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The idea that there is a reason behind everythig that happens in the universe is perverse and has serious implications (both within personal lives and on a cosmic scale).
Time to take god to court.
There is some evidence to suggest our mental outlook and positivity has an effect on how we perceive the world and react to it. Idiomatically the 'glass is half full vs. empty ' or 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' arguments. Events such as this can have a large impact on how someone perceives life and engages with the tangible world, understandably. There is no question that we are changed forever by such an experience.
I have seen instances of some actually 'finding faith' on account of great personal loss. I've never questioned that, although it's not a path I would choose. Not because I have a grudge against 'a hypothetical god' for not being eternally kind (there is enough evidence of suffering and injustice to suggest that such a 'conscious' being just doesn't exist), but also because there is insufficient evidence of 'cause and effect'.
Regarding the nurse's comment, it was extremely callous in the circumstances, but she may actually have been trying to bring comfort. As I mentioned earlier, religion is an imprecise approximation for some. She could just as easily have said "we still don't fully understand the ways of the universe or the human body despite huge advances in science". Irrespective, it was an insensitive thing to say and should have been kept to herself. A religious person would say she should be "forgiven" for her remarks.
Not to start another discussion, but I was actually reminded of a conversation I had with a younger female cousin a few years back about abortion. She is a smart person but a bit of an advocate for rights and what not. She espoused that it was a 'women's right to choose'. I indicated that as far as I am concerned there is evidence that life begins in the womb. I'm also an advocate for personal rights. So I don't have a problem with a couple choosing to abort if they must (hopefully having given enough thought to the consequences), but I would prefer that the broader discussion always be framed as a 'woman's right to choose to kill a baby'. Her jaw dropped as the ramifications of what I said dawned on her. It shocked me that she hadn't previously considered it in those terms.
Choose all you want, but let's be clear about what you're doing.
I don't have time for sugar coating.
I agree that abortion has to be marketed. It's not a "business".
It shouldn't be a rallying cry for female empowerment. Nothing to be proud of here.
It's the inconsistency in it that rankles me.
My mother became extra maternal on instinct when I got older, because she thought she'd never get to have a kid and thus became more protective over me, especially after my near-death. I've never really spoken to her about the miscarriages in detail, as I don't like to bring up the memory, so I don't know how the experiences may've changed her outlook on life spiritually and if she lost faith in those moments. She's very much an optimistic person, and I think just hopes there's a silver lining at the end, without placing it in any God's hands; she also always says, "I believe we live in hell," underlining that the next place has to be better, heaven or not. She's never been very religious, however, and knows my beliefs and accepts them, and even entertains some of my rants at times. A damn good mother.
You think I have delusions I'm trying to justify? No, I know in a factual way what my spiritual experience is and could tell you and everyone about it at length; there is some of what you could call "faith" to it, but there's also probably more proving it out, almost scientifically, in my living. I'm not interested in delusions but it reality, possibly more reality than a lot of people are willing to face. "Lack of thought and consistancy"? I've given a lot of thought to these things most of my life, in the search for truth and meaning. Mindfulness is also central to my daily live or practice. I think if you could prove with evidence that God or a higher power doesn't exist, you would have.
I have my experience, and you have yours--each person has their own. Some things in life can be proven, others cannot! Can we agree that not everything can be proven on a scientific basis, that there are some unexplained elements to life and the possibility of other levels of being (including what some people have called "heaven", for instance)? And must we all agree on the question of "God or no God"? Why would it be important to agree on that anyway? If you're not open to those possibilities, fine with me--that doesn't change my experience, which is both spiritual and down to earth.
It's more likely that he'd fight against it. Authority: John Gardner's Scorpius (1988) and the Society of the Meek Ones.
I find it interesting that on the ghost thread the believers hated mediums because they thought they were peddling lies or were delusional folks, when the non-believers thought that mediums and believers were really carrying the same symptoms of a delusion or were seeing things that weren't there. Because of this it was jarring for believers to be calling out those who said they'd talked to ghosts, folks whose experiences could help support their theories in an afterlife, but that they still stood against anyway.
I'd be interested to see if the same is true for religion and the Christians find the Scientology "faith" to be the kind of bag of tricks some atheists view organized religion to be, creating a weird blurred line where to the side of the non-believers Christians and Scientologists don't come off as that different.
