The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

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  • Posts: 4,617
    Interesting , desperate quotes coming form representatives of the C of E saying that kust because people said they had no religion does not make them atheists.

    The survey was cleverly worded as atheist is still considered to be a taboo word by some so the options included "any other religion" and "no religion".

    It really cheered my up but the best thing is the big bias in the figures towards the young. These guys will grow up and not spread religion to their kids etc etc

    Just a matter of time

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited September 2017 Posts: 28,694
    @patb, newer generations with a more progressive focus and less of an emphasis on religion will definitely have a great impact, or should. None of us will live to see a world weaned off of religion, but the hope for better generations is very clear and positive. Statistics showing the rise of an aware and non-brainwashed public is great, and people no longer swallow comments like, "It's just a test from God" and all the other hogwash from the church that justifies murders, poverty or natural disasters.

    It's taken a long time to pull society back to what it should be after the regression of religion and, though I'm cynical, it's a great feeling to look around and see increases in human rights to those that were oppressed by a barbaric book for so many centuries. We still have people seeing angels in clouds and in the window cleaner on buildings, but we're getting there little by little. We just need to keep being more vocal and advocative of progression, not allowing religious folks to use their "freedom of religion" to hold society back any more.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,617
    One of the weaknesses with organised religion is its refusal/reluctance to change and this will be another factor. Modern society is moving quickly - gay rights a good example and religion simply cant keep up with these changes. They get so bogged down with internal politics (female vicars?) that by the time a decision has been made, society has moved on even further.

    But its like snakes and ladders. One day you hear good news and then today, Rees-Mogg was interviewed: A perfect example of a minority (via religion) attempting to enforce it's own morals onto the rest of the population:


    He said he was against same-sex marriage. Asked about this, he replied:

    " I’m a Catholic, I take the teaching of the Catholic church seriously. Marriage is a sacrament and the view of what marriage is is taken by the church, not parliament. I support the teaching of the Catholic church. The marriage issue is the important thing, this is not how people arrange their lives ...

    The teaching of the Catholic church is completely clear. The marriage issue is the important thing. This is not how people arrange their lives. It’s that marriage is a sacrament, and a sacrament is under the authority of the church, not of the state. This is exactly the argument that Thomas Moore made in opposition to the marriage of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn."
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    23.jpg
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I pray that there will be more atheists
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    I went to church this morning liked the sermon about giving back any one else go and what was the sermon about?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I went to church this morning liked the sermon about giving back any one else go and what was the sermon about?

    You need a sermon about using punctuation. ;-)

    And so you went to church this morning. The priest / pastor / some guy told you about giving back. Well, good for you.

    Now, returning to 2017, where you don't need some guy to rant in some church about things that are essentially logical...
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I pray that there will be more atheists

    We're on the rise.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I pray that there will be more atheists

    We're on the rise.

    So is the terminal decline of humanity. Could there be a link I wonder?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I pray that there will be more atheists

    We're on the rise.

    So is the terminal decline of humanity. Could there be a link I wonder?

    Said decline being, in part, caused by religion
    - keeping people uneducated worldwide;
    - causing people to wage wars over their religious beliefs;
    - dictating a twisted morality so that folks make one mistake after the other;
    - ... ?

    There's a link, just not between the "terminal decline of humanity" and the small percentages of freed minds the likes of Brady and myself represent here. ;-)
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I've often wondered, if God is all powerful and controls everything, why do
    Religious people have insurance ? Isn't everything by his will ?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited September 2017 Posts: 18,281
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I pray that there will be more atheists

    We're on the rise.

    So is the terminal decline of humanity. Could there be a link I wonder?

    Said decline being, in part, caused by religion
    - keeping people uneducated worldwide;
    - causing people to wage wars over their religious beliefs;
    - dictating a twisted morality so that folks make one mistake after the other;
    - ... ?

    There's a link, just not between the "terminal decline of humanity" and the small percentages of freed minds the likes of Brady and myself represent here. ;-)

    You've not heard of the work done by Christian missionaries over the centuries then I take it?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I've often wondered, if God is all powerful and controls everything, why do
    Religious people have insurance ? Isn't everything by his will ?

    God set things in motion then left us to our own freewill. Inevitably, bad things will happen.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    so he's not all powerful ?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited September 2017 Posts: 18,281
    so he's not all powerful ?

    He left us to our own freewill after setting things in motion. He is still all-powerful, but we and the world we inhabit are not.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I pray that there will be more atheists

    We're on the rise.

    So is the terminal decline of humanity. Could there be a link I wonder?

