007: What would you have done differently?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2018 Posts: 23,883
    bondsum wrote: »
    @BAIN123 is right about True Lies having a direct influence on GE. It's huge popularity combined with the biggest budget in movie history up till then, was enough to convince the head honchos that presided over Bond to give GE a huge cash injection in hope that they could also reap what the espionage thriller True Lies had sown.
    @bondsum, are you sure that True Lies had an impact on the budget of GE? It is my understanding that they made that film on a shoestring (relatively speaking) production budget of $50m because MGM wasn't willing to commit any more, for fear that Bond was a fading force. I know they scrapped some big set piece (I think it involved Harrier jets) because it was too similar to True Lies finale.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 3,333
    I'd call doubling the Bond budget a huge cash injection, yes @bondjames. Especially when it was the belief that the laws of diminishing returns had come to roost with the result that, in spite of keeping down the production costs, no profits had been received from the last three Bond films. It was a final roll of the dice by MGM that had seen what could happen when a similar movie had a large budget, and a Bond parody by its own admission. Of course, it's not in the same league budget wise but it's a vast improvement over what the Dalton movies were given to spend.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2018 Posts: 23,883
    I'm not quite sure if was doubled in 'real' (as opposed to nominal) terms, given the 6 year timeframe in between releases.

    Data from The Numbers shows TLD at $40M, LTK at $42M and GE at $60M for production budget information (all nominal and not inflation adjusted data).

    https://www.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/James-Bond#tab=summary

    From what I've read, they were running a very tight ship for GE, because as mentioned they didn't know if Bond would be relevant after LTK's rather dismal showing stateside and the decline in box office over the course of the 80s. Fortunately, their fears were misplaced.
  • Posts: 3,333
    It all depends on which figures one wants to draw upon @bondjames. They do vary from source to source. By the producers own admission (go watch the DVD extras on LTK), they had been making the past 6 Bond movies for roughly the same budget every time. I kind of think you're just splitting hairs as you know precisely what I mean. The movie still had a large cash injection compared to any of the previous 7 Bond movies that preceded it. The fact that Cubby had to up-sticks and shoot LTK in Mexico in a ramshackle studio is testament to just how strapped for money they were on Dalton's last Bond movie.

    Fortunately, their increased budget for GE allowed them to return to England and help retrofit their own studio in a disused aircraft factory and airfield called Leavesden Aerodrome in Hertfordshire. Of course the money had to be all accounted for, right down to every last penny, but that's beside the point. GE still virtually doubled (if it pleases you more) its budget more than any of Moore's last Bond movies or Dalton's.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2018 Posts: 23,883
    @bondsum, I hear you on the Dalton films being on a tight budget. That's certainly apparent, at least to me, while viewing them. I gather the 80s was a time of cost cutting and dialed back ambition. Sadly, the box office followed in the same direction.

    I do recall reading that the GE budget was pretty tight compared to other action fare of the time (including Die Hard and the like), and of course production costs had increased in the six years since LTK. Whatever the reasons, ultimately it more than paid for itself and re-established Bond as a phenomenon.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Absolutely @bondjames. I certainly won't dispute that. GE did wonderful business and re-established Bond as a heavy hitter again as well as pleasing the executives no end, but I won't pretend that True Lies never happened in the interim and played no part in how audiences wanted their next Bond film to look and feel. I was reminded by one of the videos that @BAIN123 posted on GE whereby they showed the same advanced screening of GE that I attended and where they performed a vox-pop afterwards, with certain attendees declaring it wasn't as good as True Lies. Though I wasn't interviewed myself for the Film '95 Bond Special, I'd have said the same thing myself if I had been asked. It wasn't as big and bold as True Lies, but it was a step-up creatively and visually than what Dalton had. But we'll get to that pretty soon.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    GE will indeed be a difficult one for me to be objective about.

    It was a film I watched almost religiously growing up. Despite seeing Connery, Moore etc too GE remained a favourite for decades.

    I genuinely loved that film and simply couldn’t understand why some people didn’t like it.
  • Posts: 3,333
    I take it that you won't be asking to change a single thing about GE then @BAIN123? :)
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    Nope. Perfect in every way.

    *shuts eyes and sticks fingers in ears*

    Ok...........................maybe the end song.................................and Alan Cummin..............and Sean Bean’s ropey accent.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 2,917
    bondsum wrote: »
    A further thought, I don't recall anybody at the time of LTK discussing it being the end of 007 because it had under performed in the US. Of course we had the 6 year hiatus in which these stories began to surface, but I honestly don't recall the press calling for Dalton's head at any time.

