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The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

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  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,585
    Well @patb I think @Thrasos said a lot more in his post than just that, so hopefully he addressed his own stance.
  • patbpatb
    edited July 2017 Posts: 4,617
    @Benny I am so sorry for your loss. A very brave and personal post. Thank you.

    The idea that there is a reason behind everythig that happens in the universe is perverse and has serious implications (both within personal lives and on a cosmic scale).
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,265
    A very moving post, @Benny. I still feel sorry for your loss and as for that nurse, who probably didn't know any better, I hope she learned a lesson that day. You don't apologize for what happened. You don't seek some rationale for it in the spiritual realm. If there is someone who was pulling the strings, then that someone committed a crime which he, as you correctly stated, will have to answer for.

    Time to take god to court.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It is a heart-breaking story.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,171
    I appreciate the sentiment. And know it's genuine. I rarely tell the story, and I certainly don't seek sympathy. It just reminded me in the context of the post why I lost faith in a higher being. That's my religious story.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Very sorry for your loss @Benny and thanks for sharing a deeply personal story. I can't imagine how devastating it must have been.

    There is some evidence to suggest our mental outlook and positivity has an effect on how we perceive the world and react to it. Idiomatically the 'glass is half full vs. empty ' or 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' arguments. Events such as this can have a large impact on how someone perceives life and engages with the tangible world, understandably. There is no question that we are changed forever by such an experience.

    I have seen instances of some actually 'finding faith' on account of great personal loss. I've never questioned that, although it's not a path I would choose. Not because I have a grudge against 'a hypothetical god' for not being eternally kind (there is enough evidence of suffering and injustice to suggest that such a 'conscious' being just doesn't exist), but also because there is insufficient evidence of 'cause and effect'.

    Regarding the nurse's comment, it was extremely callous in the circumstances, but she may actually have been trying to bring comfort. As I mentioned earlier, religion is an imprecise approximation for some. She could just as easily have said "we still don't fully understand the ways of the universe or the human body despite huge advances in science". Irrespective, it was an insensitive thing to say and should have been kept to herself. A religious person would say she should be "forgiven" for her remarks.

    Not to start another discussion, but I was actually reminded of a conversation I had with a younger female cousin a few years back about abortion. She is a smart person but a bit of an advocate for rights and what not. She espoused that it was a 'women's right to choose'. I indicated that as far as I am concerned there is evidence that life begins in the womb. I'm also an advocate for personal rights. So I don't have a problem with a couple choosing to abort if they must (hopefully having given enough thought to the consequences), but I would prefer that the broader discussion always be framed as a 'woman's right to choose to kill a baby'. Her jaw dropped as the ramifications of what I said dawned on her. It shocked me that she hadn't previously considered it in those terms.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,265
    I am pro-choice, but obviously I too want a woman to understand the full extent of her decision. Again though, I am pro-choice.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    It's the marketing of it that I find repulsive.

    Choose all you want, but let's be clear about what you're doing.

    I don't have time for sugar coating.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2017 Posts: 24,265
    @bondjames
    I agree that abortion has to be marketed. It's not a "business".
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @DarthDimi, just to clarify my thinking: the fact that my cousin (who hasn't had kids and never been pregnant) saw abortion as a right without realizing the consequence of that right is what upset me. Especially because she's not alone. Some women see it as some sort of 'liberation' call when they go around marching for it. They are committing as much of a crime as a 'hypothetical god' when they do it imho. It's just that it is allowed on compassionate grounds.

    It shouldn't be a rallying cry for female empowerment. Nothing to be proud of here.

    It's the inconsistency in it that rankles me.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Benny, that was very brave to share, and I'm so sorry to hear it. My mother experienced something not unlike your wife before I was born and had two miscarriages that would've given me siblings. I was the third and last attempt for my mother and father, after which point they didn't want to risk having kids any more, and in the first few months of my birth they nearly lost me too. You definitely see how that kind of tragedy affects people forever afterward, as I know it must've you, to appreciate all the moments there are with someone you bring into the world for those you've lost.

    My mother became extra maternal on instinct when I got older, because she thought she'd never get to have a kid and thus became more protective over me, especially after my near-death. I've never really spoken to her about the miscarriages in detail, as I don't like to bring up the memory, so I don't know how the experiences may've changed her outlook on life spiritually and if she lost faith in those moments. She's very much an optimistic person, and I think just hopes there's a silver lining at the end, without placing it in any God's hands; she also always says, "I believe we live in hell," underlining that the next place has to be better, heaven or not. She's never been very religious, however, and knows my beliefs and accepts them, and even entertains some of my rants at times. A damn good mother.
  • ThrasosThrasos
    edited July 2017 Posts: 1,469
    patb wrote: »
    "I can't prove that God exists, but I don't think it's possible to prove that God doesn't exist."

