007: What would you have done differently?

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Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    edited May 2018 Posts: 308
    bondsum wrote: »
    Totally agree, @Revelator. Skip it entirely and move onto TLD with Dalton.

    Well, @Jeffrey from the Netherlands, we can't all have taste.

    Well, @bondsum, taste is subjective. ;-)
    Birdleson wrote: »
    A VIEW TO A KILL, for all it's zaniness, needs to either be chucked out entirely or accepted for more or less what it is. I have chosen to accept it.

    Here are the minor changes I would instill:

    1. Keep the PTS intact, but have Bond escape in a more grounded manner (no Kimberly Jones, no ice-berg sub).
    2. As someone else mentioned, Moore should have forgone the plastic surgery.
    3. Remove Gogol and the Russian angle.
    4. Entirely cut the fight that Bond and Tibbet have with the guards in the warehouse.
    5. Shorten the SF firetruck chase by half, at least.
    6. In the horse chase scene remove all close-ups of Bond and Zorin in which they are obviously not on horseback, also eliminate electronic obstacle gags.
    7. Remove every instance of Stacey uttering, "James!"
    8. Take out the dirigible sneaking up on and capturing Stacey; that is just goddamned stupid.
    9. Either dump the fight between Bond and the guys breaking into Stacey's home, or replace it with a serious fight scene.
    10. Lose Q's robot.
    11. Chuck Lee's death should not be a repeat of Tibbet's.

    Most of your changes would make the film better, I agree. I don't really mind the Russian angle, but it wasn't necessary.

    With regards to the fight in the warehouse and at Stacy's, I feel the editing is a bit sloppy as well.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bondsum wrote: »
    Well, nothing survives intact from Fleming's own short story about Bond investigating the murder of a motorcycle dispatch-rider and the theft of his top-secret documents by a motorcycle-riding assassin, nor does the title.

    Surely the pts was inspired by it? They should have followed it more closely.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,359
    bondsum wrote: »
    Well, nothing survives intact from Fleming's own short story about Bond investigating the murder of a motorcycle dispatch-rider and the theft of his top-secret documents by a motorcycle-riding assassin, nor does the title.

    Surely the pts was inspired by it? They should have followed it more closely.

    Interesting. I hadn't considered that.

    AVTAK needs a page-one rewrite. They had a few decent actors in Walken, MacNee, and Jones and good settings but that's about it.
  • Posts: 1,926
    Imagine this scenario: You're 18 years-old, you have a week to go before your high school graduation and the newest Bond film with the best title songs since LALD is coming out. Life couldn't get any better in 1985.

    Then you see AVTAK on opening weekend and it remains almost at the bottom of the series for you until this day. That was and is me and AVTAK.
  • Posts: 16,204
    When I was a kid everyone seemed to love AVTAK and name it as their number 1 Bond film. Probably had to do with Christopher Walken, the popularity of Grace Jones, Duran Duran, and the reliability of the ever smooth Roger Moore.
    I always though, even back then, that the other kids in school loved it because it was the newest film. They all labeled RETURN OF THE JEDI as the best Star Wars film.
    I certainly liked it, and actually far preferred it to OP at the time. But it was no FRWL or GF, IMO.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    i liked AVTAK a lot more when I was a teenager too. It was made in 1985, the year I was born so that made it slightly special for me. “Wine with Stacey” is still one of my all-time favourite Barry tracks.

    Watching it as an adult though is disappointing. There’s a generally bland, lethargic air to the whole film and @bondsum had it pretty much dead on when he described it as a special Simon Templar meets John Steed Tv episode. It’s the sort of film that’s on tv during a quiet Sunday afternoon but no one actually watches.