    Those who actually saw LTK often gave Dalton good press. Roger Ebert, probably the most influential critic at the time, gave LTK 3 and half stars out of 4 (whereas he'd been lukewarm to TLD) and wrote "On the basis of this second performance as Bond, Dalton can have the role as long as he enjoys it. He makes an effective Bond - lacking Sean Connery's grace and humor, and Roger Moore's suave self-mockery, but with a lean tension and a toughness that is possibly more contemporary."

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    'lean tension' ? Interesting combination.
  • Posts: 3,333
    I always liked Roger Ebert @Revelator. I have quite a few of his review books.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    I think Dalton had something of a lone wolf quality to him. Actually when I last watched Dirty Harry, Eastwood’s mannerisms and expressions reminded me of Dalton (although obviously Eastwood has far more screen charisma).

    Barry Norman described Brosnan as having “cool poise”. Not sure what he thought of Dalton. Wish I’d seen his reviews, though I know he said many years later in an interview with Richard Bacon that he felt Tim “lacked the humour”.

    I get the feeling a lot of people associate Bond humour with one-liners. The latter of which Dalton was never particularly convincing with.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 3,333
    Yes, I find it a strange one @BAIN123. I never originally went to see a Bond movie because of the humour, I went because of the action, thrills and the dames. It used to be just a few throwaway dry lines that suddenly morphed into cheesy, bawdy humour by the Seventies to then outright tomfoolery by the early Eighties. I'm not entirely convinced the fans changed, I think they just ended up drawing an entirely different audience over time. The original fans that used to marvel at the stunts and the cool sophistication were replaced by those that liked to have a good titter at Bond's expense, which is why we have such remarks as it lacks humour or it wasn't very funny.

    Of course, there's the argument that Dalton was just too straitlaced, read that as po-faced or self-effacing, to be considered right for Bond. I don't agree with this view but it's certainly one that many have of him. The difference I'd say between Brosnan's Bond and Dalton's is that the Brozz didn't push himself as an actor over the course of his 4 movies. It was always the same delivery: the tilt of the head, the knowing smile and the squint. There were a few other faces he would pull, but they were from his own stock library of expressions. He had his own seething anger one he liked to use quite a lot too. Personally, I thought Dalton showed us more of multifaceted range over his 2 Bond movies than Brosnan did over his 4, but it's the BO that counts at the end of the day, not the art.

    If I were to use Rotten Tomatoes as any sort of gauge, then I'd say Dalton has picked up some new admirers since '89 and "Licence to Kill" is finally getting some of the love it deserves (albeit slowly). It once used to be an unimpressive 59% on Rotten Tomatoes, but has now climbed to a certified "fresh" with a rating of 77%. Of course that didn't help the BO in 89 or help it turn a healthy profit, but it shows how tastes can change and quickly.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I think Brosnan DID attempt to push himself more as an actor but the results weren't always that convincing.. One of the best examples is the hospital scene from DAD where it just comes off like he's trying too hard to act. He can't really do this sort of intensity very well.



    I have my issues with Dalton and his regular "angy thesp" facial expressions but I think he would have faired better than Brosnan does in scenes like the one above.

    I actually think Brosnan's more restrained demeanour in the scene below works more succesfully.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I think Brosnan DID attempt to push himself more as an actor but the results weren't always that convincing.. One of the best examples is the hospital scene from DAD where it just comes off like he's trying too hard to act. He can't really do this sort of intensity very well.



    I have my issues with Dalton and his regular "angy thesp" facial expressions but I think he would have faired better than Brosnan does in scenes like the one above.

    I actually think Brosnan's more restrained demeanour in the scene below works more succesfully.

    I think the graveyard scene in GE is one of Brosnan's best scenes.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Yeah, I happen to think Brosnan's at his best in GE, but more on that later @BAIN123.
  • Posts: 16,162
    Revelator wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    A further thought, I don't recall anybody at the time of LTK discussing it being the end of 007 because it had under performed in the US. Of course we had the 6 year hiatus in which these stories began to surface, but I honestly don't recall the press calling for Dalton's head at any time.