"Unicorns don't exist"
You can't prove they don't exist. Therefore, they may exist. Why does this reasoning (your reasoning , not mine) apply to God but not unicorns?
How can you right unicorns off so quickly? (and unicorns didn't invent cancer) I have more time for unicorns than God.
One question that came to mind is, "Can the human mind know everything?" As amazing and useful a creation or organ that it is, I don't think so...I think there are things beyond the level of the present limits of the human mind that we don't know about. I think human consciousness and awareness has evolved over the last number of centuries, and with it our awareness of the solar system, galaxy and beyond. Probably in the centuries ahead people will have even greater awareness and our "world" will expand more.
I'm kind of done here in terms of trying to prove or disprove. I'm more interested in what I can actually experience, or in what your experience is, and I respect you whether you're an atheist, religious, or spiritual (for the record, I guess you could say I have a spiritual side but not religious in any sense).
As for how our brains will develop in the next many centuries, I don't believe our species will have many more centuries after this. I think the burn out of the species is on the fast track, and it's only getting hotter.
I have never heard an atheist say " I dont perceive there is a God, therefore there is not one"
"Can the human mind know everything?"
No because we will neve know what "everything" is. Like, do unicorns exist for example. But an ignorant mind is not an excuse to fill the void with a sky fairy. It provides motivation to learn more about the real World (rather than a fantasy one).
One final point, which ever religion you believe in, you are in a minority. So, therefore, you are telling all those from other faiths that their perceptions are wrong. They are mistaken. If they can be mistaken, why cant you. All those who perceived Thor to exist? They were all wrong? But their evidence is exactly what you have. Just perceptions.
Wiki describes Thor as a myth. But when does a God become a myth? When people stop believing. Nothing to do with whether they actully exist. There is nothing you can offer re your God that seperates him/her from all previous Gods : apart from
"Yes, but my God really does exist" - which, of course, is what all previous believers claimed.
I look forward to the day when Wiki can relegate the current crop of Gods to the same status as Thor.
I know this thread grew from the Ghost thread and there are direct comparisons: not one shred, not one tiny. microscopic shred of proper evidence can be offered.
Father Christmas doesn't exist ????!!!!!
I would pay £10 for a 5 min chat with God in Debenhams in mid Dec! Not sure if I would get a present though.
When I was about to marry a catholic girl I had to attend meetings with the priest who was marrying us (my wife cared far more about this than I did). I recall asking him direct questions about God and the catholic faith, and he pointedly said (something like) 'I accept other religious persuasions, but I happen to know we are right."
He wasn't talking about other religions outside of Christianity, he was talking outside of the Catholic faith. He was basically rejecting every interpretation other than the Catholic viewpoint. Which follows on from what @patb said.
Then I wondered why I was being hypocritical and marrying in a church? Why do I accept invitations to other people's weddings in church? Why do I celebrate Easter and Christmas? ( I know gift giving is older than Christianity, but I also have to accept that we do it because it's a Christian celebration ). Is it hypocritical?
The gift giving is, anno 2017, just a by-product of our obsession with being an active part of the commercial clockwork of society. Any excuse seems good these days to come home with presents. Christmas and Easter have been reduced to a checklist thing on our calenders. Most people are just happy with having those few days of vacation.
Am I hypocritical for teaching in a christian school? I don't think so. Most of my students are atheists anyway. And when the opportunity came along, I wasn't going to let it pass because of a few words dedicated to our so-called christian faith in our mission statement. In reality, I don't have to deal with anything even remotely christian in my daily teaching activities and I have complete freedom to teach my science and screw creationism. Plus, I get to destroy the system from the inside. :-) Now if they'd start bothering me with any christian BS, I might have some words with my headmasters. I can safely say I'm a valued teacher and they'd rather see me stay as an outspoken atheist than leave as a failed christian. Ha! Must be difficult for many of our American friends to understand, but schools with a religious identity rarely have one here in Belgium. :-)
But why would you bother if you didn't 'believe' it all? It's not like going to church and praying is any fun is it?
If you didn't think you would burn in hell why would you not spend all your life watching telly, drinking and wanking?
Thankfully because I don't believe I have been able to dedicate myself exclusively to the above pursuits.
Superficial and pointless existence? Absobloodyexactly!