    In the weeks after Roger died I watched 5 of his films from TSWLM to AVTAK and AVTAK easily came off as the weakest.
  • Posts: 1,926
    Another thing AVTAK had going against it on opening weekend in '85 was it was up against Rambo: First Blood II. People of my peer group were much more excited about that at the time, showing Bond was old school action and Rambo new and fresh.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 684
    Here are the changes suggested so far I agree with, some quite minor:

    - Tanya's screaming: I don't mind having a helping of it. In fact based on her character I'd prefer it. Very Saturday matinee heroine. But as @Birdleson pointed out the "James!"es specifically do add up. Although I'd keep the one after May Day dies, when she realizes Bond is alive. That one is nice.
    - Keeping the original title as @Thunderfinger suggested. Much prefer FROM A VIEW TO A KILL and there's not really any good reason why it couldn't have been that.
    - Moore's cosmetic work, as a few have noted. The film embraces Bond's age in its bones, so should it have in Bond's appearance.
    - The fisticuffs. I don't mind an aging Bond running around, physically exerting himself and looking as though he is aged. The fist fights look as they ought, in that respect, but it'd have been better to avoid any extensive use of them, a la the warehouse fight.
    - The missed opportunity of making San Fran shine photographically. This might be a problem with the US in general, but it's also a problem the 80s films have with all their locations.
    - Nix 'California Girls'
    - Nix Q's robot.
    - Different, less caricatured actor for Aubergine.

    Some others:

    - In addition to my above suggestion re: a ringing sound effect to help make Stacey's blimp-napping more conceivable (at least explaining why she doesn't hear Rog calling out to her, not least the airship engine), maybe also add a snippet of dialogue where Walken says, "Cut the motor" or some such and then enhance the sound effect of its revving up again once she's grabbed.
    - Use a stuntman to come through the roof of the boat instead of a dummy.
    - The cat jump 'scare' when Bond arrives at Stacey's house is dumb.

    Changes I very much disagree with:

    - Making the film more violent. The film is already actually quite violent (for Bond), and presages the tone of LTK, which I think goes too far (again, for Bond) and ends up coming across as a gimmick. Any more violence here and you'd risk the same. I believe one of Moore's protestations against AVTAK was due to its violence. The strangulation of each Chuck Lee and Godfrey; Zorin feeding the KGB agent to the pump; the mine massacre; Zorin kills directly or is involved in the murder of a lot of people. Note also Moore's tone throughout; grave and growing graver the more the violence stacks up. A testament to Moore's perception of tone and nailing it.
    - Allowing Godfrey and Chuck to live. As discussed in the 'Final Mission' thread on AVTAK going at the moment, this adds to the odds stacking up against Bond, as his allies drop off.
    - Recasting Grace Jones. It would erase a massive chunk of the film's character.
    - Erasing it entirely and doing TLD. A pointless response.
    - Removing Gogol and the Russian angle. I think it contributes to Zorin's loose canon nature and helps establish him as a man without a country, in stark contrast to Bond.
    - Age difference between Zorin/Bond. Again, per the discussion in the other thread, I feel the contrast in age between Rog and Walken adds to the film instead of subtracts.

    Neutral/mixed towards:

    - The fire truck chase. I agree that it's lacking compared to some other of Glen's set pieces, but it's still better than much of the action to feature post-GE.
    - Iceberg sub. I'm fine with getting rid of Kimberly Jones more so than the iceberg sub. Considering the tone the rest of the film takes, I think it's in order to have a bit of 'Rogtainment" at the beginning.
    bondsum wrote: »
    If you liked this bottom of the barrel tosh then I'm guessing you also think DAD is a great Bond movie too.
    Nah. AVTAK is high mid-teens enjoyable. DAD is dead last.

  • edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    That cry of “James” when she is on the hilltop is unintentionally funny.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 684
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Strog wrote: »
    Here are the changes suggested so far I agree with, some quite minor:

    - Tanya's screaming: I don't mind having a helping of it. In fact based on her character I'd prefer it. Very Saturday matinee heroine. But as @Birdleson pointed out the "James!"es specifically do add up. Although I'd keep the one after May Day dies, when she realizes Bond is alive. That one is nice.