    Those who actually saw LTK often gave Dalton good press. Roger Ebert, probably the most influential critic at the time, gave LTK 3 and half stars out of 4 (whereas he'd been lukewarm to TLD) and wrote "On the basis of this second performance as Bond, Dalton can have the role as long as he enjoys it. He makes an effective Bond - lacking Sean Connery's grace and humor, and Roger Moore's suave self-mockery, but with a lean tension and a toughness that is possibly more contemporary."

    Siskel, I believe gave the film a reluctant thumbs down, put praised Dalton (amazing since he really only liked Connery), and the stunt work. He felt the film looked dirty and uneven, but was still fairly solid.
  • Posts: 1,917
    [quote="bondsum;883851"
    I might be wrong about this but I think the big movie to compare to LTK would be Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade which was released just shy of 2 weeks prior to the release date of the Bond movie in the US. My guess is that Indiana Jones was still hoovering up all the dollars whilst 007 was getting off to a limp start there.
    [/quote]
    Actually, Last Crusade was the first big summer movie that year (now they come out in April) and came out in May around Memorial Day weekend if I remember right. My buddy and I went to see a matinee after our university finals a couple of weeks later. Then it was Star Trek V, Batman and Lethal Weapon 2 that followed in succession.

    I recall at the time the makers of Lethal Weapon 2 originally scheduled it to open the same weekend as LTK and instead opted to move it up a week so as to not compete, so they were actually worried about Bond, but ended up doing far better at the box office.

    As somebody else mentioned, had they waited until later in the year it would have been open season as the only holiday action picture in '89 was Tango and Cash. That's why I hope they never move back to the blood bath of the summer season as the focus is always on what's new this week and it's easy to get lost. Solo is a prime example of that.

  • Posts: 2,115
    //Actually, Last Crusade was the first big summer movie that year (now they come out in April) and came out in May around Memorial Day weekend if I remember right. My buddy and I went to see a matinee after our university finals a couple of weeks later. Then it was Star Trek V, Batman and Lethal Weapon 2 that followed in succession.//

    In the United States, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade was released May 24, 1989.

    Licence to Kill was release was July 14, 1989.

    Star Trek V: The Final Frontier release date was June 9, 1989.

    Batman release date was June 23, 1989

    Honey I Shrunk the Kids release date was June 23, 1989

    Lethal Weapon II release date was July 7, 1989.

    In its opening weekend (July 14-16), Licence to Kill was No. 4, behind Lethal Weapon II, Batman and Honey I Shrunk the Kids.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Thanks, Alexander Waverly. For Bond it was Honey, I Shrunk the Box Office Grosses.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    In its opening weekend (July 14-16), Licence to Kill was No. 4, behind Lethal Weapon II, Batman and Honey I Shrunk the Kids.
    That's a truly sad statistic.
  • Posts: 7,653
    And the whole box office in the USA for the LTK was comparable with the first weekend BO for Batman.

    LTK just was not interesting enough to be able to compete with the big hitters like Batman and Lethal weapon, bot movie that I find better movies than LTK. And Honey I shrunk the kids was an original quirky comedy.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    bondjames wrote: »
    In its opening weekend (July 14-16), Licence to Kill was No. 4, behind Lethal Weapon II, Batman and Honey I Shrunk the Kids.
    That's a truly sad statistic.
    I guess James Bond was no match for the incomparable Rick Moranis.

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  • Posts: 15,117
    bondsum wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The big movie to compare GE to at the time was True Lies rather than the Die Hard series.

    A parody of James Bond rather than a sequel of an immensely popular and influential American action movie. That in itself is telling.
    I might be wrong about this but I think the big movie to compare to LTK would be Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade which was released just shy of 2 weeks prior to the release date of the Bond movie in the US. My guess is that Indiana Jones was still hoovering up all the dollars whilst 007 was getting off to a limp start there.

    GE didn't have anything to compete with around its release date in late November. Especially as Die Hard with a Vengeance had already been released as far back as 15 May in America, and Batman Forever in 9 June had also been and gone.

    @BAIN123 is right about True Lies having a direct influence on GE. It's huge popularity combined with the biggest budget in movie history up till then, was enough to convince the head honchos that presided over Bond to give GE a huge cash injection in hope that they could also reap what the espionage thriller True Lies had sown.

