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Once we then exist, IMHO, our existence has no external meaning, We just exist full stop. Its up to each individual to give our own life meaning via the things we do, our family and friends and the toughts we have. And this is another role that religion takes on. It provides ready made meaning without any effort.
An instant meaning of life, an instant father figure, an instant moral framework etc etc, its pretty lazy really, you just sign up, eat what you are told to eat, have sex with you are are told to have sex with, pray when you are told to pray etc, etc, Its a ready made kit like philosophical flat pack furniture. Follow the instructions. Just horrible.
I'm all ears for this list - away you go...
Liverpool FC as a major force in world football.
No you're right, that's all I can come up with right now.
Here's one: that chap called James Bond.
[I'll see myself out]
Elizabeth II is heralded as the Queen, but in truth she is a flesh and blood woman. So why do we place her above anyone else?
NATO only exists because we are told so, and we therefore believe it. But what exactly is it other than a bunch of dusty old blokes making decisions that we believe and follow?
Money isn't actually valuable, it's just bits of worthless paper. We are told it's valuable so we believe it.
We create things to help us function as a species.
And religion is part of that, whether we believe or not.
Other species just believe in real things like eating and breeding. As such they can't possibly evolve, and challenge man as the dominant species.
"The heart of worship is surrender.
Surrender is an unpopular word, disliked almost as much as the word submission. It implies losing, and no one wants to be a loser.
Surrender evokes the unpleasant images of admitting defeat in battle, forfeiting a game, or yielding to a stronger opponent. The word is almost always used in a negative context. Captured criminals surrender to the authorities.
In our competitive world we're taught to never quit trying, never give up, and never give in - so we don't hear much about surrendering. If winning is everything, surrendering is unthinkable.
Yet, the Bible teaches us that rather than trying to win, succeed, overcome, and conquer, we should instead yield, submit, obey, and surrender."
Okay, I'm going to have to cut him off there. We should yield, submit, obey, and surrender. Am I reading a religious pamphlet, or Hitler's "Mein Kampf"? Befehl ist Befehl? No criticism, no peer pressure, no scepticism, no attempts to falsify, no democracy... You are born into slavery and you shall die into slavery. Absolute obedience! The pastor must really love Stalin, Mao and ISIS. You shall do as you are told.
But it gets better:
"And by surrendering to God, we enter into the heart of worship. This is true worship: bringing pleasure to God as we give ourselves completely to him. Surrendering is best demonstrated in obedience, cooperating with your Creator. You say "Yes, Lord" to whatever he asks of you."
Yes, you give yourself completely to god. On your knees, little boy. The pastor, through whom god speaks to you, will tell you what to do. And when you're finished, here's some TNT; strap it on and let's see how much fun we can have.
Folks, give yourself to god, completely; surrender to him, unconditionally! And since god is too shy and cowardly to show himself, what we're really saying is: surrender to the pastors and priests who represent him here on Earth.
"In fact, "No, Lord" is a contradiction. You can't claim Jesus as your Lord when you refuse to obey him. Peter modeled surrender when, after a night of failed fishing, Jesus told him to try again: "Master, we've worked hard all night and haven't caught anything. But because you say so, I will let down the nets." Surrendered people obey God's word, even when it doesn't make sense."
"Even when it doesn't make sense." Like a flat Earth doesn't make sense. Like a 6000 year old Earth full of people doesn't make sense. Like forcing women in inferior positions, simply because they are women, doesn't . make . sense.
Even when it doesn't make sense, you shall obey the lord.
"God is not a cruel slave driver or a bully who uses brute force to coerce us into submission. He doesn't try to break our will, but woos us to himself, so that we might offer it freely to him. God is a lover and a liberator, and surrendering brings freedom, not bondage."
Contradiction galore.
Reading all of the above, I'd say god really IS a cruel slave driver. Surrendering brings freedom? Is that the new "Ignorance is bliss"?
"When we completely surrender ourselves to Jesus, we discover that he is not a tyrant but a savior; not a boss, but a brother; not a dictator, but a friend."
What is left of you when you have completely surrendered to someone? An empty shell? How can you be saved, liberated when you are shackled, chained to a figure of authority whose will you shall obey--even when it doesn't make sense? Is god or jesus then not the very essence of a dictator.
Now if @Dragonpol and @Mendes4Lyfe, whom for many pages now have systematically ignored all of my arguments, silently agreeing with them no doubt, side with the Pastor, then I really have nothing more to say here and this thread has become an isolation cell for the mentally insane. If, which I assume, they disagree with the Pastor, they can at the very least admit that the fact that people like he are allowed to smudge their religion this way, is indeed a problem, a particular challenge for most if not all modern religions, namely to clean out their own kitchen first before they proceed making claims about all the good god and religion brings.
Well, other species don't have an advanced consciousness or the ability to interpret what is around them with critical analysis and awareness of something beyond their next meal or screw, but we do. We have these brains, but some don't want to use them for their proper use.
Sometimes you wonder who really is supreme, humans or animals. Some groups of animals get along better with each other than humanity ever could with our precious consciousness and evolution, and though a dog is just a dog it at least doesn't question if the bone you toss him comes from a sky god who gives bones to his good mutt spawn when they behave. Imagine what animals could do with our brains and none of our tendencies for make-believe or triviality? The apes really would take over and prove that equal chromosomes don't mean equal intellect and efficiency.