    @Dragonpol, to quote the late, great Christopher Hitchens:

    “Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.”

    The world isn't perfect, but I think I'd be even more cynical if I were alive half a decade or a century ago. In just one century (!) the human population has increased the role of women in all centers of life (including labor spheres and suffrage), has achieved equal rights to gay partners in major nations, has exposed the crimes of major churches that were hidden in the shadows through their sick power, and has continued to uphold the scientific fact and propagation of non-propagandized messaging to combat the continuing delusion of the bible.

    All these things we did despite religion's attempts to tell us that people weren't equal, that women weren't the same as men, that gays were Satan's play things, and that science and the irrefutable evidence of fossil records and superposition were all falsities made by those who stand in the way of "religious rights." I feel proud to live in an age where, when creationists come on TV, their thoughts on the young earth, the sins of gays and the creation of humanity are made into compilation videos as millions of people the world over laugh at their insane beliefs.

    In the information age, where young kids can free themselves from the brainwashing their parents suffered in the name of tradition, I have great expectations that secular thought and the atheist community as a whole will continue to grow as the truth continues to leak out. I don't think we will all personally live to see the beautiful day when religion is cast aside as irrelevant and false, but the stepping stones to that day are being set right this second.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I've often wondered, if God is all powerful and controls everything, why do
    Religious people have insurance ? Isn't everything by his will ?

    God set things in motion then left us to our own freewill. Inevitably, bad things will happen.

    Ah, a deist, eh? How does a religious person have faith that God will intervene in their lowest points and provide salvation to them and their brothers and sisters if he hasn't bothered to help you since he "birthed" you into the world? In addition, why can't he step back in to help us when we go wrong? Centuries of poverty, racism, genocide and other man-made terror just weren't enough for him to hit the reset button or come and help us? What about all the terror his created earth has wrought, with devastating storms, climate disasters and the spread of disease? God can't step in and turn Hurricane Irma away? Why? Maybe he's just a jackass who can't man up and go back to the drawing board on universe creation, despite the fact that he did that in Noah's time quite easily (has he gotten even lazier?).

    If one is a deist, one must believe that God has been removed from the picture since the creation of man, correct? How then does that explain God's attempts to intervene like in his drowning of man during Noah's time (because he just couldn't stand not being believed in) or in his attempt to impact humanity by sending Jesus? Pretty invasive responses to his creations, no? Or can the religious pick and choose moments where God intervened to suit their needs, like how they cherry pick the small amount of good from the gaping hole of bad that's been done in religion's name?

    These logic olympics are gold medal level.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited September 2017 Posts: 18,281
    Prayer of intercession (the action of intervening on behalf of another) are the answer to your points. God has intervened on our behalf many times in the past and will do so in the future. We are not left alone in that sense, though he has entrusted us with freewill to act as we please for fair means and foul. That is what makes the world what it is, for better or worse.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    so he's not all powerful ?

    He left us to our own freewill after setting things in motion. He is still all-powerful, but we and the world we inhabit are not.

    I hate to cut the legs out from under your infantile statement by citing the tired old chestnut of baby cancer.

    Do they get that through a choice made of their own freewill when they are in the womb or due to laws of chemistry and biology set in motion by - yep you've guessed it folks - the all loving, all powerful, all round top bloke God himself?
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Prayer of intercession (the action of intervening on behalf of another) are the answer to your points. God has intervened on our behalf many times in the past and will do so in the future. We are not left alone in that sense.

    I suppose it's too much to expect you to back up this drivel with anything approaching proven examples and verifiable evidence?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Are you in the medical profession by any chance?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited September 2017 Posts: 18,281
    I take it you have never heard of Biblical archaeology?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology

    I might as well ask you where is the verifiable evidence that God doesn't exist?


  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Prayer of intercession (the action of intervening on behalf of another) are the answer to your points. God has intervened on our behalf many times in the past and will do so in the future. We are not left alone in that sense, though he has entrusted us with freewill to act as we please for fair means and foul. That is what makes the world what it is, for better or worse.

    So...God hasn't left us to our own devices then? Which is it? Either he helps, or he doesn't; if he wants to or can help, where is he and if he doesn't, well screw him. ;)

    I don't subscribe to this BS that God has to test us with death and misery to prove our worth as good and abiding folks; that if we stand by him in the lows he forces us to fall towards, we are paid salvation. Seeing what he did to Job, he and Satan aren't too far apart.

