal Premiere for TSWLM,it would have been a great night.

    That's totally an understandable point to make, regarding Britain at the time, and all. From my perspective though, it's a bit too much. One of those things you'd imagine Austin Powers to do. Then again, patriotism is perhaps more apparent in Britain than in Norway.
    Don't forget that the only reason Austin Powers exists is because of Bond. It wouldn't make sense for him to have a Union Jack parachute if Bond hadn't done it first.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mybudgetbond wrote: »
    Film the novelisation that Christopher Wood did. Proper Flemingesque story. No silliness.

    One of the few instances where the novelization is better than the movie.
    Yep I'm with you there. The backstory of Jaws is excellent and I think the finale ends up better with Atlantis sinking into a caldera or something. A very decent stab by Christopher Wood.
  • mybudgetbondmybudgetbond The World
    Posts: 189
    Lancaster007 wrote: »
    mybudgetbond wrote: »
    Film the novelisation that Christopher Wood did. Proper Flemingesque story. No silliness.

    But Wood did the screenplay - and I don't think the audience would have accepted the different tone back then, hell some couldn't accept a shift in tone when a new actor took the part…
    Lancaster007 wrote: »
    mybudgetbond wrote: »
    Film the novelisation that Christopher Wood did. Proper Flemingesque story. No silliness.

    But Wood did the screenplay - and I don't think the audience would have accepted the different tone back then, hell some couldn't accept a shift in tone when a new actor took the part…

    Oh I know he did, but have you read the novelisation he did? It has all the basic story beats, but done in a wonderful Flemingesque way much closer to a Connery Bond. It's what I want from a Bond movie rather than what we got during the Moore years.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,814
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    Love the PTS. The flag on the parachute was a bit much, but it's still enjoyable.
    On the contrary. Britain was a grim and failing country in the mid 70s. This moment said keep calm and carry on as nobody does it better than the British and was the moment Bond transcended from Richard Hannay territory into national icon on a par with Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes.

    With just a plain black parachute I would say the sequence probably loses about 50% of its impact.
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Definitely.

    The Union Jack parachute is one of the defining moments of the whole series.
    A timely reminder that Bond is British and always will be.

    And I've heard that the reactions from the cinema audiences was an ovation (some even standing) which sets up the enthusiasm for the whole film.

    I would have loved to have been at the Royal Premiere for TSWLM,it would have been a great night.

    That's totally an understandable point to make, regarding Britain at the time, and all. From my perspective though, it's a bit too much. One of those things you'd imagine Austin Powers to do. Then again, patriotism is perhaps more apparent in Britain than in Norway.
    Don't forget that the only reason Austin Powers exists is because of Bond. It wouldn't make sense for him to have a Union Jack parachute it if Bond hadn't done it first.

    Wouldn't it? Austin Powers is so caricature-like, that it wouldn't have surprised me if he did, TSWLM Union Jack or not. In any case, I still think the parachute thing with the Union Jack was a bit too much. Don't think it would have happened with Moore in the way he portrayed Bond in TMWTGG. It's a funny and entertaining scene, though.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,340
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I would've fleshed out Stromberg more, so that we would better understand what drove him to consider humanity so corrupt and decadent that it had to be destroyed. No need to fully explain it either, just some tantalizing lines here and there to get a better sense of his reasons and his thoughts on the matter, making the enigma around him more interesting without dissipating it.

    In the final film, Stromberg is a bit too opaque a villain. At times he feels less like a character and more like a concept.

    Stromberg is thankfully fleshed out much more in Christopher Wood's excellent novelisation. We get to know his backgroundvand his motivations for destroying humanity in a nuclear holocaust. That's something that's not very well addressed in the finished film. Villain motivation is not one of the film's strengths.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I would've fleshed out Stromberg more, so that we would better understand what drove him to consider humanity so corrupt and decadent that it had to be destroyed. No need to fully explain it either, just some tantalizing lines here and there to get a better sense of his reasons and his thoughts on the matter, making the enigma around him more interesting without dissipating it.

    In the final film, Stromberg is a bit too opaque a villain. At times he feels less like a character and more like a concept.

    Stromberg is thankfully fleshed out much more in Christopher Wood's excellent novelisation. We get to know his backgroundvand his motivations for destroying humanity in a nuclear holocaust. That's something that's not very well addressed in the finished film. Villain motivation is not one of the film's strengths.

    Still the best non-Fleming Bond book I have read, bar none. Not even close.
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