007: What would you have done differently?

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited May 2018 Posts: 6,396
    OP is a sentimental favorite of mine, and not coincidentally, the first Bond I saw in the theater.

    The fixes I would make are relatively minor: get rid of the racist Indian jokes, sharpen the hunting scene (taking out the vines and the Tarzan yell would go a long way). Get a better singer for the song (a higher voice befitting the song).

    The rest of the humor is pretty good as is. "No, ma'am, I'm on the economy tour." "I'd heard the price of eggs had gone up, but isn't that a little high?" Classic Moore hitting his stride, and in a lot of ways, his quintessential Bond performance.

    He definitely should have retired after this one.
  • Posts: 11,425
    fair points about OP. still a top 10 entry for me though.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    Birdleson wrote: »
    These Glen films are easy; and they all have similar issues.

    1. Cut the current PTS out entirely and replace it with the Post-Credit sequence of 009 being chased by the twins. His death, and release of the Faberge' Egg, transitions into the Title Sequence. Bond need not appear in every PTS, he's been left out before.
    2. Take out all of the overt silliness (Vijay playing the Bond Theme on a flute, the Tarzan yell, "sit", anything of like that I am forgetting).
    3. Replace both the safari and the raid on Kamal Khan's fortress with serious, intense and genuinely intense action scenes. Maybe call in a second unit director who doesn't give in to the temptations of schtick.
    3. Better title track by a different artist.
    4. Better actress to play Magda.
    5. In general, if the larger action scenes (aside from the ones mentioned above, I'm think of the two in Octopussy's palace) cannot be done with some real grit and tension just cut them out and shorten the runtime considerably.
    6. Cut Q's screen time down to one appearance in the lab.

    Then we're looking at a Top Ten Bond film!

    Agree almost with everything here, except I quite like Kristina Wayborn. The 009 scene was excellent.
    For me as in the previous film, just cut the silliness (not forgetting the gorilla suit @Birdleson) and it would make a good Bond into a great Bond!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Perhaps controversial, but I've always liked the gorilla suit, and the time check. Barry's score keeps it tense. I also like the clown outfit, which I know some have an issue with.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    bondjames wrote: »
    Perhaps controversial, but I've always liked the gorilla suit, and the time check. Barry's score keeps it tense. I also like the clown outfit, which I know some have an issue with.

    Don't have issue with the clown suit - he's in a circus and needs to disguise himself, seems pretty obvious choice really.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,714
    For all the flak Glen seems to get, he's responsible for some of the best tension in the series. Bond being unmasked in front of Dario, the Pushkin confrontation, and the whole sequence in the clown suit are all great.

    I'm mostly okay with Octopussy. The only usual trouble point I'd dump is the Tarzan yell.

    But I would add the horrible scene where he zooms in on the woman's boobs in Q's lab. Not even getting into making Bond a creepy sexual harrasser, it's just immature and stupid. He acts like he's seven years old.

    Overall though, Octopussy is a wonderfully bizarre film that could only ever, ever exist in the Bond series. And that's what I want from these films: uniquely Bondian experiences.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    edited May 2018 Posts: 7,058

    Don't have issue with the clown suit - he's in a circus and needs to disguise himself, seems pretty obvious choice really.
    And it ties in beautifully into the earlier scene with 009. We saw him dressed as a clown at the circus and he didn't make it out of there alive. Now Bond is in the same situation. Will he make it? It's a great little touch to add to a thriller. I wish more Bond films would use it. It's also present in TMWTGG.

    Overall though, Octopussy is a wonderfully bizarre film that could only ever, ever exist in the Bond series. And that's what I want from these films: uniquely Bondian experiences.
    Yes!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The clock is ticking and he spends time making his clown makeup absolutely perfect.
  • Posts: 19,339
    The clock is ticking and he spends time making his clown makeup absolutely perfect.

    Suspension of disbelief.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,058
    The clock is ticking and he spends time making his clown makeup absolutely perfect.
    That is a common complaint, it seems. I don't mind it myself. His makeup is intended to look perfect not because he took the time to make it so (although obviously the film allows for such a conclusion), but because the scene was conceived in such a way that the MPs later confuse the real circus clown for Bond, so the makeup people, or John Glen, or whoever, made sure their make up looked as close as possible. It wasn't necessary, really, but they did it. I think it's a John Glen touch. But the point is I accept the make up on Bond because I accept its narrative purpose in the scene. YMMV.
  • Posts: 17,821
    Octopussy is one of my personal favourites, and impossible to leave out of the top ten. For some years, it was the favourite. Roger Moore is at his best here. He actually seems to enjoy himself just a little bit more than in FYEO and AVTAK, and that helps.