    Funny, that one almost annoys me the most. It's like after all of the "James"s we've stood up to that point she was compelled to throw out this coda.
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    That cry of “James” when she is on the hilltop is unintentionally funny.
    To be clear, and we might still be referencing the same one, I'm talking about the one where there's a close up on her face and she sees Bond coming out of the mine. Not the one (two? three?) a few seconds later, in the shot with Zorin's blimp behind her, which I'd be fine canning.

    Although I do like the idea of calling it Stacey's coda.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Strog wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    That cry of “James” when she is on the hilltop is unintentionally funny.
    To be clear, and we might still be referencing the same one, I'm talking about the one where there's a close up on her face and she sees Bond coming out of the mine. Not the one (two? three?) a few seconds later, in the shot with Zorin's blimp behind her, which I'd be fine canning.

    Although I do like the idea of calling it Stacey's coda.

    Yes that’s the one im thinking of. I like how she takes a noticeable breath before shouting.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 684
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Strog wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    That cry of “James” when she is on the hilltop is unintentionally funny.
    To be clear, and we might still be referencing the same one, I'm talking about the one where there's a close up on her face and she sees Bond coming out of the mine. Not the one (two? three?) a few seconds later, in the shot with Zorin's blimp behind her, which I'd be fine canning.

    Although I do like the idea of calling it Stacey's coda.

    Yes that’s the one im thinking of. I like how she takes a noticeable breath before shouting.
    Considering all the screams, her lungs were naturally struggling to keep up. ;)
  • Posts: 684
    Birdleson wrote: »
    @Strog I knew which one you meant.
    "Stacey's coda" it is, then.
  • Posts: 1,926
    Birdleson wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Imagine this scenario: You're 18 years-old, you have a week to go before your high school graduation and the newest Bond film with the best title songs since LALD is coming out. Life couldn't get any better in 1985.

    Then you see AVTAK on opening weekend and it remains almost at the bottom of the series for you until this day. That was and is me and AVTAK.

    I'm willing to bet you weren't as traumatized as I was my senior year of high school: MR.
    Ironically, seeing MR in the summer of '79 made me the Bond fan I am today. Where we can meet in the middle is knowing our respective nightmare films were followed up by harder-edged return to basics films two years later.

    I don't think anybody has mentioned the funny cop and his Keystone Cops antics. Please get any trace of him out of this film. A horrible addition to an already flawed film. I guess they just figured it's already bad, let's pile on. Makes me pine for the good old days of J.W. Pepper.

    That's yet another piece of the AVTAK puzzle: The tone is all over the place. You have these stark, realistic and violent deaths followed by or preceded by slapstick like the firetruck chase. OP had its moments like this as well, but the balance wasn't nearly as jarring.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,359
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    That cry of “James” when she is on the hilltop is unintentionally funny.

    Does Stacey cry "James" more than any other Bond girl? It sure seems so.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 684
    BT3366 wrote: »
    That's yet another piece of the AVTAK puzzle: The tone is all over the place. You have these stark, realistic and violent deaths followed by or preceded by slapstick like the firetruck chase. OP had its moments like this as well, but the balance wasn't nearly as jarring.
    That's interesting. I feel that way about all the 80s films, with AVTAK being the least jarring of the lot. FYEO, OP, TLD, and LTK feel way more tonally uneven to me.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I don't think anybody has mentioned the funny cop and his Keystone Cops antics. Please get any trace of him out of this film.
    I'd agree with this, too, however.
    echo wrote: »
    Does Stacey cry "James" more than any other Bond girl? It sure seems so.
    Might be a job for the stats thread. Although off the top of my head I can't imagine any closer competition.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 2,919
    Strog wrote: »
    Allowing Godfrey and Chuck to live. As discussed in the 'Final Mission' thread on AVTAK going at the moment, this adds to the odds stacking up against Bond, as his allies drop off.