Just being part of a crowd can be very uplifting (again, religion realised this) and that provides great atmosphere (Imagine watching the Winbledon final in Centre court with 3 other people). By nature, we have a heard mentality which is good if controlled and focussed but it also makes us dangerous as we hate being the odd one out.
I would be interested to see how many Brits take part in sport over a weekend (in any way) compared to taking part in religion.
@Mendes4Lyfe, nobody on the atheist side here lives a nihilistic existence. We find meaning and purpose in ourselves and what is around us, without having to lie to ourselves every day to feel better. Better to live life aware than always behind the pack, clinging on to quaint comforts and fairy tales to force a false meaning on everything. When you lie to yourself for all the big issues in life, like death and where we come from, where does it end? You end life the star of your own stage show, the punchline of your own joke.
Churches can have their pompous get togethers and kumbayas as they feed themselves on the cannibalistic delusion that they are munching on Christ's body and sipping his blood like some old age vampires. The sense of community for atheists is honest thought and the pursuit of fact, no matter how comforting or terrible it may be. We aren't the types to hide behind an ancient book collecting cobwebs when life gets tough, we face things head on and don't make up lies to soften the world's blows. While the religious pray to get sickness away, those of reason and logic experiment to find cures. While the religious leaf through a thousand year old scripture and proclaim that the earth is young, our kind actually go out and find the truth of how old it really is, with all the evidence. While the religious hold on to old values that regress a progressive society, our kind are those that get gay marriage law pushed through and a greater acceptance of those the bible has cast aside realized.
Let's stack up the accomplishments of those buried in a bible with those who open their eyes and step outside of the box that religion expects you to confine yourself in, dulled of thought and true experience of life at its fullest. We're not at the advanced position we are because of priests or choir boys, it's because of scientists, engineers, mathematicians and all those others who don't live on faith and instead put in the time and effort to move us forward. If it weren't for the secular "nihilists" you would still be in a cave smashing rocks together with the rest of the religious community.
When I look out my window and see a technologically advanced and socially liberal and understanding world blooming, it's not because of the presence of religion, but in spite of it. It's been a long and hard battle for those who think and reason to do what is necessary in the world, a world that has been used by the religious monopoly to silence them for centuries. I wish I could see the evidence you seem to hold for a positive religious impact on the world and how it's brought everyone so close together and improve our species, but I've been outside and seen things with my own eyes and that sight has told me different.
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
-Christopher Hitchens
So you're fine with telling people they should unconditionally surrender to the word of the bible?
And you're also telling me that an atheistic society can have no social unity, no bonding through anything? You're telling me we need to produce false ideas to keep a sense of community intact?
And please, give more detailed thoughts about the Pastor's writings. Go through it, sentence by sentence. Tell me, do you agree that we should always obey the word of god "even when it doesn't make sense". Have the ball for once you actually reply in depth to something, @Mendes4Lyfe, rather than spouting the same rubbish over and over again. I have in my last, I don't know, ten or so posts given emotional, rational, even logical arguments against god, church, religion, and neither you nor @Dragonpol has found the guts to comment on them. And I mean, seriously comment on them.
It's okay to say, "you're right". Ignoring logic, doesn't help your case. Unless, like the Pastor, you feel like things don't have to make sense. :)
As I mentioned before, 74% of 18-34 year olds in Scotland have no religion. Is social cohesion crumbling in Scotland? are crime rates rising as a corelation? do these people think their lives are empty? Are they not fulfilled?
Of course not. Again, its trying to use fear as leverage. The very idea that human beings can cope without religion.
Time for another video.
"You're just doing word salad now."
I am not suggesting for one second that this guy is violent but this inability to think and just blirt out the Islamic line is a key part of what we are up against re fundamentalists.
You see the same things with politics. Certain followers of a particular campaigner are so unable to have their own thoughts on the matter that they can only repeat the buzzwords or slogans of the person in the race. Humans don't seem to like thinking for themselves.
From Prometheus:
"What happened to that man?"
"- He died."
"Why aren't you helping him?"
"They don't want my help. Their God is different than ours."
"Why did he die?"
"Sooner or later everyone does."
"- Like mommy?"
"Like mommy."
"-Where do they go?"
"Everyone has their own word. Heaven, Paradise... Whatever it's called, it's someplace beautiful."
"-How do you know it's beautiful?"
"Cos that's what I choose to believe."
Reminds me of the conversations I used to have with my frustrated grandparents but they could never answer as smartly as here..
Speak for yourself old boy. Nihilism and misanthropy, plus a good deal of indifferent absurdity are my watch words.
Long live the Lizard God-King.
I'm with you on the misanthrope thing for sure. There's a reason my preferred interactions with humans are through text on a computer and not in person. A crawling under the skin happens and I revolt against the proximity to other mortal beings. Maybe I should join up with this Lizard King you speak of. He's not human (from what I hear) so I already prefer him to most other options.
Then religion is redundant. At best.
I agree. Just don't mess with me and I'm ok with you.
Simply believing in God or an afterlife doesn't have to directly lead to hatred and malice. It's true many religious groups spew unnecessary hatred towards women, gay people, etc., but just being a theist doesn't have to directly relate to that. This is why I shy away from organized religion; they almost always have stipulations I don't like and find wrong. But the belief of God, afterlife, or whatever else doesn't automatically make someone hateful. That's just ignorant.