    I can't prove that Father Chrstmas exists, but I don't think it's possible to prove that Father Christmas doesn't exist.

    I can't prove that the tooth fairy exists, but I don't think it's possible to prove that the tooth fairy doesn't exist.

    I can't prove that unicorns exists, but I don't think it's possible to prove that unicorns don't exist.

    I can't prove that Darth Vader exists etc etc

    How many times are we going to see this come up. We have done this to death!! The fact that it keeps coming up is evidence, in itself, of the real lack of thought and consistancy regarding how those of faith seek to justify their own delusions. If people are willing to believe in things on the basis that their non existance can't be proved, then there is not much more to be said.
    @patb, no, there's isn't a Father Christmas or tooth fairy, but parents sometimes play them for their kids. Unicorns don't exist--no one has seen them. And Darth Vader is only a movie character.

    You think I have delusions I'm trying to justify? No, I know in a factual way what my spiritual experience is and could tell you and everyone about it at length; there is some of what you could call "faith" to it, but there's also probably more proving it out, almost scientifically, in my living. I'm not interested in delusions but it reality, possibly more reality than a lot of people are willing to face. "Lack of thought and consistancy"? I've given a lot of thought to these things most of my life, in the search for truth and meaning. Mindfulness is also central to my daily live or practice. I think if you could prove with evidence that God or a higher power doesn't exist, you would have.

    I have my experience, and you have yours--each person has their own. Some things in life can be proven, others cannot! Can we agree that not everything can be proven on a scientific basis, that there are some unexplained elements to life and the possibility of other levels of being (including what some people have called "heaven", for instance)? And must we all agree on the question of "God or no God"? Why would it be important to agree on that anyway? If you're not open to those possibilities, fine with me--that doesn't change my experience, which is both spiritual and down to earth.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Bond is obviously a Scientologist
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,348
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    Bond is obviously a Scientologist

    It's more likely that he'd fight against it. Authority: John Gardner's Scorpius (1988) and the Society of the Meek Ones.
  • ThrasosThrasos
    Posts: 1,469
    Half monk, half hitman?!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    All just red herrings. ;-)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    That comment actually makes me wonder, what do our Christian friends or at least fellows of faith think of Scientology? I guess we've only got @Dragonpol and @Thrasos left to answer this.

    I find it interesting that on the ghost thread the believers hated mediums because they thought they were peddling lies or were delusional folks, when the non-believers thought that mediums and believers were really carrying the same symptoms of a delusion or were seeing things that weren't there. Because of this it was jarring for believers to be calling out those who said they'd talked to ghosts, folks whose experiences could help support their theories in an afterlife, but that they still stood against anyway.

    I'd be interested to see if the same is true for religion and the Christians find the Scientology "faith" to be the kind of bag of tricks some atheists view organized religion to be, creating a weird blurred line where to the side of the non-believers Christians and Scientologists don't come off as that different.
  • patbpatb
    edited July 2017 Posts: 4,617
    @Thrasos

    "Unicorns don't exist"

    You can't prove they don't exist. Therefore, they may exist. Why does this reasoning (your reasoning , not mine) apply to God but not unicorns?

    How can you right unicorns off so quickly? (and unicorns didn't invent cancer) I have more time for unicorns than God.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Evolutionarily speaking, horses or their ancestors of another time could've actually had horns that fell out of favor with their domestication away from defense, so the idea of a unicorn isn't really that balmy.
  • ThrasosThrasos
    Posts: 1,469
    Yeah, even checking Wikipedia just now, they say "The unicorn is a legendary creature..." And that damned Voldemort sucked the blood of a unicorn! How could he do that. About Scientology, I don't know much about it...I just heard or read that they do "clearings", "audits" or something like that to get rid of negative structures in consciousness, to free up the mind. And I'm not into mediums myself.

    One question that came to mind is, "Can the human mind know everything?" As amazing and useful a creation or organ that it is, I don't think so...I think there are things beyond the level of the present limits of the human mind that we don't know about. I think human consciousness and awareness has evolved over the last number of centuries, and with it our awareness of the solar system, galaxy and beyond. Probably in the centuries ahead people will have even greater awareness and our "world" will expand more.

    I'm kind of done here in terms of trying to prove or disprove. I'm more interested in what I can actually experience, or in what your experience is, and I respect you whether you're an atheist, religious, or spiritual (for the record, I guess you could say I have a spiritual side but not religious in any sense).
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I think the notion of a unicorn being too loony in comparison with a god is a moot point, considering they're both ripped from worlds of fantasy, but whatever. I must say I'm endlessly amused that a unicorn is out of the discussion and just too zany for the religious to bother entertaining, but the sky fairy is 100% sound and within the realm of the possible. That's a knee slapper.