    Perhaps, but Godfrey's death is more justifiable, since the audience has come to care about the character and his death gives Bond extra reason to defeat Zorin. Chuck is a non-entity whose death is a repeat of Godfrey's and comes off as lazy. His death seems to have been added so the police have more reason to suspect Bond of being a killer, leading in to that stupid scene with San Francisco's finest.
    Erasing it entirely and doing TLD. A pointless response.

    Well no, the point is pretty clear. AVTAK was a waste of cinematic space and was a critical and commercial disappointment. There was no point in doing another traditional-style Bond film with Roger Moore. It was a mistake and added nothing to the series beyond lower box office. It would have made more sense to have let Roger go after OP and bring in a new Bond for TLD, rather than a Goldfinger knockoff. Had the new Bond been Dalton, then he would have enjoyed a longer run. Had it been Brosnan, then he'd have enjoyed a terrific start. Instead the series spun its wheels.
    Nah. AVTAK is high mid-teens enjoyable. DAD is dead last.

    DAD at least has some vitality and a decent first half. AVTAK has neither.

    Incidentally, here are some alternate endings for AVTAK that would vastly improved the film:


  • AntiLocqueBrakesAntiLocqueBrakes The edge
    Posts: 538
    If Zorin pulls up in the blimp, reaches out of the window and fires a rocket into screaming Stacey, the whole movie would have been redeemed.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,057
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    One thing that would turn this one into a masterpiece would be to insert Roger's
    OOOOOWWWOOHHH sound when Mayday flips in on his back and gets on top of him.
    Here's hoping somebody makes a video based on that idea!

    ---

    Nobody has mentioned the horse injection subplot. I enjoy it and it provides the basis for some of the best and most distinctive elements of the film, but they should'vd tied it adequately into the main plotline. Bond is told to investigate Zorin because he might be leaking technology to the Soviets, so he starts looking into his horse injections? It's a bit thin!
    Strog wrote: »
    Here are the changes suggested so far I agree with, some quite minor:

    - Tanya's screaming: I don't mind having a helping of it. In fact based on her character I'd prefer it. Very Saturday matinee heroine. But as @Birdleson pointed out the "James!"es specifically do add up. Although I'd keep the one after May Day dies, when she realizes Bond is alive. That one is nice.
    - Moore's cosmetic work, as a few have noted. The film embraces Bond's age in its bones, so should it have in Bond's appearance.

    (...)

    - The missed opportunity of making San Fran shine photographically. This might be a problem with the US in general, but it's also a problem the 80s films have with all their locations.

    (...)

    - Nix Q's robot.
    - Different, less caricatured actor for Aubergine.

    (...)

    Changes I very much disagree with:

    - Making the film more violent. The film is already actually quite violent (for Bond), and presages the tone of LTK, which I think goes too far (again, for Bond) and ends up coming across as a gimmick. Any more violence here and you'd risk the same. I believe one of Moore's protestations against AVTAK was due to its violence. The strangulation of each Chuck Lee and Godfrey; Zorin feeding the KGB agent to the pump; the mine massacre; Zorin kills directly or is involved in the murder of a lot of people. Note also Moore's tone throughout; grave and growing graver the more the violence stacks up. A testament to Moore's perception of tone and nailing it.
    - Allowing Godfrey and Chuck to live. As discussed in the 'Final Mission' thread on AVTAK going at the moment, this adds to the odds stacking up against Bond, as his allies drop off.
    - Recasting Grace Jones. It would erase a massive chunk of the film's character.
    - Erasing it entirely and doing TLD. A pointless response.
    - Removing Gogol and the Russian angle. I think it contributes to Zorin's loose canon nature and helps establish him as a man without a country, in stark contrast to Bond.
    - Age difference between Zorin/Bond. Again, per the discussion in the other thread, I feel the contrast in age between Rog and Walken adds to the film instead of subtracts.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I don't think anybody has mentioned the funny cop and his Keystone Cops antics. Please get any trace of him out of this film.

    I agree with what I quoted above.

    I'm neutral about California Girls and am fine with Kimberley Jones and the sub. It's early into the film, so a little playfulness is accepted.