    I am not saying it had to compete against Vengeance, but that Vengeance was representative of what the American action movies had become: overblown, far fetched, a caricature of itself. The first Die Hard was action movie at its best, its sequels, not so much.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Die Hard With A Vengeance was, imho, an exceptional sequel. Unlike DH2 it tried something different, and was very successful in 1995. However it wasn't a phenomenon like the first film, and it is unreasonable to assume that it could have been. It actually surpassed GE globally at the box office in 1995, despite being R rated.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 2,917
    SaintMark wrote: »
    LTK just was not interesting enough to be able to compete with the big hitters like Batman and Lethal weapon, both movies that I find better movies than LTK. And Honey I shrunk the kids was an original quirky comedy.

    It's more that James Bond himself wasn't interesting enough to directly compete with newer American franchises. The American public had been increasingly losing interest since FYEO, and had LTK been a more formulaic, safer film like AVTAK it would have done just as badly, probably even with Brosnan in the role. It took a hard reboot, a long absence, and the decline of the competing franchises to get people interested again, and even then GoldenEye didn't dare open at remotely the same time as Batman Forever. I will however contend that if LTK had opened in November (like GE) and been blessed with a promotional budget half as large as Batman or Lethal Weapon 2's, it would have performed much better.
    If that happened, I wonder if Bond's six year absence would have played out differently, and whether Dalton would have still returned to the role in '95.
    bondjames wrote: »
    Die Hard With A Vengeance was, imho, an exceptional sequel...It actually surpassed GE globally at the box office in 1995, despite being R rated.

    Happily GE surpassed it in the US and was #6 at the US box office for the year (total gross $106,429,941) whereas Die Hard: With A Vengeance was #11 ($100,012,499). DH opened on May 19, GE on November 17. Wise decision!
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    bondjames wrote: »
    Die Hard With A Vengeance was, imho, an exceptional sequel. Unlike DH2 it tried something different, and was very successful in 1995. However it wasn't a phenomenon like the first film, and it is unreasonable to assume that it could have been. It actually surpassed GE globally at the box office in 1995, despite being R rated.
    I agree about DHWAV. It's a bit larger-than-life than the original and slighly cartoonish in a couple of moments, but it's full of exciting and creative action scenes, with some truly terrific handheld photography (shot all over the streets of New York!) which creates a sense of tension and adrenaline, as well as adding a veneer of realism to the events that unfold on the screen. It's also got a solid and interesting plot with an amusing twist that recalls the original film's true motivation of the bad guys for taking over the building. I also really like the cast. Apart from Willis, Jackson and Irons, you have Larry Bryggman, Graham Greene, Colleen Camp and Kevin Chamberlin. All these people that play policemen feel and look real, not like actors in a movie. That effort to give the movie a bit of a documentary feel pays off very well.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Revelator wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Die Hard With A Vengeance was, imho, an exceptional sequel...It actually surpassed GE globally at the box office in 1995, despite being R rated.

    Happily GE surpassed it in the US and was #6 at the US box office for the year (total gross $106,429,941) whereas Die Hard: With A Vengeance was #11 ($100,012,499). DH opened on May 19, GE on November 17. Wise decision!
    Yes, it just beat it out, and the R rating on DH3 probably had something to do with that stateside (not sure about its foreign rating).
    mattjoes wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Die Hard With A Vengeance was, imho, an exceptional sequel. Unlike DH2 it tried something different, and was very successful in 1995. However it wasn't a phenomenon like the first film, and it is unreasonable to assume that it could have been. It actually surpassed GE globally at the box office in 1995, despite being R rated.
    I agree about DHWAV. It's a bit larger-than-life than the original and slighly cartoonish in a couple of moments, but it's full of exciting and creative action scenes, with some truly terrific handheld photography (shot all over the streets of New York!) which creates a sense of tension and adrenaline, as well as adding a veneer of realism to the events that unfold on the screen. It's also got a solid and interesting plot with an amusing twist that recalls the original film's true motivation of the bad guys for taking over the building. I also really like the cast. Apart from Willis, Jackson and Irons, you have Larry Bryggman, Graham Greene, Colleen Camp and Kevin Chamberlin. All these people that play policemen feel and look real, not like actors in a movie. That effort to give the movie a bit of a documentary feel pays off very well.
    Well said and good points about the slightly documentary flavour. It certainly has that. The vengeful 'brother' ruse element was nicely done too. I'm due a rewatch once they put it out in 4K.
  • //If that happened, I wonder if Bond's six year absence would have played out differently, and whether Dalton would have still returned to the role in '95.//

    I think the hiatus was mostly due to major financial problems at MGM. Eon-Danjaq sued MGM in the middle of it.
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