    I have issues with the obvious things, of course: The Tarzan yell, the racist Indian jokes, and the Bond Theme on a flute. I never cared that much for the PTS, either. Also agree on the point from @Birdleson about replacing both the safari and the raid on Kamal Khan's fortress with better action scenes.

    Other than that, I can forgive most of the silliness (the clown costumes, etc.), as it has some dark moments there, as well. Also think that Maud Adams as Octopussy was Moore's best main Bond girl by far.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,589
    1. Make the death of 009 the PTS (as has been mentioned). BTW: I really love this sequence.
    2. New song, for the love of gawd.
    3. No Bond theme via Vijay's shenai
    4. No Tarzan yell
    5. Magda is the woman Bond falls for
  • Posts: 19,339
    Also no 'hiss off' to the snake or 'SIT ! ' to the tiger.

    That could have been a really tense,well executed and original scene.

    It's still good once Bond is in the marshes with the leaches and being chased by the crocodile,you can see the fear on his face,but it could have been better.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,396
    mattjoes wrote: »
    That is a common complaint, it seems. I don't mind it myself. His makeup is intended to look perfect not because he took the time to make it so (although obviously the film allows for such a conclusion), but because the scene was conceived in such a way that the MPs later confuse the real circus clown for Bond, so the makeup people, or John Glen, or whoever, made sure their make up looked as close as possible. It wasn't necessary, really, but they did it. I think it's a John Glen touch. But the point is I accept the make up on Bond because I accept its narrative purpose in the scene. YMMV.

    Agreed. Also, it's important to the tension that Octopussy disbelieve Bond at first because (1) she thinks he's dead and (2) he's in disguise.

    Bond getting into full clown makeup quickly is no less believable than Bond dropping into the plane in the GE teaser, Bond surviving on a disintegrating plane in DAD, or many other moments in the series that require the suspension of disbelief.
  • Posts: 7,653
    A grand and uniquely Bond adventure as they have not made anymore, the last in his sort. Wouldn't change anything because as a package is still an absolute entertaining movie.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,087
    I probably agree with just about every post about this or that deserving to be changed. While I wouldn't say that OP is "the worst movie" among them all, it has a certain claim to being my least favourite, minus TWINE and of course DAD. It's just too much fairy tale nonsense, too little suspension of disbelief, too much cringe-inducing idiocy. Not saying everything is bad, but neither is everything about, say, CR '67.

    Probably one of the five Bond films (of the official franchise) I like to re-watch the least. Keeps me cringing whenever I see it. Even less than AVTAK.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    TripAces wrote: »
    5. Magda is the woman Bond falls for

    That would probably have worked if Octopussy Smythe had been a villainess as was originally intended in earlier script drafts.

  • edited May 2018 Posts: 2,922
    The women's roles definitely needed more development. To quote Ms. Kael one last time:

    "...neither [the director] nor the writers appear to have thought out the women's roles. Magda, a mysterious, tall, greasy-lipped blonde (Kristina Wayborn, who played Garbo on TV), has an amused manner; she seduces Bond, then disappears without any explanation, and when she turns up again he barely gives her a nod. The naughty, chic perversities that are promised by the title and some of the decor are left to our minds—as if the moviemakers had no idea they'd planted them there. As the title character, the beautiful Amazon Maud Adams is disappointingly warm and maternal—she's rather mooshy. At one moment, Octopussy is a leader, and the next moment she's a dupe, who doesn't know what's going on around her. The role is a washout, and the performance is so smiley-innocuous that when she leads Bond to her octopus-shaped bed it must be to lie back against the pillows and have a nice cup of tea and milk."

    Perhaps Magda and Octopussy's roles could have been merged and played by a more tigerish actress. Octopussy doesn't necessarily need to be a villain, but she needs to give off an electric, dangerous vibe even when you know she'd good.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 11,425
    all excellent comments and mostly true. still love OP tho
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,171
    As it's one of my all time (high) Favourite Bond films, it stands to reason there is little I would change with Octopussy.
    I love the PTS, the last time that it's
    been a mini movie. The pts is nothing to do with the movie that follows.
    I would remove the Tarzan swing and yell. The gorilla suit, and probably the 'hiss off' and 'Siiiit!'
    Other than that I'd keep it just as it is, a gem of the series with Sir Rog giving a wonderful performance.
  • JWPepperJWPepper You sit on it, but you can't take it with you.
    Posts: 512
    I actually quite like the Tarzan yell. The whistle in TMWTGG is far worse.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    JWPepper wrote: »
    I actually quite like the Tarzan yell. The whistle in TMWTGG is far worse.