    I think fisticuffs are always welcome, but the use of stuntmen in them and in other action scenes should've been covered up much better. Octopussy did. And the warehouse fight is terrible.

    I like the Soviet angle of the story. It sets up Zorin as this maniac that everybody would just prefer to see vanish, even his former employers.

    bondsum wrote: »
    The movie is a total misfire and can't be improved by minor tweaks made here and there. It needs a better story.
    I find that hard to believe. Even with its flaws, there is nothing so terrible about the film or its story that couldn't have been improved with one or two rewrites and better technical execution in certain departments. You make it sound like it was beyond salvation from day one!

    Revelator wrote: »
    Erasing it entirely and doing TLD. A pointless response.

    Well no, the point is pretty clear. AVTAK was a waste of cinematic space and was a critical and commercial disappointment. There was no point in doing another traditional-style Bond film with Roger Moore. It was a mistake and added nothing to the series beyond lower box office. It would have made more sense to have let Roger go after OP and bring in a new Bond for TLD, rather than a Goldfinger knockoff. Had the new Bond been Dalton, then he would have enjoyed a longer run. Had it been Brosnan, then he'd have enjoyed a terrific start. Instead the series spun its wheels.
    This is legitimate point to argue, but I think the goal of this thread is to discuss how to improve each individual film, not how to improve the overall Bond series. Not making AVTAK is not improving it, it's not making it.

    Any film has the potential to be good, as long as it has a reasonably good and interesting premise at its center. AVTAK did. Maybe it turned out fine, or maybe not at all, but that potential was there to make a solid film. At any rate, I think today, a reasonable amount of people can look back on it and appreciate at least some of its individual qualities. So to a degree, it did add something to the series. Maybe not enough for most, but it's not a cinematic black hole, either.
  • Posts: 17,814
    My issue with AVTAK, other than the obvious things like the Moore facelift, Tanya's screaming, Beach Boys in the PTS, Q's robot, etc - is the way the film looks. The cinematography and the way the locations are presented is just so, so bland. I know this is an issue that can be argued with more than one of the John Glen films, but I think AVTAK is the worst of them all in that regard.

    Doesn't stop me from enjoying AVTAK, though! Compared to SP, this one actually has a rewatchability factor.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Totally agree, @Revelator. Skip it entirely and move onto TLD with Dalton.

    Well, @Jeffrey from the Netherlands, we can't all have taste.

    Well, @bondsum, taste is subjective. ;-)
    Birdleson wrote: »
    A VIEW TO A KILL, for all it's zaniness, needs to either be chucked out entirely or accepted for more or less what it is. I have chosen to accept it.

    Here are the minor changes I would instill:

    1. Keep the PTS intact, but have Bond escape in a more grounded manner (no Kimberly Jones, no ice-berg sub).
    2. As someone else mentioned, Moore should have forgone the plastic surgery.
    3. Remove Gogol and the Russian angle.
    4. Entirely cut the fight that Bond and Tibbet have with the guards in the warehouse.
    5. Shorten the SF firetruck chase by half, at least.
    6. In the horse chase scene remove all close-ups of Bond and Zorin in which they are obviously not on horseback, also eliminate electronic obstacle gags.
    7. Remove every instance of Stacey uttering, "James!"
    8. Take out the dirigible sneaking up on and capturing Stacey; that is just goddamned stupid.
    9. Either dump the fight between Bond and the guys breaking into Stacey's home, or replace it with a serious fight scene.
    10. Lose Q's robot.
    11. Chuck Lee's death should not be a repeat of Tibbet's.

    Most of your changes would make the film better, I agree. I don't really mind the Russian angle, but it wasn't necessary.

    With regards to the fight in the warehouse and at Stacy's, I feel the editing is a bit sloppy as well.

