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But if the bible is demonstrated to be a load of bollocks doesn't the whole house of cards come tumbling down?
I sense you know the truth deep down but for whatever reason you're reluctant to let go. Quite understandable but trust us and go for it old son. The view from here is far more spectacular and expansive when you take off those blinkers. Trade in your 18 inch black and white 4:3 cathode ray telly for a 60 inch 4k plasma and experience vibrant colours and crystal resolution you only dreamt were possible. Technology has moved on since John Logie Baird first saw that flickering image on his screen. Likewise humanity has moved on since some ill educated peasants in the desert cobbled together a book explaining how the universe functioned without any real knowledge of what they were doing.
Sorry about the M word.
From my perspective, Jesus was a philosopher. The same goes for Mohammed, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Mahavira, Confucius, Laozi etc. etc. They come along from time to time.
The similarities within the religions attributed to them are what people should focus on. Those are the universal teachings & principles.
But you can never prove that he doesn't thus argue the religious we haven't got a leg to stand on and, in fairness because we believe in outlandish concepts like logic, reason and evidence, we are forced to hold our hands up and say fair enough.
But we can prove that if he does exist he is a narcissistic, domineering, vindictive, petulant, baby slaughtering psychopath. So why would anyone want to worship and devote their lives to someone like that?
Or he created us and then, like a dead-beat bad, high-tailed it out of the universe to leave us to die, knowing all the pain and suffering that would come our way through his bad design blueprints.
If God existed there would be no way for him to be viewed in a positive light as far as I can imagine.
What does he do that's loving? He allegedly brought you into the world and then what? You just spend the rest of your time dodging death until your luck runs out.
If he's so loving why bother with earth at all? Just have us born straight into heaven and we can all be happy. That would be nice of him wouldn't it if he loves us so much.
Don't be so hard on him, @Thunderpussy. Many of us here have played the Sims computer games and have felt first-hand the satisfaction of creating little beings and watching them wither and whittle down to nothing as we control their day; making them late for work, keep them standing still so they wet themselves in their freshly laundered plants, and not feeding them to watch them starve and fall ill. God is just playing with his toys, toys that happen to be us.
In all serious, the Sims example is an interesting one as we can see that when humans are given control over a population of computerized people it doesn't take long for them to do heinous things to those bits of polygons. Maybe God is just a tinkerer who loves making chaos with his pawns on the grand scale of the universe, and in much the same way you pound your action man into a villainous looking action figure to simulate a battle as a kid, he's shaking the world and throwing us about to achieve much the same goal. I think he needs a hobby, like scrapbooking or stamp collecting (for him it'd have to be something like star or planet collecting though, considering he's the king of the universe and all that). If he had somewhere to channel his negative energies maybe that would stop his killing right quick and we'd finally live in peace?
Don't be foolish, @TheWizardOfIce. If God immediately takes us all to heaven, how's he to know the good from the bad? All the pain and suffering he inflicts on us in life is character building, testing us to see how much we can handle without going postal and heading out on a bloody massacre in the fog of post-traumatic stress with a shotgun slung to our back and twin Glocks nestled in our palms. He puts separate safeguards in the way on top of that, like the baby cancer thing, to make sure that kids feel lucky to be alive right from birth so that they'll respect their time on the earth and the lives of others around them as they grow up. Without cancer humans don't appreciate shit, so get off his messianic arse and show some respect! He should really just send us all to hell for a mandatory service of two years, that would build some serious character in his creations!
With your "let's all go to heaven" theory Jimmy Savile would've ended up there immediately and would've had his full pick of every holy kid in sight to touch under the nose of God himself. You're just asking for trouble there...
A god who give us a brain but doesn't want us to use it: that's the essence of sadism.
A god who tests us all through life, only some less than others: that's the essence of injustice.
Let's say you've always wanted to work for Zuckerberg. And after 20 years of agony, disaster, losing loved ones to illnesses they contracted merely by accident, after losing your home, having to hit the streets begging, nearly freezing to death, being mugged, raped in jail, ..., Zuckerberg finally showed up and said, "Hey, I arranged it all but you passed the test. Welcome to facebook!" I'd tell the man where he can stick his job.