    Seriously? He trying to escape being killed, so he lets out a Tarzan yodel drawing attention to himself? The slide-whistle is just annoying, the Tarzan swing is just plain stupid.
  • JWPepperJWPepper You sit on it, but you can't take it with you.
    Posts: 512

    Seriously? He trying to escape being killed, so he lets out a Tarzan yodel drawing attention to himself? The slide-whistle is just annoying, the Tarzan swing is just plain stupid.

    You don't see Bond yell. In stead of a music cue, you hear a sound snippet. For me, it's more like a backgroundsound than a yell coming from Bond.

    Just like the soundtrack, there isnt a orchestra playing music in the background.
  • Posts: 19,339
    JWPepper wrote: »

    You don't see Bond yell. In stead of a music cue, you hear a sound snippet. For me, it's more like a backgroundsound than a yell coming from Bond.

    Just like the soundtrack, there isnt a orchestra playing music in the background.

    Agreed,its just another stupid sound as per the car jump in TMWTGG.
    Bond doesn't make the sound,personally,that's why I can 'tolerate' it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2018 Posts: 23,883
    They both sort of have a similar effect though, which is to soften the mood or break the tension. It's all par for the course in a Roger Moore Bond film, but I think there was just a bit too much of it in certain instances in OP (and particularly during both those jungle and rickshaw chases)
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    JWPepper wrote: »
    I actually quite like the Tarzan yell. The whistle in TMWTGG is far worse.

    Neither of those ever really bothered me. The California Girls intrusion during the AVTAK ski is far worse IMHO.
  • Posts: 3,334
    Can't disagree with what @Birdleson wrote about OP with regards to stripping away the tomfoolery. There are some things I like about OP, then there's an awful lot I dislike too. Terrible song, totally forgotten entry that barely made an impact in the charts. Then again, I'm surprised to read that neither did DAF nor YOLT. Despite a lot of us disliking Sheena Easton's "For Your Eyes Only" song, it did reach No.4 on the billboard 100. Surprised also to see that Sam Smith's "Writing's On The Wall" only reached No.71, which begs the question how the hell did it ever win an Oscar?

    The raid on Kamal Khan's fortress with Q's hot air balloon, sporting a Union Jack design, is toe-curling bad. Remove it and replace it with a raid something more akin to OHMSS's Piz Gloria attack, certainly tonally. Boy, was I missing Harry Saltzman's touch after an absence of 4 movies by this point. Didn't like Bond dressed as a clown either, but thought it fitted in well with Moore's portrayal, so quite apt really. Otherwise, rewrite this final segment and don't have Bond dressed as Coco The Clown. I'd rather they'd just lifted Goldfinger wholesale and had 007 handcuffed to the bloody bomb. Mrs Kael is totally correct in her summary when she says: "At one moment, Octopussy is a leader, and the next moment she's a dupe, who doesn't know what's going on around her. The role is a washout, and the performance is so smiley-innocuous that when she leads Bond to her octopus-shaped bed it must be to lie back against the pillows and have a nice cup of tea and milk." Overall, a much better looking entry than its predecessor, but a damp squib nonetheless. Good poster, apart from Moore's incredibly long legs! Looks like he's on stilts.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    JWPepper wrote: »

    You don't see Bond yell. In stead of a music cue, you hear a sound snippet. For me, it's more like a backgroundsound than a yell coming from Bond.

    Just like the soundtrack, there isnt a orchestra playing music in the background.

    No - he's swinging through the feckin trees with the Tarzan yodel played over the top!
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    The complaint about the portrayal of women applies to most bond films
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 3,334
    w2bond wrote: »
    The complaint about the portrayal of women applies to most bond films
    Thing is we're discussing OP @w2bond. OP has the title villainess at its central core, so it's only fair to judge this not-one-thing-or-another character as one of the reasons why the movie falls short in this particular department. The writer/director/producer should have stuck with keeping Octopussy as a strong leader rather than turning her into a dupe. If anyone should've been duped, it should've been 007. But we had to wait until TWINE's Elektra King for this same scenario to be played out again with a bit more cohesion.
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