    As for how our brains will develop in the next many centuries, I don't believe our species will have many more centuries after this. I think the burn out of the species is on the fast track, and it's only getting hotter.
  • patbpatb
    edited August 2017 Posts: 4,617
    What we experience is not connected to what exsits. We all know that humans are capable of experiencing many things but thats down, by defintion, to their perceptions. To perceive something to exist is rather different for it to exist in its own right. To offer ones own perceptions as evidence tends to show there is no other evidence.

    I have never heard an atheist say " I dont perceive there is a God, therefore there is not one"

    "Can the human mind know everything?"

    No because we will neve know what "everything" is. Like, do unicorns exist for example. But an ignorant mind is not an excuse to fill the void with a sky fairy. It provides motivation to learn more about the real World (rather than a fantasy one).

    One final point, which ever religion you believe in, you are in a minority. So, therefore, you are telling all those from other faiths that their perceptions are wrong. They are mistaken. If they can be mistaken, why cant you. All those who perceived Thor to exist? They were all wrong? But their evidence is exactly what you have. Just perceptions.

    Wiki describes Thor as a myth. But when does a God become a myth? When people stop believing. Nothing to do with whether they actully exist. There is nothing you can offer re your God that seperates him/her from all previous Gods : apart from

    "Yes, but my God really does exist" - which, of course, is what all previous believers claimed.

    I look forward to the day when Wiki can relegate the current crop of Gods to the same status as Thor.

    I know this thread grew from the Ghost thread and there are direct comparisons: not one shred, not one tiny. microscopic shred of proper evidence can be offered.


  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    WTF !!

    Father Christmas doesn't exist ????!!!!!
  • patbpatb
    edited August 2017 Posts: 4,617
    Don't worry. I know plenty of people who have seen him. They have experienced him: therefore, he must exist.

    I would pay £10 for a 5 min chat with God in Debenhams in mid Dec! Not sure if I would get a present though.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,265
    Of course Father Christmas exists. And when your parents told you otherwise, they were just being bigots, haters, infidels.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,585
    I have no faith, but as a baby I was christened into the Church of England.

    When I was about to marry a catholic girl I had to attend meetings with the priest who was marrying us (my wife cared far more about this than I did). I recall asking him direct questions about God and the catholic faith, and he pointedly said (something like) 'I accept other religious persuasions, but I happen to know we are right."

    He wasn't talking about other religions outside of Christianity, he was talking outside of the Catholic faith. He was basically rejecting every interpretation other than the Catholic viewpoint. Which follows on from what @patb said.

    Then I wondered why I was being hypocritical and marrying in a church? Why do I accept invitations to other people's weddings in church? Why do I celebrate Easter and Christmas? ( I know gift giving is older than Christianity, but I also have to accept that we do it because it's a Christian celebration ). Is it hypocritical?
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Not for me,but I am more of a believer,also being Catholic,as is my girlfriend,so I cant answer that from a neutral viewpoint, Nackers.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The great thing about the COE is that even bishops in it, don't believe whole sections of the bible. So it's a great club for anyone. Believers or non believers.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,265
    It's not hypocritical, @NicNac, since you most likely see it as part of a tradition others want to uphold, and you merely humour them with your presence. You can participate in the actual ceremony since it's nothing more or less special to you than say the rice throwing when a married couple exits the church or the throwing of the flowers. Just another thing that people do and continue to do, not knowing why, just following tradition. You could make a fuss about not wanting to say certain things and such, but you value your wife more and so you play along. Hypocritical would be to marry her while you're actually in love with someone else.

    The gift giving is, anno 2017, just a by-product of our obsession with being an active part of the commercial clockwork of society. Any excuse seems good these days to come home with presents. Christmas and Easter have been reduced to a checklist thing on our calenders. Most people are just happy with having those few days of vacation.

    Am I hypocritical for teaching in a christian school? I don't think so. Most of my students are atheists anyway. And when the opportunity came along, I wasn't going to let it pass because of a few words dedicated to our so-called christian faith in our mission statement. In reality, I don't have to deal with anything even remotely christian in my daily teaching activities and I have complete freedom to teach my science and screw creationism. Plus, I get to destroy the system from the inside. :-) Now if they'd start bothering me with any christian BS, I might have some words with my headmasters. I can safely say I'm a valued teacher and they'd rather see me stay as an outspoken atheist than leave as a failed christian. Ha! Must be difficult for many of our American friends to understand, but schools with a religious identity rarely have one here in Belgium. :-)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    The great thing about the COE is that even bishops in it, don't believe whole sections of the bible. So it's a great club for anyone. Believers or non believers.

    But why would you bother if you didn't 'believe' it all? It's not like going to church and praying is any fun is it?

    If you didn't think you would burn in hell why would you not spend all your life watching telly, drinking and wanking?

    Thankfully because I don't believe I have been able to dedicate myself exclusively to the above pursuits.

    Superficial and pointless existence? Absobloodyexactly!
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