If after a life of misery god were to tell me, "You're worthy now, have a seat and let's have a good time here in heaven", I'd unzip, whip it out, piss all over the place, thank him for the offer and plunge down to good old Satan and his pots full of chilli peppers, his free sexual excesses and his crazy spare-time possessing of some backwards bible belters in the States.
So we have very very strong evidence that he is either not powerful or loving, which does rather put a large hole in the fairy tale.
@patb True, I probably would feel differently if I'd been directly affected. But I can't help thinking of people who are sick, or facing their own personal demons, and their faith is the only thing getting them through it. I really wouldn't want to take that from them. We should be allowed to make fun of religion and it shouldn't have any impact on the way the rest of us live our lives whatsoever but I do think people should still be able to believe what they want, no matter how out there. They should just be encouraged, or even forced, to reconcile their beliefs with the world we live in rather than the other way around.
@DarthDimi That clip was great. The West Wing is one of the shows I've always meant to watch but never got round to it. Might have to change that soon.
If anyone wants to kill a few hours and exercise their search for truth, watch this video where Fry and the late, great Chris Hitchens debate a bunch of church nutters on why religion is a continued poison to humanity's ability to understand, accept and progress:
I mean Islam always seems more like a Cult than a religion to me. There's so many interpretations, rules and directives it's no wonder they get so confused and angry.
Wasn't it the comedian Dara O'Briain who said he 'Didn't believe in God but considered himself, a Catholic?(!)'
I don't know maybe there really is such a huge number of delusional and gullible folk who think there's another life after this one?
Or is it just too much to bear thinking that when themselves or loved ones die they are no different to the pet Gerbil they buried in a shoebox, the dead Fox laying by the side of the motorway or the squashed Fly they hit with a rolled up Daily Mirror...?
Gone forever. Never to return.
Perhaps some people just find that too much to endure and would just rather believe in something they know deep down to be fictitious.
I think Rick Gervais summed it up nicely although I'm probably misquoting him, "How does it feel after you die? Exactly the same as before you were born..."
People have the right to believe anything they want, but, as far as I can see , all of the large religions simply wont leave unbelievers alone and insist on memdling in their matters and judging them via their own moral framework.
I commented earlier that some religious folks take things too literally. I'm also beginning to think that way about those who constantly criticize it too. There are many faiths and many interpretations of god throughout the world. The fundamental question should be why? What are the similarities?
In terms of forced adherence, isn't that very much dependent on the family? Surely some are more 'by the book' than others. That applies to any aspect though, and not just how parents indoctrinate their children to religion. Why must we assume that just because someone is from a religious family that they have been forced to believe?
If we truly have free will (and I am firmly of the belief that we do), then eventually we will 'see the light' as it were, no matter what we were told as minors. Every one has to choose their own path, because we all exit this place alone.
@LeonardPine, it is very much humanity's inability to conceive of a world where there is no meaning to their lives beyond the relationships they face on earth. Surely, there has to be a master plan, a purpose for each of us made by a wise and thoughtful creator? The concept of death is so terrifying and ego crushing (I will die?!) that people feed themselves stories about how it never ends and we're taken to a better place or reincarnated or blah, blah, blah, all to avoid the reality of life. Living life in service of a myth that can't ever be realized, wasting time looking at the clouds while your true existence flashes by without your notice. I feel bad for these people, and it's no great comfort to me to see them waste their time and energy on a raw deal that never pays off.
I'll just leave the rest to Rust Cohle, a philosopher after my own heart:
Does an opinion that life is random result in a more meaningful, purposeful and energized existence? Or does it lead to possible depression, anxiety and lack of resolve?
Could the answer be different for different people depending on one's personality type?
Is it most important that someone lead a purposeful life full of vitality? Does it really matter how one gets there?
All questions I've wrestled with.
I personally like to know the score, whatever it may be. I would rather receive the harshest and most brutal truth than the most dulcet and wondrous lie. It serves me absolutely nothing to navigate life with a blindfold on, and rose-tinted glasses outside of those in case said blindfold slips away.
I personally don't take anything for granted. We are learning new things all the time, and assumptions we have made about the universe are being brought into question as new scientific discoveries are made. The best scientists keep an open mind about what is possible. We know what we know, until we learn something new.
As I said on another thread once, I don't have any answers - just endless questions.