    I saw Joel Osteen this week rationalizing (funny word for a religious speaker, I know) that what has happened in Texas is God's test for humanity's endurance. Of the 50 plus who were unable to survive and were drowned in the storm, what has God to say? "Sorry, you weren't prepared enough for the surprise storm my world sent your way; Should have swam faster!" How exactly does a deity expect his followers to learn from anything if he does this to them or kills them before they learn any lessons? What is a person is a devout believer in God, but a poor swimmer and they drown while trying to flee a storm? How fair is that, exactly?
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Are you in the medical profession by any chance?

    Please don't tell me you're one of those people who thanks God when a person is free of cancer, and not the talented doctors who went to school for near or over a decade to practice medicine. You're going there, aren't you?

    Or maybe you're going to speak on the anecdotes of doped up surgery patients who are so high their mega dosage of morphine makes them see a white haze they instantly assume is heaven to confirm the existence of God?
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I take it you have never heard of Biblical archaeology?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology

    I might as well ask you where is the verifiable evidence that God doesn't exist?

    Biblical archaeology? That's about as oxymoronic (emphasize the moronic) as a quiet scream, svelte obesity and a tolerant bigot.

    I might as well ask you where is the verifiable evidence that God doesn't exist?

    Just as one could ask you where your evidence is that he does exist. Because what the majority here seem to have decided on is that only one of these two things can be true:

    1.) God doesn't exist (more likely); this lines up with rational thinking, fossil record, common sense, common decency; etc.

    OR

    2.) God does exist. Only possible conclusion: God is an asshole.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,617
    "I might as well ask you where is the verifiable evidence that God doesn't exist?"

    we have been down this cul de sac so many times both on this thread and as the human race. 5 mins of genuine thought by anyone will then show what an utterly useless statement it is. One thing I will say for the religious: the are consistant in terms of the defences they offer. No matter how shallow they are.

    The inviviation is still open to view the invisble dragon in my garage.

    "God has intervened on our behalf many times in the past"

    One example please. Forget many times , just one exampe

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited September 2017 Posts: 18,281
    I was merely asking if the Wizard was in the medical profession, nothing more than that. Sorry to disappoint you.

    Why do I put myself through this thread? Why did I even create it?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited September 2017 Posts: 9,117
    Why can't you answer two simple questions instead of just prevaricating:

    1. Why does the 'all loving, all powerful' God give babies cancer?

    2. Please give a documented example of God interceding on our behalf?

    You believe in the guy and think he's great so you must have rationalised these things in your own head one presumes so we're just asking you to explain your rationale. Not asking for proof of his existence just your own rationale as a human being who appears to be generally intelligent about other matters.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    My question was simple too but you failed to answer it. Your questions are unanswerable in my opinion as I am not God. I know that will come as a shock to you.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited September 2017 Posts: 9,117
    Fine. Even though I asked mine first I'm happy to answer (although I don't see what my job has to do with anything).

    No I have no connection to the medical profession.

    I'm just an ordinary person who considers cancer in babies something awful and if it is part of some masterplan then it is the masterplan of a psychotic sadist.

    Your turn.


  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,617
    So you know as a fact that God has interceded on our behalf but you dont know how/where/when/why because you are not God? So how do you know he has interceded?

  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    patb wrote: »
    "I might as well ask you where is the verifiable evidence that God doesn't exist?"

    we have been down this cul de sac so many times both on this thread and as the human race. 5 mins of genuine thought by anyone will then show what an utterly useless statement it is. One thing I will say for the religious: the are consistant in terms of the defences they offer. No matter how shallow they are.

    The inviviation is still open to view the invisble dragon in my garage.

    "God has intervened on our behalf many times in the past"

    One example please. Forget many times , just one exampe

    He's got a point
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    patb wrote: »
    "I might as well ask you where is the verifiable evidence that God doesn't exist?"

    we have been down this cul de sac so many times both on this thread and as the human race. 5 mins of genuine thought by anyone will then show what an utterly useless statement it is. One thing I will say for the religious: the are consistant in terms of the defences they offer. No matter how shallow they are.

    The inviviation is still open to view the invisble dragon in my garage.

    "God has intervened on our behalf many times in the past"

    One example please. Forget many times , just one exampe

    @patb, so that's where Dr. No's dragon got to. Cool.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    My question was simple too but you failed to answer it. Your questions are unanswerable in my opinion as I am not God. I know that will come as a shock to you.

    In the same token (and from our side), your questions are unanswerable because there is no God. In a shut off and heated room, one shouldn't require those in the room to prove that there isn't a breeze. These things can be perceived quite easily.
  • Posts: 4,617
    My dragon has interveved in the past on our behalf. I dont know why/where/how because I am not the dragon.
This discussion has been closed.