    This was cut to get the certificate they were after, but even so don't think it would have been a good scene.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Haven't watched AVTAK FOR ages but seem to remember quite enjoying it.
  • Posts: 787
    My issue with AVTAK, other than the obvious things like the Moore facelift, Tanya's screaming, Beach Boys in the PTS, Q's robot, etc - is the way the film looks. The cinematography and the way the locations are presented is just so, so bland. I know this is an issue that can be argued with more than one of the John Glen films, but I think AVTAK is the worst of them all in that regard.

    Hear hear. The USA has never looked good in a Bond film.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    Overall a very poor effort. Don't know what I'd change as I don't think it is a rescuable film.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 3,333
    An interesting bit of trivia, the home of Stacey Sutton in this movie—which was Dunsmuir House and its gardens is located in Oakland, California—and was first used in Burnt Offerings (1976) and then later as Morningside Cemetary in Phantasm (1979).
  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    Posts: 308
    Jeffrey wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Totally agree, @Revelator. Skip it entirely and move onto TLD with Dalton.

    Well, @Jeffrey from the Netherlands, we can't all have taste.

    Well, @bondsum, taste is subjective. ;-)
    Birdleson wrote: »
    A VIEW TO A KILL, for all it's zaniness, needs to either be chucked out entirely or accepted for more or less what it is. I have chosen to accept it.

    Here are the minor changes I would instill:

    1. Keep the PTS intact, but have Bond escape in a more grounded manner (no Kimberly Jones, no ice-berg sub).
    2. As someone else mentioned, Moore should have forgone the plastic surgery.
    3. Remove Gogol and the Russian angle.
    4. Entirely cut the fight that Bond and Tibbet have with the guards in the warehouse.
    5. Shorten the SF firetruck chase by half, at least.
    6. In the horse chase scene remove all close-ups of Bond and Zorin in which they are obviously not on horseback, also eliminate electronic obstacle gags.
    7. Remove every instance of Stacey uttering, "James!"
    8. Take out the dirigible sneaking up on and capturing Stacey; that is just goddamned stupid.
    9. Either dump the fight between Bond and the guys breaking into Stacey's home, or replace it with a serious fight scene.
    10. Lose Q's robot.
    11. Chuck Lee's death should not be a repeat of Tibbet's.

    Most of your changes would make the film better, I agree. I don't really mind the Russian angle, but it wasn't necessary.

    With regards to the fight in the warehouse and at Stacy's, I feel the editing is a bit sloppy as well.

    This was cut to get the certificate they were after, but even so don't think it would have been a good scene.

    Didn't know that. Hmm, would be interesting to see the original cut then. Thanks for sharing.
  • Posts: 11,189
    One thing I can’t forgive AVTAK for is it’s fairly half-assed approach. Watching it there’s a sense of fatigue that’s difficult to ignore.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    echo wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    That cry of “James” when she is on the hilltop is unintentionally funny.

    Does Stacey cry "James" more than any other Bond girl? It sure seems so.

    Good thing they cut that shower scene when they did. There was a lot more to come.
  • Posts: 1,926
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    One thing I can’t forgive AVTAK for is it’s fairly half-assed approach. Watching it there’s a sense of fatigue that’s difficult to ignore.
    When AVTAK was released, an American critic on a television review series said almost that exact thing. He and the other critic agreed it was tired and said "It's like they said okay, come on guys, it's time to make another Bond film." I never forgot that because it was so dead on.
  • Posts: 4,762
    I used to adore AVTAK, but over the last few years I have come to understand why it is typically criticized. The whole movie sags under the weight of this unidentifiable "grayness" (perhaps due to the locations and an apparent lack of energy throughout the movie). While I still enjoy it on the bases of nostalgia and legitimate entertainment from certain scenes, I would definitely make some changes, though those are difficult for me to define because most would involve removing Roger Moore from the movie. I like Moore's presence in AVTAK too much to suggest that change, so all of my changes would essentially come down to little things like tweaking the underwhelming action scenes or removing the cheesy elements (such as the fire truck chase and the scenes with Pola Ivanova).
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